Why doesn’t DC have any successful minority superheroes?

[Jim Kelly]

Girls and boys equally consumed a lot of comics when I was a kid (back in the 1960s) and you can see that there were several super-hero comics that would have appealed to girls.

Wonder Woman was probably such a success in the 1940s because she was a character that boys, girls, men and women all equally enjoyed--likewise with the original Captain Marvel, whose comics sold in the millions and appealed to the whole family.

In the 1960s, it's pretty clear that both boys and girls were reading about Supergirl and Lois Lane. And the Legion of Super-Heroes is noted for being a team that had great appeal for female readers--as that team had so many strong female characters.

Beyond super-heroes, of course, there were lots of other kinds of comics in the 1960s. So girls were looking at the spinner racks and buying Archie, Harvey, Dell and Gold Key comics. And sampling stuff from DC and Marvel--mostly romance, Sugar & Spike and teen humour, but they were more likely to discover a super-hero or two also.

What happened in the 1970s is that sales declined and, as comics moved into the comic shops with lower print runs, Marvel and DC targeted those who were most likely to be in the comic shops--which were teen and young adult males looking for male super-hero comics. And the women in those comics also tended to be male fantasies, without many qualities that women could appreciate.

[skyvolt2000]

Wasn't there a study a few years back that showed the number of female readers is increasing? Or am I imagining that?

Yes there was. Depending on who you read the female numbers is 37-47% of all comic readers are female. The fastest growing is women age 17-33.

https://www.npr.org/2017/04/08/52304...ics-readership

So even if it's true that a core cohort of longtime readers prefer to stick to the old, male, white heroes, industry surveys show that the fastest growing demographic — there's that word again — of comics readers are women aged 17-33.

And Fantom's Ly says that means that readers who reject diversity are gonna have to get used to a new normal.

"They're such a vocal minority at this point," she says, "because they've had everything to themselves for so long, and now they kind of have to share it — and they don't want to."

http://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-40-...t-fine-thanks/

AND here’s that demographic info you’ve been waiting for–and is that a confirmation of Disney market research, whose invisible hand I’m been suspecting for years?

Again it’s still kind of anecdotal. From things that we gather from some analysis that Disney does on who is buying Marvel as a brand, and from talking to retailers and looking at our titles, we’re probably up to at least 40% female, which eight years ago might have been 10%. And 15 years ago might have been nothing, while they were all buying manga. So there’s really been a shift, which is great, and it even could be even higher than 40%. I’m sure if you go into some retail shops in different parts of the country, that’ll be 50-60% female, and some lower. But that’s about what we’re seeing now. We also get some stats from digital; they’re a little better at knowing who the customer is.

The publishers are giving us minority books. We're not buying them. Sometimes we can blame the quality on that (New52 Static). Sometimes we can't (New Super-Man). Seems to me that some of the blame here is on us.

It still falls back on the publisher. When the public is telling you a book is bad (Static Shock) and explain WHY-that is not a green light to get rid of the lead.

If the public tells you budget is a reason they can't buy New Superman Monthly yet trade sales are better than guys named Jessica, Simon & Cyborg-maybe a OGN might be the best option.

Or the public tells you got stores who will NOT order the book even after multiple folks asked-what is DC & Marvel going to do about that? It's happening.

Or you got regions where POC lead book don't sell no matter what. Or the harassment of fans at certain stores-like children getting cussed out or women chased out of stores for asking about certain books.

Especially when you got certain fans DEMANDING those book stay out of stores. Because they are intimidated by them.

The excuse of "we tried" don't work anymore.

Earlier in the thread we were talking about the last time a new white male character got a solo book.

Why would you need to make a new one? You got a huge collection to play with and toss out in books.

Meanwhile your editors won't let you use this POC or that POC or won't listen to pitches using certain others. So we get new ones in franchises that don't need them.

[Ascended]

Yes there was. Depending on who you read the female numbers is 37-47% of all comic readers are female. The fastest growing is women age 17-33.

Nice, glad I wasn't imagining that.

