Tony Stark, at the end of, Civil War

[Tony Stark]

I dunno man, that sounds pretty awesome.

IMO it's just so messed up for Pym. He deserved better and the Avengers should have done more to help him.

[Huntsman Spider]

IMO it's just so messed up for Pym. He deserved better and the Avengers should have done more to help him.

My sentiments exactly, and Pymtron called them out on it beautifully in Secret Empire, noting that many of the members that sanctimoniously looked their noses down on him had done things that were just as bad as, if not worse than, anything Pym had done, yet were forgiven and granted second (or third, or even fourth) chances. For example, to tie this back to the original Civil War, if you think about it, Pym was the only one with clean hands because he'd been replaced by a Skrull all along, whereas Captain America and Iron Man both tarnished themselves to greater or lesser degrees, depending on your personal view of who was right or not. Of course, both of them were still respected (if not revered, in Cap's case) as heroes despite their actions leading directly or indirectly to a lot of death and destruction throughout that event and its aftermath. At least Pym didn't intend to create a mass murder weapon when he made Ultron, whereas Tony, with help from Reed Richards and Skrull!Pym, deliberately cloned Thor to use as a big gun against his foes and then failed to ensure that safeties were in place to keep said metaphorical gun from killing anyone that he didn't intend to kill. And yet he's treated as the worst of them when there's a long string of failures and frankly f***ups behind the Avengers as a whole.

[Tony Stark]

My sentiments exactly, and Pymtron called them out on it beautifully in Secret Empire, noting that many of the members that sanctimoniously looked their noses down on him had done things that were just as bad as, if not worse than, anything Pym had done, yet were forgiven and granted second (or third, or even fourth) chances. For example, to tie this back to the original Civil War, if you think about it, Pym was the only one with clean hands because he'd been replaced by a Skrull all along, whereas Captain America and Iron Man both tarnished themselves to greater or lesser degrees, depending on your personal view of who was right or not. Of course, both of them were still respected (if not revered, in Cap's case) as heroes despite their actions leading directly or indirectly to a lot of death and destruction throughout that event and its aftermath. At least Pym didn't intend to create a mass murder weapon when he made Ultron, whereas Tony, with help from Reed Richards and Skrull!Pym, deliberately cloned Thor to use as a big gun against his foes and then failed to ensure that safeties were in place to keep said metaphorical gun from killing anyone that he didn't intend to kill. And yet he's treated as the worst of them when there's a long string of failures and frankly f***ups behind the Avengers as a whole.

In agreement here. Although it's never been stated I always thought that SkrullPym purposely sabotaged the Thor clone to turn the heroes against each other more.

[Huntsman Spider]

In agreement here. Although it's never been stated I always thought that SkrullPym purposely sabotaged the Thor clone to turn the heroes against each other more.

That would actually make sense, but it would've gotten in the way of the idea Marvel wanted to push that there wasn't some "Big Bad villain" to blame for the heroes' violent fracture, just a horrific tragedy that exacerbated the preexisting tensions and divisions within their ranks until they reached a breaking point. Of course, if you were to insist on there being a villain, it could just as easily be the in-universe U.S. government that exploited the aforementioned horrific tragedy for political gain, turning all superheroes into convenient scapegoats for the public to lash out against (rather than deal with just how and why actual law enforcement was incapable of keeping dangerous super-criminals contained for very long) and force into a corner. On that much, Steve Rogers/Captain America was right; superheroes did need to stay above and apart from political concerns, or else they'd end up as nothing more than living weapons pointed at whomever Washington, D.C. said the enemy was. As disgusted as I was with some of Tony Stark/Iron Man's methods, I could at least understand the reasoning that it was a necessary evil to placate the public and prevent more superheroes from being attacked by angry mobs like Johnny Storm/Human Torch and Robbie Baldwin/Speedball were. In the end, though, neither's actions did the wider superhero community or the world that many favors, especially for enabling Norman Osborn's rise to power as the Iron Patriot, which in retrospect felt a lot more like Marvel saying to fans and readers, "You thought Tony was a fascist? You haven't seen s*** yet."

[Michael Watkins]

the skrull most certainly did tamper with the Thor clone. sorry iron man haters.

