Alex Summers: Havok Appreciation 2024 Cry Havok 4 the Nexus being Goblin Prince

[whitecrown]

Thanks. Its wild that he didnt know Scott was with X-Factor though as they were public figures that did press conferences and even the X-terminators made the news. Its one thing I really hated about the books back then; how contrived the secret of X-Factor was and how there was no obvious communication

It's the same logic by which the X-Men never realize Jean is alive until Ororo discovers shortly before Inferno. Magneto saw the O5 as X-Factor during the Mutant Massacre but never tells the X-Men. Logan senses Jean's scent in the Morlock tunnels but doesn't tell anyone until Ororo confronts him.

In Alex and Lorna's case, it was a little more plausible because they seemed fairly isolated in New Mexico with little awareness of what's going on beyond their lives. I don't see a TV in their home and they don't seem like the type who'd keep constant contact with the rest of the X-Men. I think even when they get called in as reserve X-Men in UXM 145-146, it's because Xavier or the X-Men contact them first, rather than vice-versa. Alex and Scott were never close to bother keeping in touch much after the wedding (I'm curious when Alex found out he was going to become an uncle or if he even met baby Nathan before Inferno) and Lorna's main friendships were with Jean and Bobby. Jean was dead and Bobby an awkward ex she's probably not going to be in touch with because of Alex. They probably spent more time with Moira and Jamie on Muir Island than they ever did with the rest of the new X-Men team.

[EmeraldGladiator]

that's the beauty of the Claremont era where some books just say look away at obvious gaps he kind of addresses them. The why didn't Havok question is logical but Claremont had the explanation set up.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Funny looking at those old Lorna/Alex scenes I remember how they were constantly portrayed as the "not about this forever X-men life" and at the first opportunity would separate themselves back into the "real" world. I was cool but ambivalent about them as characters and as a couple. Alex didn't become my favorite male x-character until the post mutant massacre all the way through the Outback/Inferno era. However most Lorna stans HATE them as a couple. For me Lorna is Alex's Lana Lang or Gwen Stacey, a great one but not THE one. For most Lorna stans Alex is the greatest evil ever perpetuated on a beloved character besides bad writers.

[WarrensForgottenMemoryLoss]

Welp, speaking of Outbreak Alex, there was that part I had accidentally put o the X-Factor thread when I meant it for this Alex thread...

So, after the new X-factor discussions lead me to go on a bit of a rant about poor Alex and his a) inconsistent opinions on Human-mutant relations. b)regular governemental and governemental-adjacent work while still having a big sheet as a mutant terrorist, I thought back to the Claremont days and how Alex was REALLY unwell in the direct aftermath of Inferno.

Still, re-reading it, when we are at #249, Alex thinks he kileld Storm in an accident, Lorna calls because she is in danger, and... Oh boy. The opening is worriesome.
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And by the time they are fighting Lorna's kidnappers.

[WarrensForgottenMemoryLoss]

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Well, I did remember Alex commented that he felt killing Gabriel was the one thing he would be more willing to do than Scott, and later answers to "X-Men don't kill" by "Good thing I quit, then." (I don't remember exactly what Alex had said at that point, I'm paraphrasing.)

Okay, so him being opposed to the violent killings during issue 1 of Dark X-men was either the same lack of knowledge of the character's history than claiming Alex came up with the Havok title when that was Larry Trask's idea, OR Alex had come to be a lot more pacific post-AXIS, which, I mean, make more sense with what was up in Hellions, and that series was honestly a good use of Alex in my opinion. So I presume AXIS made Alex more remorseful than he used to be.

Still, Alex scaring Betsy because of his willingless to torture is wild given how both have evolved since then.

Anybody else often thinks about Alex being... hem, a bit more morally dubious at times than some remember? Him getting treated by many as Madelyne's passive dog in recent comics is kind of wild given how often Alex seems ready to dirty his hands, under other writers. (There was also that time in the 90's X-Factor where Alex express surprise to a guy he just blasted surviving. Sure, he was pissed, but did he just shot at the bodyguard of a foreign leader with the intent to kill. WHILE being a U.S. agent??!?)

[kcekada]

Funny looking at those old Lorna/Alex scenes I remember how they were constantly portrayed as the "not about this forever X-men life" and at the first opportunity would separate themselves back into the "real" world. I was cool but ambivalent about them as characters and as a couple. Alex didn't become my favorite male x-character until the post mutant massacre all the way through the Outback/Inferno era. However most Lorna stans HATE them as a couple. For me Lorna is Alex's Lana Lang or Gwen Stacey, a great one but not THE one. For most Lorna stans Alex is the greatest evil ever perpetuated on a beloved character besides bad writers.