It still falls back on the publisher. When the public is telling you a book is bad (Static Shock) and explain WHY-that is not a green light to get rid of the lead.

Well, Static isn't a great example due to all the royalty rights and ownership issues and whatnot, but I get what you're saying. But look at the canceled characters who have come back in one form or another; Cass Cain has played a major role in Detective for example. Its not another solo series for her, but she's here, and aside from her first series, her other solo books havent done too well so who could blame DC for easing back on her (for now)?

Or the public tells you got stores who will NOT order the book even after multiple folks asked-what is DC & Marvel going to do about that? It's happening.

That's not on DC or Marvel or the publishers. That bulls**t is on the store owners and there is nothing publishers can do about that. What, are they gonna say "Order this book no one in your sh*t-hole town will buy or we won't sell you any of our comics!"?

Oh, wait. The publishers did do something about that. It's called same-day-digital.

Or you got regions where POC lead book don't sell no matter what. Or the harassment of fans at certain stores-like children getting cussed out or women chased out of stores for asking about certain books.

Especially when you got certain fans DEMANDING those book stay out of stores. Because they are intimidated by them.

Still not on the publishers. That's on the store owners. If there is actually a demand for the books these stores won't carry, then someone should open a new store or run a protest in front of the racist douchebags and shame them into being halfway decent people.

[Doctor Bifrost]

That's an interesting accent.. Where are you from, the Land of Attempted Belittlement? Because that's the only time I ever see "muh" thrown around...

My rabble has not yet begun to rouse!

I was ironically quoting someone who was belittling the fight for representation - a fight I am 100% behind. (I also do not know what accent the person intended that to be, only that it was meant to be derogatory.)

[El_Gato]

DC> Marvel in Diversity. DC does diversity waaaay better than Marvel. Marvel does U.S. based diversity, their diverse characters are always obsess with being a diverse character, that just does not ring true outside of the U.S. It's so bad in marvel than they make things like America Chavez... to this day the people who i'v seen hate it the most are Mexicans, and as one im glad, because it was cringy and embarrassing.

America Chavez is a good character that was written terribly in her solo series. She's not the best recent example of Marvel diversity, but that's besides the point.

I think the point of the thread was to point out Marvel has several minority characters with long running books or character's with over 100 issues to their name, while DC doesn't. Ms Marvel, Miles and Moon Girl still have titles, while DC just cancelled a few of theirs. Sure Marvel has cancelled minority titles before (ie Nova) but those characters still pop up elsewhere, usually in team books. Meanwhile their DC counterparts aren't afforded the same privilege.

So in a way you could say Marvel does diversity for the most privileged, the people living in the richests country's in the world, while DC does when it feels natural. Ill take Maya Ducard any day over America Chavez, even if she barely appears anymore, in fact i rather Maya never appears than if she came along every so often to complain about how her skin color make her important and oppressed or something. And America it's not even the only one... recently marvel did the mini Falcon guy... why most every hispanic use the hated spanglish? because that's what the most priviledge hispanics do, speak spanglish and live in the richest country in the world, the rest of the Spanish speaking world hate's it.

No offence but this just comes off as nothing but ignorant stereotypes for a variety of reasons.

1)America isn't the richest country in the world, we're just the most influential at the moment. We're trillions of dollars in debt!

2)You do realize colorism and basically the caste system is still alive and well in Latin America right? So why do you get upset when racism and prejudice/oppression is addressed? At least Americans address our social issues, Latin American counties like to pretend everything is fine and sweep them under the rug.

3)Just because a Latino is from the USA doesn't mean they're rich or privileged. Often times its quite the opposite. Also, Spanglish is just something that developed because kids were being taught in English at school and talked to in Spanish at home.

So if you ask me, ill take DC over Marvel falseness every day, part of the big reason i stopped reading marvel is i just didn't recognize the universe anymore, my favorite heroes where gone and replaced, to this day, DC has yet to replace my bridge character Damian Wayne, though there is a tumblr campaing to make him brown because rich kids have nothing better to do, he is still the original, the moment they change that, im taking my brown behind out of DC comics, i like Damian as he is, i don't need people to be my same skin color to feel represented, that's a very first world nation thing.