[Michael Watkins]

My sentiments exactly, and Pymtron called them out on it beautifully in Secret Empire, noting that many of the members that sanctimoniously looked their noses down on him had done things that were just as bad as, if not worse than, anything Pym had done,

that's one way to interpret it. I took it (as Iron Man interpreted it) as it really being Pym and not just Ultron impersonating Pym. because he kept trying to deflect and point out the mistakes others had made instead of accounting for his own. he was being extremely whiny. I get why Pym fans might see it as the character putting the others in their place. but you'd have to read right over Stark explicitly saying that Pym beating up Jan is what caused the Avengers rift, in the first place. his words rung true. they were the heart of the team. and Pym ruined all of that. this was driven home by the reveal that he was aiding the anti-secret empire side simply because it would lead to more violence.

yet were forgiven and granted second (or third, or even fourth) chances.

respectfully, that is bullcrap. they let Pym right back into the roster without bringing up his treasonous actions. and he has been invited back several times (apparently Tony is the only one who cared about Janet). Stark has never asked for forgiveness. he just assembles a team. and they follow him because he's a leader. Steve Rogers once hunted Tony through time and space to get revenge. so Pym can get in line if he wants to talk about being mistreated.

For example, to tie this back to the original Civil War, if you think about it, Pym was the only one with clean hands because he'd been replaced by a Skrull all along,

his hands were the dirtiest. the most devastating blows that the skrulls struck were done with Pym's brain. and he, a founding avenger, let himself be duped by a skrull (all while trying to get back at Jan). all it had to do was stroke his ego a bit. and he was the perfect dupe because he had ruined his own reputation/had the image of being unstable. there was no way for the others to suspect him as a skrull because he's generally flaky/unpredictable. do I even need to bring up how he abandoned Jack of Hearts at a critical moment (to go strut around Vegas naked)?



does it not bother anyone that Pym's most identifiable characteristic is his woe-as-me attitude?

[Marvell2100]

the skrull most certainly did tamper with the Thor clone. sorry iron man haters.

Yeah, that part is pretty clear.

I don't like how Tony was written at all in this event, particularly outside of his own title. Hatchet job all the way.

[Tony Stark]

the skrull most certainly did tamper with the Thor clone. sorry iron man haters.

Yeah, that part is pretty clear.

I don't like how Tony was written at all in this event, particularly outside of his own title. Hatchet job all the way.

I remember seeing SkrullPym messing with it in Avengers The Initiative. I'm pretty sure he did sabotage it.

[Huntsman Spider]

that's one way to interpret it. I took it (as Iron Man interpreted it) as it really being Pym and not just Ultron impersonating Pym. because he kept trying to deflect and point out the mistakes others had made instead of accounting for his own. he was being extremely whiny. I get why Pym fans might see it as the character putting the others in their place. but you'd have to read right over Stark explicitly saying that Pym beating up Jan is what caused the Avengers rift, in the first place. his words rung true. they were the heart of the team. and Pym ruined all of that. this was driven home by the reveal that he was aiding the anti-secret empire side simply because it would lead to more violence.




respectfully, that is bullcrap. they let Pym right back into the roster without bringing up his treasonous actions. and he has been invited back several times (apparently Tony is the only one who cared about Janet). Stark has never asked for forgiveness. he just assembles a team. and they follow him because he's a leader. Steve Rogers once hunted Tony through time and space to get revenge. so Pym can get in line if he wants to talk about being mistreated.



his hands were the dirtiest. the most devastating blows that the skrulls struck were done with Pym's brain. and he, a founding avenger, let himself be duped by a skrull (all while trying to get back at Jan). all it had to do was stroke his ego a bit. and he was the perfect dupe because he had ruined his own reputation/had the image of being unstable. there was no way for the others to suspect him as a skrull because he's generally flaky/unpredictable. do I even need to bring up how he abandoned Jack of Hearts at a critical moment (to go strut around Vegas naked)?



does it not bother anyone that Pym's most identifiable characteristic is his woe-as-me attitude?

So, Steve and Tony can do horrible things to each other and turn the entire superhero community against itself in the midst of what amounts to a personal war or two between them and still get deference from almost everyone, while Pym --- who had lots of psychological issues that everyone around him should've seen and dealt with sooner as opposed to ignoring so long as he kept showing up for team meetings and missions --- deserves to be universally loathed and looked down on forever? Wow.

