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  1. #31
    Spectacular Member Bryan's Avatar
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    I find it sad that some people are so poor that they are literally begging on the street corners. Yeah, some of those people are actually really down and out & need our help. Sadly, there are others who hang out at the corner of Walmart stores with signs stating they need money for food and yet they are dangling cigarettes from their mouths and have umbrellas to keep the sun from their pale white skin & they want cash for drugs!! It can be hard to determine who is the actual needy one. I see so many people who just drive by and throw cash out and I wonder...are you helping or hurting that person??

  2. #32
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Well said.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Nailed it. The concept of 'winners' and 'losers' drives practically everything. Can't have one without the other. So you either change that paradigm, decide to be a winner no matter what, or find some balance in the middle to live out your existence (most of us).
    That's just it, based on -- you know, personal experience, observation, and everything I have learned about human beings from school and personal research and everything else, I really believe that the vast majority of everybody is really just doing the best that they can. Life is a lot of complex pieces moving around all at once, and really we can't know exactly what anyone is dealing with, if we're not in their shoes ... but I guess, the biggest reason I'm going to fault on the side of sympathy?

    Think on it this way, the person you know absolutely the most about, the person you inevitably have spent the most time with and have the most knowledge about, is yourself, right? The only person whose absolute every sin and secret you're aware of, is yourself ... so, whether it's the person begging, when you wonder if they are just trying to get food or if they are going to feed an addiction, or the person who seems to waste their time and money on material or trivial things, rather than saving for the future or bettering their lives ... you know, I feel like, if you have nothing but spite for that person, or you feel certain you know they are just being lazy or stupid or whatever, instead of making understandable mistakes or just having completely relatable, regular flaws ... really, that says more about you, and how you see yourself as a human being, than this complete stranger, whose particular life and challenges you know really nothing about.

    You know, to some extent, other humans are really just a mirror -- so, when I hear that you look at someone and you can somehow see a person that is "garbage" -- kind of, yikes, for what that means for how you can see yourself. Just my thoughts on all that kind of thing, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If everyone tried really hard, worked hard, and made all the right decisions, it would go a long way towards reducing poverty.

    There probably has to be a distinction between the American poor, and the global poor, since the former have more money and resources than the latter (and much of this discussion is about the poor in western industrialized countries that compose the majority of CBR readers and would be the only homeless we interact with) but things would be better if the poor stopped wasting their limited resources, invested what they could, were willing to move to new regions with more favorable economic environments, etc.
    On one hand, when I consider the insane percentage of humanity that does not have access to clean water in 2017, then yeah, I'd agree about global versus American poor. As a country, we have a great deal of wealth and resources. But, if you are homeless in the US, then you also do not have reliable access to running water, electricity and all the conveniences (like heat and the ability to cook food) that it provides, or protection from the elements ... basically, I think that saying a person who has not eaten in a day and does not have a safe place to sleep or really anything besides the possible charity of strangers to guarantee them continued life and health, "has more money and resources" than the poor in another country ... I dunno, well-intended I think, but little more than that.

    Likewise, because not having even protection from the elements is such a horrible prospect, I don't think we should act like people in the US who must spend most of their time and resources keeping a roof over their heads are so very much better off, either. For instance, you talk about being able to move to a place with better economic prospects, as if abject poverty somehow allows you to do that. It totally doesn't. Moving to a new place costs money. And, what kind of economic prospects will there be anyway, for someone with a poor work history? What if you can't afford even nice clothes for an interview? What if you talk like a person who is from a poor economic background? You can say that should not matter, but you know it does. If you have been dirt poor all of your life, the sad truth is that a good deal of what we call economic opportunity will be closed off to you, because you will lack the education and cultural signifiers that would let someone give you a chance.