You do realize that Damian has non White ancestry right? Assuming Ras is White, he's 1/8 Arab, 1/8 Chinese, and 1/4 Jewish (some people consider Jews non White but I don't know). He should be darker than Bruce, Dick, Tim and the others and racially ambiguous, but some artists forget that. Also look up Aramis Knight, he's basically a live action Damian Wayne.

As to why? i imagine $, market speaks, and though priviledge Americans have tons of money to control the market unlike other's, so gladly in the US the demographics haven't move that much to make the radical unrealistic change's marvel did that ruined their universe for me and for many other's who stopped buying (their sale's are pretty telling if you ask me.)

You do realize Marvel has higher sales than DC right? Its been that way for a good while now.

[Daniel22]

I was ironically quoting someone who was belittling the fight for representation - a fight I am 100% behind. (I also do not know what accent the person intended that to be, only that it was meant to be derogatory.)

Oh yeah, I understood that! Sorry I wasn't clear. Yeah it's such a patronizing phrase, basically code for "shut up about the silly thing you are making too big a deal out of". All sorts of people do it and it's just so lazy and condescending that I stop hearing their argument sometimes.

[Iconic]

I feel it's obvious that DC wants Cyborg to be the guy, but that's not going to happen until they realize that he needs to be a wish-fulfilment.

Stop holding him back.

The concept of Cyborg is greater than what they've shown us he is. People want to believe in what he supposed to be. That advanced alien technology. DC has told us what he is, but haven't backed it up on the pages we've read.

Back. It. Up.

If we're to believe his look on the cover solicit for issue #21, then that's one step in the right direction. The next step? Make us proud of him. Make us want to be him. Why isn't he already the ultimate hybrid of man and machine?

Is his creator, Marv Wolfman, the man to finally advance and elevate Victor once and for all?

[Robotman]

I feel it's obvious that DC wants Cyborg to be the guy, but that's not going to happen until they realize that he needs to be a wish-fulfilment.

Stop holding him back.

The concept of Cyborg is greater than what they've shown us he is. People want to believe in what he supposed to be. That advanced alien technology. DC has told us what he is, but haven't backed it up on the pages we've read.

Back. It. Up.

If we're to believe his look on the cover solicit for issue #21, then that's one step in the right direction. The next step? Make us proud of him. Make us want to be him. Why isn't he already the ultimate hybrid of man and machine?

Is his creator, Marv Wolfman, the man to finally advance and elevate Victor once and for all?

Pretty much this. It’s been painful to see all the missteps they’ve made with Cyborg. David Walker and Ivan Reis were the only ones to have Vic on the right track. The only way Cyborg will work is if they ditch the “am I man or machine” schtick and make him more of a wish fulfillment character.

Bring back the super cool DCYou design, embrace the New God tech, and ditch the depressed “freak” character personality. There is a ton of potential with having a cyborg character. But it seems like everything with Cyborg has been one step forward and two steps back.

[ross61]

DC has been overtaking Marvel for quite some time now. Marvel just cheats the numbers to make it look like their doing well.

How someone is able to hold up Marvel when they just cancelled an entire WAVE or minority characters is beyond me.

[El_Gato]

At this point I'm getting tired of complaining about DC's treatment of minority heroes on forums/social media. The lack of promotion and push they get or the fact they're treated as expendable, easily replaced by new minority characters fulfilling the same role...etc. I'm sticking around until the No Justice event is finished and the new status quo is revealed (team lineups). If I don't like what I see, then I'll vote with my wallet and take my business elsewhere. I'd suggest others on this thread who share my views do the same

[Marvell2100]

At this point I'm getting tired of complaining about DC's treatment of minority heroes on forums/social media. The lack of promotion and push they get or the fact they're treated as expendable, easily replaced by new minority characters fulfilling the same role...etc. I'm sticking around until the No Justice event is finished and the new status quo is revealed (team lineups). If I don't like what I see, then I'll vote with my wallet and take my business elsewhere. I'd suggest others on this thread who share my views do the same

Lion's Forge.