Also, self-pitying contemplation/introspection has been a major aspect of many a Marvel hero for years if not decades now, so I don't see why Pym deserves special scorn for that. Speaking of special scorn, I do mind that people keep focusing on this and Ultron as if those are the only things he should ever be known for, especially given how the last decade or so of stories have established that nearly none of the Avengers have the moral authority that they think they do. Glass houses, after all.

[davew128]

Also, self-pitying contemplation/introspection has been a major aspect of many a Marvel hero for years if not decades now, so I don't see why Pym deserves special scorn for that. Speaking of special scorn, I do mind that people keep focusing on this and Ultron as if those are the only things he should ever be known for, especially given how the last decade or so of stories have established that nearly none of the Avengers have the moral authority that they think they do. Glass houses, after all.

I had to give this some thought. I could forgive slapping Janet under the circumstances, if only because it was an isolated incident and not done out of malice. Quite honestly at the time I looked at it as an accident more than anything else. Ultron though...a constantly evolving homicidal artificial intelligence that has committed mass murder on both planetary AND interplanetary levels...based on who's brain patterns again? Yes, Hank's. I could even forgive it but never forget it. We know Ultron survives well into the future and in several AUs has destroyed or subjugated both Earth and Asgard. That threat is basically never going away, much like Apocalypse.

As for Avengers who COULD cast a stern eye and not feel shame....

Tigra?
Clint? (If you consider assisted suicide acceptable with Banner)
Thor? (The Reigning was an alternate future)
Spectrum.
Quasar (Wendell)
Janet
Simon
Cage
The USAvengers
The former ANAD Avengers now part of the Champions
Falcon

Everyone else I could think of who has a member for more than the briefest of times would have something significant in their past.

[Huntsman Spider]

I had to give this some thought. I could forgive slapping Janet under the circumstances, if only because it was an isolated incident and not done out of malice. Quite honestly at the time I looked at it as an accident more than anything else. Ultron though...a constantly evolving homicidal artificial intelligence that has committed mass murder on both planetary AND interplanetary levels...based on who's brain patterns again? Yes, Hank's. I could even forgive it but never forget it. We know Ultron survives well into the future and in several AUs has destroyed or subjugated both Earth and Asgard. That threat is basically never going away, much like Apocalypse.

As for Avengers who COULD cast a stern eye and not feel shame....

Tigra?
Clint? (If you consider assisted suicide acceptable with Banner)
Thor? (The Reigning was an alternate future)
Spectrum.
Quasar (Wendell)
Janet
Simon
Cage
The USAvengers
The former ANAD Avengers now part of the Champions
Falcon

Everyone else I could think of who has a member for more than the briefest of times would have something significant in their past.

Good points, I must admit. I was just irritated that Pym got the majority of Avengers fandom scorn for Ultron and Janet when a lot of the more/other "major" members of the team had stuff in their past that should have (rightfully) earned them the permanent disdain and contempt of their contemporaries in the superhero community, yet got swept under the rug by the characters themselves or by writers/editorial. (Thor joined HYDRA-Cap's Avengers in Secret Empire, by the way.) I can also see Michael Watkins's point that Pym got more than enough chances to make good and ended up screwing himself over because he couldn't or wouldn't deal with his own issues before they made him into a liability for the team. Again, I'm irritated that he gets treated like he's the absolute worst ever, by both fans and writers, when a lot of fan-favorite characters on the Avengers or in other superhero teams/franchises have done at least as bad, if not worse, and yet don't get nearly as much scorn and contempt, whether from the in-universe characters or the real-world fandom/readership and creators.

[Michael Watkins]

So, Steve and Tony can do horrible things to each other and turn the entire superhero community against itself in the midst of what amounts to a personal war or two between them and still get deference from almost everyone, while Pym.

you're not getting it. look at the context of characters "forgiving" stark or rogers. it's not about forgive. they are accomplished leaders. it's not like anyone's hanging out with Tony or Steve. they interact with the hero community mainly as catalysts of action. and people would defer to Pym all of the time (see: Mighty Avengers and West Coast Avengers). so he's had the same breaks that Steve and Stark did. but the latter two didn't do anything as repugnant as giving the 'little sister' of the avengers a black eye. if Stark had beaten up Pepper in a drunken rage, everyone would hate him. I promise you this. there are just certain crimes that permanently stain a character. and before you reply, murder isn't one of them (even though they warped reality just to excuse the killing of Rita Demara). personally, I could not care less that Pym created Ultron. it's of note because he hasn't done much else.