I'm a Havolaris fan through and through --- but from their pre-Malice days. Can't stand Alex with Madeline -- a character I despise.

[EmeraldGladiator]

It is nice to meet a Havolaris fan, the people on the Polaris board hate the idea of them together with a passion. I like Alex with Lorna but I love him with Maddy, something about how Claremont spun their love story in the Outback era made me forever a fan of the two of them. I maintain that the Maddy that has appeared since Inferno isn't the real Maddy until she came back in Hellions. The thing that makes Alex and Maddy a great couple is what makes Alex and Lorna a good couple. They are both outsiders that don't feel like they measure up to others. In both cases in comparison to Scottt and Jean.

[whitecrown]

I used to be a major Havolaris fan. They were a duo for me. My thoughts changed on them when I realized that Marvel didn't really see them as a duo except when it came to Lorna. Lorna was always latched onto Alex but Alex was allowed to be a full-fledged character without Lorna (Outback X-Men, Uncanny Avengers).

And the biggest thing for me that killed them as a couple was seeing how many times Alex wronged Lorna. First by blaming her for the Malice possession (which to be fair, the rest of the X-Men seemed to do as well even if Alex was the worst offender) and feeling betrayed by her for something she had no control over. And then for all the Nurse Annie nonsense.

That's why I think they're better off separate now and I've grown to appreciate Alex/Maddie. Lorna's never really had an alternative love interest besides Bobby and even that's out of the cards now for her.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Depending on how how she is portrayed, because there is a version of Lorna just like C. Reyes, I would love Lorna on X-Factor as well. The best way to get Lorna past Alex, put them in same book and show her moving on and Alex being cool with it because he is all about Maddy. I am team Alex and Maddy but I really love Lorna as a character too and her being in X-Factor would only be a plus. Some say Sunfire, I would prefer Bishop or Sunspot because I want them on the Factor roster eventually. For all the hell he has put Lorna through she deserves him as the supportive ex. "You better treat her better than I did or I will introduce you to my dark side".

[kcekada]

I used to be a major Havolaris fan. They were a duo for me. My thoughts changed on them when I realized that Marvel didn't really see them as a duo except when it came to Lorna. Lorna was always latched onto Alex but Alex was allowed to be a full-fledged character without Lorna (Outback X-Men, Uncanny Avengers).

And the biggest thing for me that killed them as a couple was seeing how many times Alex wronged Lorna. First by blaming her for the Malice possession (which to be fair, the rest of the X-Men seemed to do as well even if Alex was the worst offender) and feeling betrayed by her for something she had no control over. And then for all the Nurse Annie nonsense.

I agree. That was all crap, and Claremont is to blame for starting it. Of course, he was writing soap opera in those days -- though he would likely not agree.

I'm not a shipper, but liked the Lorna/Alex combo since I was introduced to both characters (kind of) at the same time in X-Men #100 and love their designs and power sets. It was a bonus to realize the two were a couple later. But beyond the character design -- I thought it was very forward to have them shacking up in New Mexico. I wish there would have been at least one story focusing on them in that era, but despite Claremont having control of the due -- he used them too sparingly and often to poor effect (the Mutant X story).

At this point, I don't think a reunion is in the cards nor should it be without a lot of character work. I didn't read much of the outback era, so have no affinity for that version of Madeline.

[EmeraldGladiator]

kcek, I would recomment you give it a shot start around issue #219 and ride it till the end of the Uncanny run pre Blue Team Gold team issue #277 Alex and Maddy have never been written better and it is my favorite era of Uncanny...period.(plus lots of gorgeous art from Silvestri and Jim Lee.)

[Havok83]

Depending on how how she is portrayed, because there is a version of Lorna just like C. Reyes, I would love Lorna on X-Factor as well. The best way to get Lorna past Alex, put them in same book and show her moving on and Alex being cool with it because he is all about Maddy. I am team Alex and Maddy but I really love Lorna as a character too and her being in X-Factor would only be a plus. Some say Sunfire, I would prefer Bishop or Sunspot because I want them on the Factor roster eventually. For all the hell he has put Lorna through she deserves him as the supportive ex. "You better treat her better than I did or I will introduce you to my dark side".

