T'Challa: Black Panther Appreciation 2018

[XPac]

I don't really get where you're getting at XPac.

I'm pretty sure T'Challa during his Stan Lee/McGregor days didn't have a Vibranium weave. I'm pretty sure Priest gave him the suit (as well as other tech gear like the Kimoyo card, energy daggers and energy dampening soles) because he felt it was only natural that the king of a technologically advanced nation should be running around in something more than just regular spandex (that seemed to get torn all the time). T'Challa has pretty much unlimited access to Vibranium, so why shouldn't he use it to the fullest. That was how Priest thought and that's how we ended up with the "classic" and definitive loadout, so to speak.

However, I and Ezyo (and others) are simply talking about the natural progression of powers and abilities that has happened every other character. The limits of Superman's strength and display of other powers gradually increased over decades. Batman has gone from being a guy in a Halloween costume to a man who has mastered 127 martial arts, and constantly has shown increased intellect and access to technology, particular by having a more and more advanced Batsuit. Nobody will outright say the earliest versions of these characters are the definitive and best ones, and these natural progressions are largely accepted because they both make sense and don't take away from who the character is. Hell, some characters like Namor lose some of their abilities because they've aged badly or don't make sense. You really think characters like the Hulk and Aquaman were always as strong as they are now?

Personally, I feel as though what I have been suggesting does not take away from who T'Challa is at all. Having a Vibranium suit that can absorb energy from powerful blows should mean just that. If blows from Killmonger and Namor don't hurt T'Challa as much as they would if they hit his bare skin, I don't see why it should be considered a problem. That's the point of having armour, and back when T'Challa could take blows from the Hulk in his suit, Nightshade was able to work around by using a chemical the melted off his suit, and a bloodlusted Iron Fist destroyed parts of it by hitting it several times in quick succession. It's not impossible to beat T'Challa in a Vibranium suit. People would just have to be smarter with it. It's like being mad most people wouldn't beat the Hulk in a fistfight even when there are other ways to do so.

The kinetic energy absorption thing is no big deal either. In the MCU, T'Challa was taken out by Killmonger using a grenade launcher, a charging rhino, and Thanos. All of these three examples had the suit be overloaded with energy which is why he was knocked down. Klaw's sound canon was able to dissipate the energy in the suit, and Shuri's panther blasters were affecting Killmonger's then enhanced hearing. And T'Challa was able to beat Killmonger who was wearing the same kind of suit by using the mine train's sonic destabilisers to affect his suit and expose his skin. So again, it wouldn't be impossible to beat him if he had that suit. Some writer just has to establish a set of weaknesses that can be worked around. Which is why Superman has Kryptonite, magic and red suns.

The point I've been trying to make is that giving T'Challa different suits for different occasions is not who he is. T'Challa isn't the "I got beat by X so I gotta make a new suit or use a different one that can beat X". Iron Man is first and foremost an inventor which is why he does that most of the time. T'Challa on the other hand is first and foremost a warrior. He should be able to fight and have a victory over his enemies with the tools he has at his current disposal. If he can't do that for most of his rogues, then he's an unprepared hero and not fit to be Black Panther. You don't see Batman whipping out a new device every time he fights a different member of his rogues. He uses what he has because it is versatile and functional enough to handle them. That's what it should be about. You achieve this by having a standard which you naturally progress over time as tastes and the times change and evolve, as well as concepts of science and sci-fi evolve.

Having this doesn't mean T'Challa can't be beaten. This is what people who constantly accuse T'Challa of being OP or a Mary Sue fail to understand because they can't think creatively. There are still many ways one can come up with a successful attack plan on T'Challa is a writer is actually willing to think of one that makes sense. The problem is that most BP writers now don't have that mentality.

In Rise, it's retconned so he had a vibranium suit with the ability to absorb kinetic force (enough to take a hit from Namor) all along. He just didn't use it for whatever afterwards reason. Obviously the actual reason is because it didn't exist in the comics at the time... why he didn't use it from a storytelling standpoint we can only speculate.

But nonetheless it does establish that he has chosen NOT to utilize this technology in his suits despite having it. Which is basically why it's very easy to justify him not using it all the time now. He hasn't for decades, so him not using it all the time now wouldn't be out of character. Hudlin reinforces the idea with his light weight armor, which was used very selectively.

Not that any of this matters because again, the suit will be as effective or ineffective as the story dictates it needs to be. The issue of him being OP in certain lower end situations is only a theretical problem, not a practical one. If he's fighting Killmonger and is punched, it'll hurt even if he can take Namor level damage in a different story. Doesn't make sense, but that's how comics work. All I am doing is presenting an explanation as to why it works that way in his specific case, outside of lazy writing.