[davew128]

if Stark had beaten up Pepper in a drunken rage, everyone would hate him. I promise you this. there are just certain crimes that permanently stain a character. and before you reply, murder isn't one of them (even though they warped reality just to excuse the killing of Rita Demara). personally, I could not care less that Pym created Ultron. it's of note because he hasn't done much else.

Oh there are a lot of reasons to hate Stark going back to the early 80's.
- Dating Jan right after her breakup with Hank and not telling her he was Iron Man all along.
- His "Me against the world" mindset in Armor Wars, hurting innocent people and causing the death of Titanium Man.
- The murders he committed in The Crossing of both Yellowjacket and Marilla.
- Ignoring military security protocols by consolidating network hubs leading to the Skrull Secret Invasion
- An unhealthy obsession with redheaded women (Pepper, Natasha, Bethany, Mary Jane, and probably Jean Grey)

[Michael Watkins]

Oh there are a lot of reasons to hate Stark going back to the early 80's.
- Dating Jan right after her breakup with Hank and not telling her he was Iron Man all along.

in the context of a comic about superheroes, it's not a big deal. Peter Parker hid his alter ego from Mary Jane and Aunt May for several years. superheroes have secrets. Jan was attracted to him. Tony was attracted to her. he didn't trick her into the date.

His "Me against the world" mindset in Armor Wars, hurting innocent people and causing the death of Titanium Man.

Titanium Man is quite alive. his Russian masters threw him in the gulag. and Tony had a reason to collect his armors. they were being misused. as for me against the world, Pym apparently thought that he was too good to get his mental illness treated. he created himself a game room instead.

- The murders he committed in The Crossing of both Yellowjacket and Marilla.

they are irrelevant because Teen Tony didn't commit them. he was aged to full adulthood to replace the other guy. and Pym is apparently quite okay with genocide. his skrull (amnesic at the time but having Pym's brain patterns), created a virus to wipe out mutantkind. ultron, possessed of hank's brain patterns, murdered the slorenians. and, shortly before becoming merged with Ultron, Pym tried to murder all of the Descendants (sentient beings).

- Ignoring military security protocols by consolidating network hubs leading to the Skrull Secret Invasion

is that the best you got? tony's organizational skills were essential to the defeat of the skrulls. religious extremism led to the skrull invasion. it was secret because the skrulls are shape-shifters. they had infiltrated the government and military. but back to Pym. he ignored basic ethics and slept with some school girl who turned out to be a skrull; kicking all of this off.

- An unhealthy obsession with redheaded women (Pepper, Natasha, Bethany, Mary Jane, and probably Jean Grey)

Pym has life like robots made to look like the Avengers who are programmed to compliment him.

[Ana]

Oh there are a lot of reasons to hate Stark going back to the early 80's.
- Dating Jan right after her breakup with Hank and not telling her he was Iron Man all along.
- His "Me against the world" mindset in Armor Wars, hurting innocent people and causing the death of Titanium Man.
- The murders he committed in The Crossing of both Yellowjacket and Marilla.
- Ignoring military security protocols by consolidating network hubs leading to the Skrull Secret Invasion
- An unhealthy obsession with redheaded women (Pepper, Natasha, Bethany, Mary Jane, and probably Jean Grey)

I was under the impression when I read the issue that both Jan and Tony were attracted to each other and were trying to forget people they loved. Jan had a choice there and was free to persue another relationship after Hank.
And I don't see how that was an obsession. From what I read so far, Tony seems to have Pepper and Natasha in high regard and treats them as beloved friends. He seems to respect Bethany and be ok about not date her anymore. And he was always professional towards Mary Jane in his very few interactions with her that time she worked for Stark Industries. And seems to respect Jean Grey a lot as well.

I'm sorry and I'm not triyng to create a debate, but when you put like this seems that this female characters are being portrayed in this storylines as merely objects or as victimis from a creppy. And in fact all of them had an active voice and choose to his friends/girlfriend/empolyee/comrade.
I never read the Civil War and The Crossing stuff, but from the comments I understand why people are still upset with the characterization, but I think the other plots were perfectly fine, don't understand the hate.