IMO that would be awful for Lorna nad be more about pushing his own character arc with Maddie. We dont need to see Lorna moving on from Alex bc she already has. Putting her back in a scenario where she has to face her past with him yet again isnt healthy. If she appears in X-Factor, it shouldnt be on his team but rather leading her own resistance group that may come into conflict with his.

I also think that being on a government sponsored team no longer makes sense for her. It did back in the earl 90s when really had no character development but in the decades since, she's become a strong proponent for mutantkind, leaning more towards Magneto and she has the trauma of Genosha that informs her decisions. The government has failed mutants multiple times including when they pushed the mutant vaccine following Disassembled and most recently letting Orchis run amok. At this stage, it would feel OOC for her to be a willing member of anything government sanction bc she of all people wouldnt trust them and she'd side eye those that did. The Lorna of today will kill if she has to and that mindset just doesnt work on X-Factor. I think this version of the team would conflict too much with the character she has evolved into

[kcekada]

Maybe Lorna will lead a new Brotherhood -- of (not Evil) Mutants. Kinda like X-Force but more geared to protecting mutant kind from bigots and shady government agencies.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Lorna on a rival faction might be fun. Personally I like the character and want to see her written well somewhere. For all the hype about her winning the contest of main X-Men membership and let me say I wasn't that into the Krakoan era so I might have missed something but all Lorna got out of this past era is becoming a coffee meme. Lorna for me in PAD's X-Factor was well written but didn't have a voice yet. Lornastans who I repect say Genosha was her finding her voice and that had nothing to do with Alex, so I never understand the incessant fear of Lorna being in proximity of Alex. To ignore their history is a disservice but there is no need to constantly retell the same story with them either. I am excited for Factor because Alex is a fave and because of that I want as many cool characters associated with the title as possible so that I get more Alex, so I am stanning for Maddy, Bishop, Lorna, DeCosta.
Back to Alex, I want all the physical and mental stuff either retconned, ignored completely or rectified in the first issue, no more inversion, face scar or zombie body parts. I would also like to do away with the inferiority complex when it comes to Scott. Alex can acknowledge they have too different leadership styles and leave it at that. I would like for a writer to detail how are their styles different. In my mind Scott is a Bill Belicheck "no days off" examine every possilble detail type while Alex is a Sean McVay, new school affirmations, "being your best when your best is required" outside the box flexibility. Scott is very "Art of War" but those rules don't work against an Alex whose moves are less predictable or for Alex who is more fluid and constantly adjusting his actions to fit changing situations. Just like some people thrive in jobs where their every move has been planned so that once learning the task it can become muscle memory while for others that would be death and they crave a workplace where variety is often the case to keep things fresh.

[Havok83]

Lorna on a rival faction might be fun. Personally I like the character and want to see her written well somewhere. For all the hype about her winning the contest of main X-Men membership and let me say I wasn't that into the Krakoan era so I might have missed something but all Lorna got out of this past era is becoming a coffee meme. Lorna for me in PAD's X-Factor was well written but didn't have a voice yet. Lornastans who I repect say Genosha was her finding her voice and that had nothing to do with Alex, so I never understand the incessant fear of Lorna being in proximity of Alex. To ignore their history is a disservice but there is no need to constantly retell the same story with them either. I am excited for Factor because Alex is a fave and because of that I want as many cool characters associated with the title as possible so that I get more Alex, so I am stanning for Maddy, Bishop, Lorna, DeCosta.
Back to Alex, I want all the physical and mental stuff either retconned, ignored completely or rectified in the first issue, no more inversion, face scar or zombie body parts. I would also like to do away with the inferiority complex when it comes to Scott. Alex can acknowledge they have too different leadership styles and leave it at that. I would like for a writer to detail how are their styles different. In my mind Scott is a Bill Belicheck "no days off" examine every possilble detail type while Alex is a Sean McVay, new school affirmations, "being your best when your best is required" outside the box flexibility. Scott is very "Art of War" but those rules don't work against an Alex whose moves are less predictable or for Alex who is more fluid and constantly adjusting his actions to fit changing situations. Just like some people thrive in jobs where their every move has been planned so that once learning the task it can become muscle memory while for others that would be death and they crave a workplace where variety is often the case to keep things fresh.

but where has their history been ignored? Its been felt throughout Krakoa. In X of Swords, the first Hellfire Gala, X-Factor....Alex has come up for her. They dont need to be within the same proximity or team for it to be acknowledged. Is the reverse done though? Im failing to think of a time when Alex mentions or realls Lorna when they arent in a scene together. I think thats partially bc they did give him a nw love interest to focus on. Lorna isnt afforded that same opportunity