[Ezyo1000]

It's also established that Daredevil can take a shot from Namor without getting shotted. The problem isn't that this doesn't happen in comics... the problem is that it doesn't make sense. But it's comics... that sort of thing happens. I get that. I'm merely suggesting that when an actual explanation can occur outside of bad writing, might as well go with that.

And in this case, an easy explanation is that the kinetic absortion feature doesn't exist in all his suits. Given we've seen no evidence of it till Coates run (because obviously it doesn't exist yet, despite it being invented prior to everything we've seen up to that point), it's therefore logical to assume he does in fact have multiple suits. Some without it, and at least one with it. To say he's had this ability the entire time with the suits hes wearing obviously wouldn't make sense.

But you're right... no one makes a fuss out of any of this, which is why there's no reason for marvel do to anything. They can continue to have the suit be as effective or ineffective as it needs to in the story, because to 99.99% of the readers it doesn't matter. It doesn't make sense and is lazy writing... but since no one makes a fuss out of it anyways, there's no reason not to do it unless a writer feels otherwise.

If Daredevil takes a shot from Namor and it's just a one time deal. It gets forgotten. In T'Challas case it's established that he can take hits from Namor and not be KOed. Priest, Hickman, Evans and JA bhave akk established this. There is no explanation needed because it's the habit/durability. Force push doesn't need explanation, because it frankly doesn't matter, unless Evans planned to retell all of Priest/Hudlin's/ Liss etc stories then it doesn't matter that his mini shows he had the tech from the start. He was consolating all the origins while addressing skne of Coates current run..

This isn't bad writing, if anything it's good because he is trying to address continuity in a logical manner rather then just saying something is the case without care

[Cville]

I don't really get where you're getting at XPac.

I'm pretty sure T'Challa during his Stan Lee/McGregor days didn't have a Vibranium weave. I'm pretty sure Priest gave him the suit (as well as other tech gear like the Kimoyo card, energy daggers and energy dampening soles) because he felt it was only natural that the king of a technologically advanced nation should be running around in something more than just regular spandex (that seemed to get torn all the time). T'Challa has pretty much unlimited access to Vibranium, so why shouldn't he use it to the fullest. That was how Priest thought and that's how we ended up with the "classic" and definitive loadout, so to speak.

However, I and Ezyo (and others) are simply talking about the natural progression of powers and abilities that has happened every other character. The limits of Superman's strength and display of other powers gradually increased over decades. Batman has gone from being a guy in a Halloween costume to a man who has mastered 127 martial arts, and constantly has shown increased intellect and access to technology, particular by having a more and more advanced Batsuit. Nobody will outright say the earliest versions of these characters are the definitive and best ones, and these natural progressions are largely accepted because they both make sense and don't take away from who the character is. Hell, some characters like Namor lose some of their abilities because they've aged badly or don't make sense. You really think characters like the Hulk and Aquaman were always as strong as they are now?

Personally, I feel as though what I have been suggesting does not take away from who T'Challa is at all. Having a Vibranium suit that can absorb energy from powerful blows should mean just that. If blows from Killmonger and Namor don't hurt T'Challa as much as they would if they hit his bare skin, I don't see why it should be considered a problem. That's the point of having armour, and back when T'Challa could take blows from the Hulk in his suit, Nightshade was able to work around by using a chemical the melted off his suit, and a bloodlusted Iron Fist destroyed parts of it by hitting it several times in quick succession. It's not impossible to beat T'Challa in a Vibranium suit. People would just have to be smarter with it. It's like being mad most people wouldn't beat the Hulk in a fistfight even when there are other ways to do so.

The kinetic energy absorption thing is no big deal either. In the MCU, T'Challa was taken out by Killmonger using a grenade launcher, a charging rhino, and Thanos. All of these three examples had the suit be overloaded with energy which is why he was knocked down. Klaw's sound canon was able to dissipate the energy in the suit, and Shuri's panther blasters were affecting Killmonger's then enhanced hearing. And T'Challa was able to beat Killmonger who was wearing the same kind of suit by using the mine train's sonic destabilisers to affect his suit and expose his skin. So again, it wouldn't be impossible to beat him if he had that suit. Some writer just has to establish a set of weaknesses that can be worked around. Which is why Superman has Kryptonite, magic and red suns.