    Investing, too. If your very real concerns are a roof over your head and just food to eat, you really don't have money to invest. The "wasting resources" part probably gets me the worst though, because for many of us, it seems reasonable to say, well, these people scrabbling just to keep a home and food on the table, how can they then "waste money" on a nice tv or whatever for entertainment. Well, it's because if they had to wait until they were not poor, before they could ever try to enjoy anything, then they would never enjoy anything. At all, ever in their lives, because self-denial is not a magic trick that will make them not poor if they can just hold out long enough. You know, if only it were that simple.
    Last edited by Adam Allen; 11-29-2017 at 08:28 PM.
    We've got the power to be loving each other, no matter what happens -- we've got the power to do that

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    On one hand, when I consider the insane percentage of humanity that does not have access to clean water in 2017, then yeah, I'd agree about global versus American poor. As a country, we have a great deal of wealth and resources. But, if you are homeless in the US, then you also do not have reliable access to running water, electricity and all the conveniences (like heat and the ability to cook food) that it provides, or protection from the elements ... basically, I think that saying a person who has not eaten in a day and does not have a safe place to sleep or really anything besides the possible charity of strangers to guarantee them continued life and health, "has more money and resources" than the poor in another country ... I dunno, well-intended I think, but little more than that.

    Likewise, because not having even protection from the elements is such a horrible prospect, I don't think we should act like people in the US who must spend most of their time and resources keeping a roof over their heads are so very much better off, either. For instance, you talk about being able to move to a place with better economic prospects, as if abject poverty somehow allows you to do that. It totally doesn't. Moving to a new place costs money. And, what kind of economic prospects will there be anyway, for someone with a poor work history? What if you can't afford even nice clothes for an interview? What if you talk like a person who is from a poor economic background? You can say that should not matter, but you know it does. If you have been dirt poor all of your life, the sad truth is that a good deal of what we call economic opportunity will be closed off to you, because you will lack the education and cultural signifiers that would let someone give you a chance.

    Investing, too. If your very real concerns are a roof over your head and just food to eat, you really don't have money to invest. The "wasting resources" part probably gets me the worst though, because for many of us, it seems reasonable to say, well, these people scrabbling just to keep a home and food on the table, how can they then "waste money" on a nice tv or whatever for entertainment. Well, it's because if they had to wait until they were not poor, before they could ever try to enjoy anything, then they would never enjoy anything. At all, ever in their lives, because self-denial is not a magic trick that will make them not poor if they can just hold out long enough. You know, if only it were that simple.
    It's not that simple. I understand that.

    However, I was considering the implications of the thought experiment you stated "What if absolutely, 100% of the people really did everything right, worked hard, and made all the right decisions? Then what? Would there be no more poor people?"

    And things would be better if everyone made the right decisions.

    It's obviously unrealistic, for a variety of reasons. Some people have disorders and medical conditions (sleep deprivation, high stress, learning disabilities resulting from their mother's limited prenatal care) that prevent them from making the right decisions. People have limited information, and won't know what the right decisions are (IE- If you're moving to a new area where you've heard work is available, are you arriving at a boom time, or after a bubble has burst?) An additional problem for individuals is that they can do everything right, but they're still going to live in a world where people around them make poor decisions, and that's going to affect them. They could refrain from buying cigarettes, partaking in drugs, drinking to excess, getting into fights, or using rare windfalls poorly, but if the people around them don't do the same, payday loans will be more expensive, businesses in the area will need to spend more money on security, every now and then they'll have to clean up after someone else's mess, etc.

    But once we're no longer in the world of everyone making the right decisions, we're no longer in that thought experiment.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  4. #34
    DARKSEID LAUGHS... Crazy Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    Obamaphones, as they're called, don't shoot videos or have internet access. They're just phones, nothing else.

    People who scream about paying taxes are very glad to have roads, schools, law enforcement, fire and ambulance service and the countless other things that taxes provide. They just don't want to pay taxes.
    So they're not like the phones you can get prepaid at the store? Because that's what I heard them being described was whenever some ass complained about them on the radio. They made it seem like people benefiting from that federal program were getting iPhones but they were TracFones last I checked.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    People seem very focused, here in the States, on making sure people don't get something they 'haven't earned'. In fact, we're so obsessed with making sure only the 'worthy' and 'deserving' poor get assistance that we'll gladly enable immense suffering because we're afraid someoine, somewhere, might do something unwise with their assistance or bilk the system somehow. I mean, you can see shades of that in this very conversation.

    How about we help everyone first?

