Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[whitecrown]

This scene always made me laugh. Xavier reprimands Warren for not paying attention to the road while Warren is busy thinking about moving on from Jean. I'm really curious if Xavier was just going by Warren's lack of attention and body language or if he's really privy to everything Warren and Scott are thinking here. Too bad we don't get a peek at Xavier's thoughts on this love square.

[Hakka84]

It physically pained me to read the panels in the Dazzler's review.
I don't think I will ever re-read that mess of a comic book (well, it's not a mess for Dazzler - it's that Warren who is a mess).

(thank you Thievery. I hope the mods intervention will prevent further returning to the theme. But really, the discussion ruined my excitement)

This scene always made me laugh. Xavier reprimands Warren for not paying attention to the road while Warren is busy thinking about moving on from Jean. I'm really curious if Xavier was just going by Warren's lack of attention and body language or if he's really privy to everything Warren and Scott are thinking here. Too bad we don't get a peek at Xavier's thoughts on this love square.

Knowing Xavier, he was following the drama with some psy-popcorn ready on the astral plane.
...
... let's pretend the whole "Xavier is in love with Jean" never happened. Ok?
So he's just a spectator for the (not)teenager drama

[Thievery]

For the question about if Warren and Candy were a thing when he was seeing Dazzler, I found this source. It's a review of Dazzler #17 when Warren first joins the book.
https://comicsarcheology.com/index.p...24/dazzler-17/

In the comments section, someone asks if Warren was dating Candy. The reviewer says "there’s a scene I didn’t cover where he mentions they just split up." So it looks like Dazzler #17 did confirm that they were broken up at the time. Which makes me a little more comfortable with Warren's portrayal, but I'm also of the mindset that if he was rejected by a woman once, he'd stop pursuing her. It was a little different with Jean since she never rejected him and I can't remember any of his other love interests rejecting him at first.

I must have missed this issue when I read the old Dazzler series. I really hate this comic now. Warren is undoubtably a stalker in those scenes. He's not just pursuing a relationship with a woman, he's being a creep.

[Hakka84]

I must have missed this issue when I read the old Dazzler series. I really hate this comic now. Warren is undoubtably a stalker in those scenes. He's not just pursuing a relationship with a woman, he's being a creep.

More likely your mind blanked out on that issue and decided for your own sanity to erase it. I too didn't remember it was that much bad. I barely recalled that he insisted on a date (which might happen in a later page / next issue, won't check!), but... this. Gods, what a mess.

[Thievery]

Well, despite what just about everyone who posts in this thread thought, Archangel does have a spot in the new era of the X-Men.

So What do people think about the idea of Angel working for the government. I wouldn't have expected it, but at least it is new for him.

And other than Havok, Archangel hasn't really spent a lot of time working with his new teammates on panel. So there are some opportunities for interactions with essentially new teammates.

I would picture Angel going to work for the government for one of two reasons.

First, maybe because he wants to make amends to society for his involvement in making the medicines that were contaminated, and thinks that working for a government team would give him a better chance to do that than working for an outlaw team like the X-Men.
Or, secondly, maybe he chooses to work for the government because of his business. You can't really be part of a known outlaw team and then try to show up at the billion dollar business that you own and not expect to be arrested.

Can Anyone else come up with some other reason for Angel to join the government.

[Hakka84]

Hm.
Not sure if we should give Marvel this much credit. But, if we consider all of Warren's history since he sprouted his wings, I think he had literally tried every way and venue. He started when the mutants were accepted and considered like other superheroes of the era, he was there when the tide turned, he was in front line when the first attempt to wipe them happened (= sentinels), he had his attempt at "normal" superhero twice (Champions and Defenders), he had a role in the X-Factor fiasco (an attempt to both appease the general public and save mutants at the same time, which we know backfired spectacularly) and was even acclaimed hero when he still was wearing Apocalypse's colors. He also did try to keep some relations with governments (when he temporarily was the face of mutants and addressed the UE parliament) and even worked together with the San Francisco's major. Oh, and as First Class, he basically started his career when the X-Men still interfaced with a government agent.
X-Men Forever is a mess, but in this Claremont was right, when he put in Nick Fury's a comment about the X-Men who hide in the shadow and do whatever they want uncaring for any sort of law (so Fury needed to stay with them to keep them on check). We readers know the X-Men are good, but even superheroes should abide to some law. I think the Avengers have some government clearing or what. X-Men cross borders and fly their blackbirds wherever they feel, with no respect for sovereignty.