[Ascended]

I feel it's obvious that DC wants Cyborg to be the guy, but that's not going to happen until they realize that he needs to be a wish-fulfilment.

Stop holding him back.

The concept of Cyborg is greater than what they've shown us he is. People want to believe in what he supposed to be. That advanced alien technology. DC has told us what he is, but haven't backed it up on the pages we've read.

Back. It. Up.

If we're to believe his look on the cover solicit for issue #21, then that's one step in the right direction. The next step? Make us proud of him. Make us want to be him. Why isn't he already the ultimate hybrid of man and machine?

Is his creator, Marv Wolfman, the man to finally advance and elevate Victor once and for all?

Well said man. Great post.

Someone earlier in this thread (or maybe another one?) said something about Vic, and how's the PoC DC is pushing but he's a character no one wants to be.

I want to be Cyborg.

Vic Stone is the only person who doesn't want to be Vic Stone. I would happily take what he's got. Lots of other people would too. Prometheum chassis, genius level intellect, Boom Tube access, friggin MOTHER BOX technology? Written to his potential, Vic is probably the most dangerous person on earth and as capable and powerful as Superman or Wonder Woman or anyone else short of Darkseid. And he's the end game the human race is actually running towards; from household computers to handheld devices to wearable tech and now we're dipping a toe into digital implants....we're spending decades and trillions of dollars trying to be what Cyborg already is. You're damn right I wouldn't argue with being him.

The only deal breaker for me would be his capability to....um.....satisfy his girl. If you get my meaning. And we know that....those parts.....work fine. So yeah, sign me up for a Mother Box heart and a badass cybernetic eye!

DC needs to get with the gods damn program and recognize what they've got in Victor Stone. That dude is legit, they just need to f**king write him that way!

[Ascended]

The only way Cyborg will work is if they ditch the “am I man or machine” schtick and make him more of a wish fulfillment character.

It needs to stop being "Am I man or machine?" and become "Am I man, or more than man?"

What's funny is that the only version of Vic who struggles with this is the comics version. The TTGO version seems totally fine with what he is. The Injustice version is like, the ultimate representation of Vic Stone....except he totally backs Superman's Regime. But as he himself says in some of his intro dialogue, he's "half machine, but ALL man!" He doesn't fret over his humanity or whether he has a soul or any of that existential crap. He knows his value is not weighed by the amount of organic tissue he has, he knows his worth and he doesn't take sh*t from anyone. He's powerful, capable, confident.....aside from the fact that he's backed a tyrant trying to rule the world, Injustice Vic is the best Vic out there.

Oh, I guess the JL movie Cyborg also struggled with himself a bit too.....but seemed to make peace with it by the film's end.

[Iconic]

Lion's Forge.

Lion Forge indeed. Favorite line of books with Noble being tops among them. They're getting it done.

It needs to stop being "Am I man or machine?" and become "Am I man, or more than man?"

What's funny is that the only version of Vic who struggles with this is the comics version. The TTGO version seems totally fine with what he is. The Injustice version is like, the ultimate representation of Vic Stone....except he totally backs Superman's Regime. But as he himself says in some of his intro dialogue, he's "half machine, but ALL man!" He doesn't fret over his humanity or whether he has a soul or any of that existential crap. He knows his value is not weighed by the amount of organic tissue he has, he knows his worth and he doesn't take sh*t from anyone. He's powerful, capable, confident.....aside from the fact that he's backed a tyrant trying to rule the world, Injustice Vic is the best Vic out there.

Oh, I guess the JL movie Cyborg also struggled with himself a bit too.....but seemed to make peace with it by the film's end.

The last thing I want to do is read about a black man who doesn't know his value or who can't even figure out if he's human. Not a good look at all.

[ross61]

If you were supporting black people in comics than you would be up for all of their experiences and viewpoints.