Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[whitecrown]

Well, in Hope's case, spoilers:

Jean impregnates Louise Spalding with the Phoenix and her (Jean's) love. I can imagine Jean created Rachel in a similar way. Except it would have been Jean doing that to herself. And since Jean is also "of the Phoenix" maybe she was created by a similar process too. Although it may be that Jean was a key ingredient when the Phoenix was made (or re-made or both if they were the same time). This issue has some interesting implications in that regard.

end of spoilers

Sure, Fall and Rise (along with Jean Grey, Immortal, Dead, and Forever) make a convoluted story (and not just the Phoenix parts), but they have respected the contributions of Jean, Rachel, and Hope to the Phoenix mythos while preserving Jean as the main Phoenix. Rachel and Hope have had essential/pivotal roles as well. The three together are certainly more important to the Phoenix mythos than any of the other hosts and this story reinforces that. This is no small feat and should be commended, imho. Of course they are more than hosts and are literally of the Phoenix.

spoilers:

Louise was a redhead right? I wonder if it may not be easier to retcon Louise as being a lost piece of Jean when Jean/Phoenix was split apart after the events of Endsong. A bit like the main Jean who was living a normal life as a waitress in Phoenix Resurrection. Otherwise I wonder why Jean would impregnate a random woman with the child of the Phoenix. As you said, with Rachel it makes sense that she would do that to herself. I have to admit that Hope was never a character I cared much for, especially after Marvel endlessly teased her connection to Jean and it never paid off, until perhaps now. I'd have a much better opinion of her if she's in fact Jean's other daughter besides Rachel.

end of spoilers Hope works better in the Phoenix trinity that Maddie did as seen below.

[PhoenixStudies]

When it comes to Jean's Phoenix mythos-- what I care about is that Jean is recognized as being the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character or at least that a significant part of her was per Inferno. And that Jean's special and innate connection to the Phoenix is respected. I may love the original idea that it is all Jean's power and potential, but I don't mind it being a higher cosmic force/consciousness that she is connected to and destined to wield. Even if they have separate aspects, they are not completely separate considering they have an "unbreakable" connection and exist in a relationship akin to a circle without beginning or end.

spoilers:

Louise was a redhead right? I wonder if it may not be easier to retcon Louise as being a lost piece of Jean when Jean/Phoenix was split apart after the events of Endsong. A bit like the main Jean who was living a normal life as a waitress in Phoenix Resurrection. Otherwise I wonder why Jean would impregnate a random woman with the child of the Phoenix. As you said, with Rachel it makes sense that she would do that to herself. I have to admit that Hope was never a character I cared much for, especially after Marvel endlessly teased her connection to Jean and it never paid off, until perhaps now. I'd have a much better opinion of her if she's in fact Jean's other daughter besides Rachel.

end of spoilers Hope works better in the Phoenix trinity that Maddie did as seen below.

It is explained in the issue why she does it.

[whitecrown]

When it comes to Jean's Phoenix mythos-- what I care about is that Jean is recognized as being the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character or at least that a significant part of her was per Inferno. And that Jean's special and innate connection to the Phoenix is respected. I may love the original idea that it is all Jean's power and potential, but I don't mind it being a higher cosmic force/consciousness that she is connected to and destined to wield. Even if they have separate aspects, they are not completely separate considering they have an "unbreakable" connection and exist in a relationship akin to a circle without beginning or end.



It is explained in the issue why she does it.

Yes, I agree and I think the idea that Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean is validating that the original Phoenix we saw in the 70s/80s, who became Dark Phoenix, has always been Jean. Not a copy, replica, clone, etc. but the original Jean. I'm fine with the Phoenix being a higher cosmic force that only Jean has a special connection to and can carry the mantle of. Not some firebird that goes around possessing random people on Earth and mostly sticks to redheads like Jean. The former feels closer to the original intent of Jean's mutation evolving into a higher being of existence and also what the original movies mostly went with.

Glad to hear it's explained.

[Tank]

Well, in Hope's case, spoilers:

Jean impregnates Louise Spalding with the Phoenix and her (Jean's) love. I can imagine Jean created Rachel in a similar way. Except it would have been Jean doing that to herself. And since Jean is also "of the Phoenix" maybe she was created by a similar process too. Although it may be that Jean was a key ingredient when the Phoenix was made (or re-made or both if they were the same time). This issue has some interesting implications in that regard.

end of spoilers

Sure, Fall and Rise (along with Jean Grey, Immortal, Dead, and Forever) make a convoluted story (and not just the Phoenix parts), but they have respected the contributions of Jean, Rachel, and Hope to the Phoenix mythos while preserving Jean as the main Phoenix. Rachel and Hope have had essential/pivotal roles as well. The three together are certainly more important to the Phoenix mythos than any of the other hosts and this story reinforces that. This is no small feat and should be commended, imho. Of course they are more than hosts and are literally of the Phoenix.