We know that the MU is lived by bigots who never learn from their mistakes nor they evolve. But in a more realistic world... well, how do you (mutants) hope to gain respect when your frontline team acts like a groups of renegades? When literally the difference between "benevolent superpowered who save the world" and "uberpowered people set on conquering the world" depends on just these X-Men's very ethics - and it just needs a telepath or a magic spell to turn them from heroes to villains?
I mean, one of the core definitions of X-Men is "a band of outlawed heroes". Which says enough, IMHO.
Hm, sorry, I digressed. And I might've sparked Civil War Steve/Tony 2.0. :lol:

I think, as a billionaire owning an enterprise, Warren must have come to know how to work on the tiny balance between law and well, not law. So he might want to try the "law" way, in an attempt to prove that mutants can work with the law and can be as respectable as the Avengers without being an Avengers team or being babysat by Steve Rogers.
I think most of the MU people (right or wrong) have come to associate mutants to outlaws superpowered people who don't abide to any law and essentially do what they want unchecked. And Warren might want to fight that prejudice.
Also, let's not forget that during Krakoa-era, mutants established that "they policed their own", going so far as to expect a mutant who committed a crime in, say, Seattle, would be handed over to Krakoa for judgment. It makes not for good publicity, IMHO, because it suggests that law isn't fair and mutants don't bother with human laws (laws made by people elected through democratic means). X-Factor could be the reply to this: not a full-mutant team policing mutants on the basis on some mutant-law, but a full-mutant team working like any other superhero team, with government ties to validate it, and abiding to human-made law.

IDK if what I wrote made sense.

Another hypothesis could be that, seen the whole Orchis thing, Warren might want to be closer to the government to be in a place to avoid a new Orchis to happen?

[K7P5V]

Warren brought Candy with him to visit the Drake's, so I'd say they were very seriously an item at that point.

Indeed. Here's proof...

When they leave the Drakes, Candy mentions that they return to the penthouse to catch some sleep.

Verily, among other things...

[whitecrown]

Not a very good sign of Warren's fidelity if even in that last panel, he's thinking about Moondragon. It wasn't really his fault because of her psychic manipulations (she was doing them on Bobby too) but still.

And I forgot how old the Drakes looked in the 80s. They were relatively younger looking in the 90s.

This is the panel from Dazzler #17, when he first appears in that series, and explains his relationship (or lack of) with Candy. So while recuperating from his fight with Ghost Rider, he began to re-evaluate his relationship with Candy and decide he wanted to explore other women...although it's never explicitly stated if this lead to a breakup or if he just decided to make this decision without consulting Candy.

[Hakka84]

You're still threading on thin ice, Warren. *facepalm*

I mean, not sure which age Warren was supposed to be, but I think it was very well into the "settle down" age, especially for the 80s. So yeah, while it would make sense for him to let his eyes wander around after being (years?) with Candy... it's still a big no to me.
Luckily the author who took over Warren from here (Defenders) ignored this and gave us Candy "flatscan" ally and leader of superhero team.

[whitecrown]

You're still threading on thin ice, Warren. *facepalm*

I mean, not sure which age Warren was supposed to be, but I think it was very well into the "settle down" age, especially for the 80s. So yeah, while it would make sense for him to let his eyes wander around after being (years?) with Candy... it's still a big no to me.
Luckily the author who took over Warren from here (Defenders) ignored this and gave us Candy "flatscan" ally and leader of superhero team.

Jean was 24 when she died and Warren was her age so presumably he'd be in his mid-20s during this era. And keep in mind that according to Claremont, Kitty Pryde turns 14 during the Brood Saga. And she turns 15 during Excalibur's Cross-Time Caper, which means that in one year all of the following happened: Cyclops and Maddie meet and their wedding, Storm being depowered, Magneto's reformation, Nathan's birth, Jean's return, X-Factor's founding, the X-Men's sacrifice to defeat the Adversary, Excalibur's founding, and Inferno.

It's a big no for me too. Another reason I disregard those Dazzler issues. I was thinking about getting the upcoming Dazzler omnibus to add to my X-Men Omnibus collection, but frankly just the treatment of Warren in those issues is enough reason for me to not want to purchase it. And I'm glad Defenders ignored that and brought Candy back as a major character (even if X-Factor ended up killing her off which I do feel was a mistake. I'd rather she just have been in hiding or captivity, if they felt Archangel wouldn't work with Candy around, so they could bring her back later on).