The point I've been trying to make is that giving T'Challa different suits for different occasions is not who he is. T'Challa isn't the "I got beat by X so I gotta make a new suit or use a different one that can beat X". Iron Man is first and foremost an inventor which is why he does that most of the time. T'Challa on the other hand is first and foremost a warrior. He should be able to fight and have a victory over his enemies with the tools he has at his current disposal. If he can't do that for most of his rogues, then he's an unprepared hero and not fit to be Black Panther. You don't see Batman whipping out a new device every time he fights a different member of his rogues. He uses what he has because it is versatile and functional enough to handle them. That's what it should be about. You achieve this by having a standard which you naturally progress over time as tastes and the times change and evolve, as well as concepts of science and sci-fi evolve.

Having this doesn't mean T'Challa can't be beaten. This is what people who constantly accuse T'Challa of being OP or a Mary Sue fail to understand because they can't think creatively. There are still many ways one can come up with a successful attack plan on T'Challa is a writer is actually willing to think of one that makes sense. The problem is that most BP writers now don't have that mentality.

This is not true. Batman has weapons for rouges his normal gear won't work on. Ice grenades for Clay Face. I think he has something for Mr. Freeze. Hulkbuster for Bane sometimes. And the myriad of different functions and upgrades of the Batmobile.
Kryptonite in the belt for Superman.

[XPac]

If Daredevil takes a shot from Namor and it's just a one time deal. It gets forgotten. In T'Challas case it's established that he can take hits from Namor and not be KOed. Priest, Hickman, Evans and JA bhave akk established this. There is no explanation needed because it's the habit/durability. Force push doesn't need explanation, because it frankly doesn't matter, unless Evans planned to retell all of Priest/Hudlin's/ Liss etc stories then it doesn't matter that his mini shows he had the tech from the start. He was consolating all the origins while addressing skne of Coates current run..

This isn't bad writing, if anything it's good because he is trying to address continuity in a logical manner rather then just saying something is the case without care

And IF he's capable of taking hits from Namor, then a hit from Killmonger should be completely ineffective. But it is. That's where the inconsistency lies. Namor should likely be several hundred times more powerful than Killmonger, so if he can be hurt by Killmonger then a shot from Namor should KO him (if not outright kill him). It shouldn't work both ways if it's the same person in the same suit with the same properties.

But it does, because comics work that way. Again, I'm just proposing an explanation beyond simple lazy writing.

[Blind Wedjat]

This is not true. Batman has weapons for rouges his normal gear won't work on. Ice grenades for Clay Face. I think he has something for Mr. Freeze. Hulkbuster for Bane sometimes. And the myriad of different functions and upgrades of the Batmobile.
Kryptonite in the belt for Superman.

I see, my bad then. But does he usually carry those around or are they a prep thing?

[Mike_Murdock]

If Daredevil takes a shot from Namor and it's just a one time deal. It gets forgotten.

It's one of Daredevil's more famous silver age issues where he fights Namor and never gives up while Namor keeps knocking him down. So I don't think it's been forgotten even if it was atypical.

[Cville]

And IF he's capable of taking hits from Namor, then a hit from Killmonger should be completely ineffective. But it is. That's where the inconsistency lies. Namor should likely be several hundred times more powerful than Killmonger, so if he can be hurt by Killmonger then a shot from Namor should KO him (if not outright kill him). It shouldn't work both ways if it's the same person in the same suit with the same properties.

But it does, because comics work that way. Again, I'm just proposing an explanation beyond simple lazy writing.

That more of the "Vibranium Plot Physics". Lol. Bullets and edged weapons, no problem. But punches and kicks.... lol

[Blind Wedjat]

And IF he's capable of taking hits from Namor, then a hit from Killmonger should be completely ineffective. But it is. That's where the inconsistency lies. Namor should likely be several hundred times more powerful than Killmonger, so if he can be hurt by Killmonger then a shot from Namor should KO him (if not outright kill him). It shouldn't work both ways if it's the same person in the same suit with the same properties.

But it does, because comics work that way. Again, I'm just proposing an explanation beyond simple lazy writing.

He has taken many hits from Iron Fist before, so I don't see the problem.

And look, Killmonger is not a dumbass. If punching T'Challa won't do anything, then he wouldn't punch him. Simple as that. Find another way around. That's my point.

I should add I don't expect T'Challa to completely no-sell a true punch from Namor. It should hurt him, but the suit should absorb some of the energy so it doesn't break his jaw or whatever. It's Vibranium for crying out loud. Let it act that way.