It’s good to note that even amongst the 3, Jean is the only one who is truly the phoenix. Hope only manifests phoenix powers after Jean initiates it issue 4 of Jean Grey. And Rachel is given access because she is Jean’s daughter but doesnt do so until she touches the holo empathic crystal with Jean’s essence in it. Jean is the common thread, the constant.

[Konja7]

When it comes to Jean's Phoenix mythos-- what I care about is that Jean is recognized as being the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character or at least that a significant part of her was per Inferno. And that Jean's special and innate connection to the Phoenix is respected. I may love the original idea that it is all Jean's power and potential, but I don't mind it being a higher cosmic force/consciousness that she is connected to and destined to wield. Even if they have separate aspects, they are not completely separate considering they have an "unbreakable" connection and exist in a relationship akin to a circle without beginning or end.



It is explained in the issue why she does it.

That's exactly my feelings about Jean and Phoenix. I don't really have issue with the Phoenix Force being a higher cosmic force/consciousness that Jean is connected to and destined to wield.

My biggest issue is about Jean being a clone/copy in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga. I hope the final explanation is that Jean was always there.

[Tank]

That's exactly my feelings about Jean and Phoenix. I don't really have issue with the Phoenix Force being a higher cosmic force/consciousness that Jean is connected to and destined to wield.

My biggest issue is about Jean being a clone/copy in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga. I hope the final explanation is that Jean was always there.

I think the Krakoan era has definitely re-conceptualized this. All the xmen that went through the resurrection protocols are clones with the essence/memories of the original and there is no distinction between the 2. Even when there are 2 of the same like in the case of wolverine and talon, they are considered Laura.
This is the same thing that Jean does on the shuttle when she creates a new body and her mind and essence go there. There is a small spark that was too stubborn but she left it there as a failsafe. A second chance.

I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the resurrection eggs look suspiciously like Jean’s phoenix egg/cocoon.

[Mercury]

When it comes to Jean's Phoenix mythos-- what I care about is that Jean is recognized as being the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character or at least that a significant part of her was per Inferno. And that Jean's special and innate connection to the Phoenix is respected. I may love the original idea that it is all Jean's power and potential, but I don't mind it being a higher cosmic force/consciousness that she is connected to and destined to wield. Even if they have separate aspects, they are not completely separate considering they have an "unbreakable" connection and exist in a relationship akin to a circle without beginning or end.

Perfectly put.

It’s good to note that even amongst the 3, Jean is the only one who is truly the phoenix. Hope only manifests phoenix powers after Jean initiates it issue 4 of Jean Grey. And Rachel is given access because she is Jean’s daughter but doesnt do so until she touches the holo empathic crystal with Jean’s essence in it. Jean is the common thread, the constant.

All of this.

That's exactly my feelings about Jean and Phoenix. I don't really have issue with the Phoenix Force being a higher cosmic force/consciousness that Jean is connected to and destined to wield.

My biggest issue is about Jean being a clone/copy in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga. I hope the final explanation is that Jean was always there.

She's finally accepted that it was always her.

I think the Krakoan era has definitely re-conceptualized this. All the xmen that went through the resurrection protocols are clones with the essence/memories of the original and there is no distinction between the 2. Even when there are 2 of the same like in the case of wolverine and talon, they are considered Laura.
This is the same thing that Jean does on the shuttle when she creates a new body and her mind and essence go there. There is a small spark that was too stubborn but she left it there as a failsafe. A second chance.

I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the resurrection eggs look suspiciously like Jean’s phoenix egg/cocoon.

All of this!

(I really do need to get to bed but couldn't help responding.)

[Havok83]

Interesting that the rule was she had to wear green/gold (no other color scheme like red/gold or white/gold) but no Phoenix costume. Outside of her Marvel Girl costume and first X-Factor costume, that doesn't leave many choices for the green/gold color scheme. I always thought the X-Men Red costume recolored to green/gold looked horrendous.

I really enjoyed especially bc color aside, he drew the costume very well, whereas other artists struggled. I liked it in both color schemes

It’s good to note that even amongst the 3, Jean is the only one who is truly the phoenix. Hope only manifests phoenix powers after Jean initiates it issue 4 of Jean Grey. And Rachel is given access because she is Jean’s daughter but doesnt do so until she touches the holo empathic crystal with Jean’s essence in it. Jean is the common thread, the constant.

You mean now? Because Hope deinitely has manifested Phoenix powers in the past

[PhoenixStudies]

It’s good to note that even amongst the 3, Jean is the only one who is truly the phoenix. Hope only manifests phoenix powers after Jean initiates it issue 4 of Jean Grey. And Rachel is given access because she is Jean’s daughter but doesnt do so until she touches the holo empathic crystal with Jean’s essence in it. Jean is the common thread, the constant.