[K7P5V]

You're still threading on thin ice, Warren. *facepalm*

I mean, not sure which age Warren was supposed to be, but I think it was very well into the "settle down" age, especially for the 80s. So yeah, while it would make sense for him to let his eyes wander around after being (years?) with Candy... it's still a big no to me.
Luckily the author who took over Warren from here (Defenders) ignored this and gave us Candy "flatscan" ally and leader of superhero team.

...and that author's name is Peter B. Gillis, truly a genius move (IMHO):

[berserkerclaw]

I do wonder about hus ArchAngel form. And maybe he doing it like you said about the Medicine. Also tontry giving Mutants good Pr after Krakoas fall.

[Thievery]

Hm.
Not sure if we should give Marvel this much credit. But, if we consider all of Warren's history since he sprouted his wings, I think he had literally tried every way and venue. He started when the mutants were accepted and considered like other superheroes of the era, he was there when the tide turned, he was in front line when the first attempt to wipe them happened (= sentinels), he had his attempt at "normal" superhero twice (Champions and Defenders), he had a role in the X-Factor fiasco (an attempt to both appease the general public and save mutants at the same time, which we know backfired spectacularly) and was even acclaimed hero when he still was wearing Apocalypse's colors. He also did try to keep some relations with governments (when he temporarily was the face of mutants and addressed the UE parliament) and even worked together with the San Francisco's major. Oh, and as First Class, he basically started his career when the X-Men still interfaced with a government agent.
X-Men Forever is a mess, but in this Claremont was right, when he put in Nick Fury's a comment about the X-Men who hide in the shadow and do whatever they want uncaring for any sort of law (so Fury needed to stay with them to keep them on check). We readers know the X-Men are good, but even superheroes should abide to some law. I think the Avengers have some government clearing or what. X-Men cross borders and fly their blackbirds wherever they feel, with no respect for sovereignty.

We know that the MU is lived by bigots who never learn from their mistakes nor they evolve. But in a more realistic world... well, how do you (mutants) hope to gain respect when your frontline team acts like a groups of renegades? When literally the difference between "benevolent superpowered who save the world" and "uberpowered people set on conquering the world" depends on just these X-Men's very ethics - and it just needs a telepath or a magic spell to turn them from heroes to villains?
I mean, one of the core definitions of X-Men is "a band of outlawed heroes". Which says enough, IMHO.
Hm, sorry, I digressed. And I might've sparked Civil War Steve/Tony 2.0. :lol:

I think, as a billionaire owning an enterprise, Warren must have come to know how to work on the tiny balance between law and well, not law. So he might want to try the "law" way, in an attempt to prove that mutants can work with the law and can be as respectable as the Avengers without being an Avengers team or being babysat by Steve Rogers.
I think most of the MU people (right or wrong) have come to associate mutants to outlaws superpowered people who don't abide to any law and essentially do what they want unchecked. And Warren might want to fight that prejudice.
Also, let's not forget that during Krakoa-era, mutants established that "they policed their own", going so far as to expect a mutant who committed a crime in, say, Seattle, would be handed over to Krakoa for judgment. It makes not for good publicity, IMHO, because it suggests that law isn't fair and mutants don't bother with human laws (laws made by people elected through democratic means). X-Factor could be the reply to this: not a full-mutant team policing mutants on the basis on some mutant-law, but a full-mutant team working like any other superhero team, with government ties to validate it, and abiding to human-made law.

IDK if what I wrote made sense.

Another hypothesis could be that, seen the whole Orchis thing, Warren might want to be closer to the government to be in a place to avoid a new Orchis to happen?

Sorry for my late response to this. I thought that this post was about Warren/Candy/Dazzler thing.

Your post makes sense.

Basically, in this scenario Warren chooses to join the government to prove that all mutants aren't outlaws that have to be feared. That there is more than one way to fight for mutant rights, and that everyone doesn't have to follow the X-Men way.

So Angel and the others may be trying to position themselves as role models, and not just celebrities.

[Hakka84]

Sorry for my late response to this. I thought that this post was about Warren/Candy/Dazzler thing.

Your post makes sense.

Basically, in this scenario Warren chooses to join the government to prove that all mutants aren't outlaws that have to be feared. That there is more than one way to fight for mutant rights, and that everyone doesn't have to follow the X-Men way.

So Angel and the others may be trying to position themselves as role models, and not just celebrities.

Yep.
Granted, we could all be spectacularly wrong and X-Factor's author has something else in mind.

[Hakka84]

Marvel Unbound sketch card

and base card art

(by Fredian)