  6. #36
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    So they're not like the phones you can get prepaid at the store? Because that's what I heard them being described was whenever some ass complained about them on the radio. They made it seem like people benefiting from that federal program were getting iPhones but they were TracFones last I checked.
    They are from SafeLink Wireless and there are different plans that can be used it depends on the state that you are in, also it is funded by a tax on the phone companies that may are may not be passed on the their customers.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  7. #37
    Mighty Member Ragdoll's Avatar
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    I have nothing against the poor, I'm poor as hell, but I've found that anyone I know who turns homeless is almost always a scummy person who completely earned and deserved the fate of homelessness. I'm sure there's some exceptions I never met, but I'm just saying., most homeless wound up that way by their own choice. Homelessness feels like natural selection, weeding out people who were not happy in society to begin with.
    In TV shows, the homeless are always portrayed as nice folks who politely ask for your spare change. That is not reality, at least where I live. The homeless are aggressive and rude and will try to bully money out of you, and that's if your lucky because many just rob you and I have been threatened before. There are formerly nice parts of town I just don;t go anymore because the homeless clog it up and there's needles everywhere now.

    Anyways, where's the demonization of the poor OP keeps seeing? I only see demonization of the rich in the media, and that is how I like it. Maybe that is based on my taste in media. If I watched the TV shows my grandma does, maybe I'd see the scary poor characters.

  8. #38
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    The Sarah Jane Adventures story delves into this in the story The Curse of Clyde Langer.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Among the middle class, and even the poor, there's often a religious element to it: God wouldn't let them be poor unless it's His Will, for whatever reason.
    Does anyone really think that?

  10. #40
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Does anyone really think that?
    I don't doubt it.
    I have often been told by church people that my health issues for instance are because god has a plan with me. And our religious nuts are way milder than America's.

    Big part of why I became an atheist.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragdoll View Post
    I have nothing against the poor, I'm poor as hell, but I've found that anyone I know who turns homeless is almost always a scummy person who completely earned and deserved the fate of homelessness. I'm sure there's some exceptions I never met, but I'm just saying., most homeless wound up that way by their own choice. Homelessness feels like natural selection, weeding out people who were not happy in society to begin with.
    In TV shows, the homeless are always portrayed as nice folks who politely ask for your spare change. That is not reality, at least where I live. The homeless are aggressive and rude and will try to bully money out of you, and that's if your lucky because many just rob you and I have been threatened before. There are formerly nice parts of town I just don;t go anymore because the homeless clog it up and there's needles everywhere now.

    Anyways, where's the demonization of the poor OP keeps seeing? I only see demonization of the rich in the media, and that is how I like it. Maybe that is based on my taste in media. If I watched the TV shows my grandma does, maybe I'd see the scary poor characters.
    .... welp, thanks for showing that the thread title is right.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    .... welp, thanks for showing that the thread title is right.
    jeez, right?

    I live near two cities that have a fair amount of homeless

    society demonizes the homeless because it flies in the face of the BS "work hard and youll be fine" narrative

    some people just get s**t on - it happened to me, I got out of the service with a gambling problem while going to college, gambled myself out of college and my apartment, lived in my car for 3 months and couch surfed - took me a year to get my s**t together but I did, but I also didn't have any severe mental or physical issues stopping me from working

    there are people who end up homeless because they are mentally disabled, their primary caregiver (usually a parent or relative) dies and there is no one left to take care of them and they slip through the cracks

  13. #43
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    .... welp, thanks for showing that the thread title is right.
    Whoa! No kidding. Words just fail me.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  14. #44
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    I can second this as I speak to many in that position in my job.

    I like how everybody in this thread who is complaining about lazy screw ups and the like have outright ignored your statement and its implications.

    Finger pointing is way easier that addressing the disappearance of the manufacturing sector and the implications of same.
    Yeah, i saw so many families in shelters, or just riding around on buses just to have somewhere to be, in addition to staying in hospital waiting rooms (that's what me an my family did). And there's NEVER enough "funds" to help anybody. A lot of those homeless people you could tell never been homeless before, or didn't even look homeless (we didn't look homeless either, but i suspect that our luggage gave it away in some cases)..

  15. #45
    Swollen Member GOLGO 13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    .... welp, thanks for showing that the thread title is right.
    Bootstraps people, BOOTSTRAPS!!!

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