Yes, definitely. Jean Grey #4 and X-Men Forever #4 explicitly shows where Hope's Phoenix powers came from. It was "mother-me" all along. lol

Yeah Rachel claimed the powers of Phoenix as her birthright as Jean's daughter when she touched the holo-empathic crystal with Jean's essence in it. They later retconned and said the Phoenix followed her into the timestream because her essence was similar to Jean's but again, her connection to Jean was important. Later they said it liked Rachel's spiritual strength.

But this current story with Jean, Rachel, and Hope helping to spoilers:

re-create/create the Phoenix

end of spoilers certainly further solidifies their place in the Phoenix mythos. Of course Jean was the key ingredient. Rachel said they needed Jean for it to work. It was Jean's WHR self with her mind and memories on a pyre of krakoan wood that Rachel impued with the essences of multiple universes provided by the M'Kraan Crystal via Prodigy. Hope provided the first spark to ignite the pyre and the spark was Jean's fire. spoilers:

Hope also provides the last spark but that also ultimately came from Jean as Jean impregnated Louise with it.

end of spoilers

[Konja7]

spoilers:

Hope being another daughter of Jean and a creation of the Phoenix is interesting. This means that both of Jean's daughters are essentially virgin births with their "fathers" being the Phoenix. I wonder if that could also imply that Hope is 616 Rachel.

end of spoilers It would also mean that Jean only seems to have male children when they're produced with Scott as a biological father (Nathan Christopher, Nate Grey). I wonder if that could imply tampering by Sinister especially considering his original origin that he was a long-lived mutant stuck in the body of a kid that never aged and needed a new host body. Makes sense he would favor a male child with the Summers-Grey bloodline for himself. Meanwhile, the Phoenix's messiah children, like Rachel and Hope, are always female like Jean, because they're a product of the Phoenix itself.

spoilers:

One question, has it been established that Rachel is only Jean's biological daughter? I've understood Claremont planned that, but it was never confirmed on the stories, right?

end of spoilers

[whitecrown]

spoilers:

One question, has it been established that Rachel is only Jean's biological daughter? I've understood Claremont planned that, but it was never confirmed on the stories, right?

end of spoilers

It's one of those things that he seeded many implications and hints toward, much like the idea of Lorna being Magneto's daughter, Kurt being Mystique's son, and Logan being Sabretooth's son, but never fully stated. All of the following are canon now minus the Logan/Sabretooth connection.

UXM 140.5 is what really brings it to the canon.



Beyond that, in his classic run, there were mainly just hints. Galactus tries to separate the Phoenix from Rachel but attempting to do so causes the stars to die and universe to follow. Roma warns him that it's impossible to sever that bond with the implication being that the Phoenix and Rachel are intrinsically tied due to her unique conception. Similarly, Ahab turned Scott and Sue into hounds to locate Rachel and Franklin. Hounds can detect their blood relations but while Sue could find Franklin, Scott couldn't find Rachel. Ahab was confused by this and the implication here was also that Scott wasn't Rachel's biological father.




Rachel being a multiversal anomaly, who doesn't exist in any alternate reality, is also something Claremont touched upon multiple times with Rachel, including during the 2000s Reload period.

During Excalibur's Cross-Time Caper, Rachel noted that she never encountered another version of her unlike the rest of the team. This was also due to her being the child of the Phoenix and thus no other version of her existed. Another reason why Claremont never included her in X-Men Forever, because that was an alternate reality so Rachel couldn't exist there.

The implication is that the few Rachels that do exist in other realities, like in What If? stories and such, would be Rachels who are the daughters of Jean with Scott or Logan or whoever and aren't a direct child of the Phoenix. So all the Rachels who produced Hyperstorm with Franklin wouldn't be our Rachel who was born to the Phoenix itself.

I really enjoyed especially bc color aside, he drew the costume very well, whereas other artists struggled. I liked it in both color schemes

The green/yellow version was very ugly to me and an eyesore. I didn't like the original red/blue color scheme but it grew on me because it was new for Jean and also such a staple color scheme for superheroes that it really felt like a good non-Phoenix look for Jean to establish her as one of Marvel's leading ladies. For example, with the Captain Marvel comparisons. The real Marvels are these two.

[MarvelMaster616]

Jean should NOT join the Avengers.

There, I said it.

[Gray Lensman]

Jean should NOT join the Avengers.

There, I said it.

The Annihilators (or whatever that cosmic team is) would be a good fit. Or maybe I just think seeing Beta Ray Bill again would be cool.

[Exodus]

Jean should NOT join the Avengers.

There, I said it.

I agree. Maybe an Avengers/X-men unity squad but never the Avengers themselves.

[Exodus]

by the way, I LOVE the new Hope reveal.