This is how it's been working since Priest. Coates run only added the option to redirect it.

[Cville]

I see, my bad then. But does he usually carry those around or are they a prep thing?

Based on Heroes in Crisis he seems to carry Kr all the time. Lol. I think it comes down to if he knows he is going to fight them. Usually he loses then has to go get or make the gear if he runs into them on standard patrol.

[Blind Wedjat]

That more of the "Vibranium Plot Physics". Lol. Bullets and edged weapons, no problem. But punches and kicks.... lol

I'm pretty sure edged weapons don't work anymore since there are no seams in the suit. Haven't seen him being cut for a long time.

And I'm glad the movie showed someone punching T'Challa in the head would hurt them instead with the suit on. An enhanced guy kicking and punching him on his level should just stagger and annoy, but not draw blood or anything like that. The suit is close to his skin after all.

[Cville]

He has taken many hits from Iron Fist before, so I don't see the problem.

And look, Killmonger is not a dumbass. If punching T'Challa won't do anything, then he wouldn't punch him. Simple as that. Find another way around. That's my point.

I should add I don't expect T'Challa to completely no-sell a true punch from Namor. It should hurt him, but the suit should absorb some of the energy so it doesn't break his jaw or whatever. It's Vibranium for crying out loud. Let it act that way.

This is how it's been working since Priest. Coates run only added the option to redirect it.

I've seen him take a knife to the chest. It breaks because of the Vb. But then punches and knees seem to work.
Coates is not the first for energy redirection. Aaron used it when he "fought" Storm in AvX.

[Blind Wedjat]

Based on Heroes in Crisis he seems to carry Kr all the time. Lol. I think it comes down to if he knows he is going to fight them. Usually he loses then has to go get or make the gear if he runs into them on standard patrol.

Well, my point still stands more or less, I think. It's not as if I'm saying T'Challa needs to be constantly walking around with the sand that dehydrates Namor all the time. Just have a standard layout that means if Namor decides to surprise him, he wouldn't be totally overwhelmed. He can still lose, but he should put up a good fight.

I just don't see why T'Challa can't be allowed to do this. Deathstroke has gone against so many heroes that seem above his pay grade at a glance like Wonder Woman and the Flash, but he's able to fight them because he's got the intellect, the gear, and the skill. I don't see much complaining in that regard. It shouldn't be different for T'Challa.

[Marvell2100]

He used a specialized suit to fight Cho when he was Hulk, so he does seem willing to take a page out of Tonys playbook in this regard. And under Hudlin he did have light weight armor when he faced other armored opponents (Iron Man, Doom the first time, and Killmonger). So it's established that he will use different suits on occasion. It's very infrequent though.

He's also faced Thanos, Black Dwarf, Iron Man and Ultron in his regular habit. That's the point. It's infrequent and should not become a regular pattern. He should have one suit he wears that should be sufficient for most situations.

[Blind Wedjat]

I've seen him take a knife to the chest. It breaks because of the Vb. But then punches and knees seem to work.
Coates is not the first for energy redirection. Aaron used it when he "fought" Storm in AvX.

Which goes back to my point about consistency and a lack of creativity. I know it's comics but, punches and kicks shouldn't be "working". Annoy, stagger, send backwards, whatever. But depending on the weight class they should either hurt the other guy or hurt but not completely. In the MCU with his suit on, Bucky and Cap can both hit him and it staggers him, but he doesn't get hurt. That's how it should be.

T'Challa just needs better writers. Simple as that.

Btw I meant in the kinetic energy redistribution sense. I know he could do that with Storm's lightning.

[Cville]

Well, my point still stands more or less, I think. It's not as if I'm saying T'Challa needs to be constantly walking around with the sand that dehydrates Namor all the time. Just have a standard layout that means if Namor decides to surprise him, he wouldn't be totally overwhelmed. He can still lose, but he should put up a good fight.

I just don't see why T'Challa can't be allowed to do this. Deathstroke has gone against so many heroes that seem above his pay grade at a glance like Wonder Woman and the Flash, but he's able to fight them because he's got the intellect, the gear, and the skill. I don't see much complaining in that regard. It shouldn't be different for T'Challa.

But if he knew he was going to run into Namor, you would expect him to have something to deal with him? Or his standard gear has to be OP enough(which I dont have a problem with) that he can deal with anyone. The down side is when he fight street level, there would be no genuine threat. Unless it magic or something.
I'm personally not against OP. Animes like Gate, Overloard, and How not to Summon a Demon have shown that its possible to have a good show with an overpowered protagonist.