Ororo Munroe: Storm Appreciation 2019

[Devaishwarya]

Because
1: The X-men for the past decade has been garbage.
2: The Family-interest dynamic was created for, played up, and followed in, BP under Hudlin. Circa their marriage...with very little connectivity with the X-Books at the time (because she wasn't a big player/influence/presence in the X-books)
3: The X-Men and BP under many different writers have had entirely different story/character trajectories.

All that is to say...the character "discrepancies" are understandable. It's only fan-expectation that make them seemingly intolerable.

[stormphoenix]

I love you kyss, but you really can’t distill 50 years of X-men canon, fighting at each other’s backs as a team and a family, literally dying for each other, to those 3 questions. Xavier didn’t know what she truly was at the time, the X-men believed her not to be a real goddess because Ororo herself came to see herself and not a real Goddess, and you disdain Wolverine and Ororo’s relationship so I won’t bother with the other one. You’ve read Claremont’s near 20 years on the X-men, you know their relationships go way deeper than those criticisms. Xavier was the father and mentor she’d only come close to having with Achmed, her doubts about his intentions being very early on in her tenure there. As far as taking a back seat to Cyclops and Wolverine, she lead the X-men for years and during some of their most influential storylines. Some of her best and most important archs as a character happened during that time, when Cyclops was being written as a dead-beat dad and husband and had Ororo embarrass him when he got too cocky and assumed his entitlement to leadership. In more recent years the tables have turned. Wolverine, like it or not(I certainly don’t) has always been the X-men’s most popular character, so if were being fair, everyone has taken a back seat to him at one point or another. That’s just the nature of comics and unskilled writers at times. But pivoting to the X-men and their issues doesn’t make anything being said about T’challa and BP any less valid. When the X-men/X-writers didn’t do right by her we all hated it and it was never just “accepted”. We’re gonna call out qualms with BP exactly the same.

Yeah, this is 100% correct.

We can't just dismiss everything the X-Men have done for Storm and just focus on what Wakanda(WHOM NOW they wanna worship as a Goddess) has done for Storm. When we know at one point in time they didn't even like her..some of them. But yeah, I agree with it.

[jwatson]

In modern comics he's already given billions to the X-Men mission. Also in modern comics he offered aid to JEAN GREY of all people because she asked. In comics of yesteryear he was the vehicle for which her ties to her American bloodline was established. The X-Men never touched it's the real way that Coates can really effect change is to make it canon that her mutant abilities come from her paternal lineage. In more modern comics T'Challa was the vehicle for Storm to acknowledge her intersectionality in regards to another black woman. When have the X-books ever? Your point about his relationship with mutants in general seems way off. Not including Storm, he's had Eden by his side for how long now? Not to mention his relationship with Nehzno or one if the confirmed mutants in Wakanda, Shuri's friend Muti. It seems to me, and this is just my opinion, T'Challa has to prove that he's down for mutant issues, but the mutants don't acknowledge their lack of black mutants.

I think Namor's the perfect hat to throw in the ring. Its brilliant. He's allowed to call Xavier on his bullshit because he clearly doesn't trust him. But Storm and T'Challa should blindly follow him? So far, she's only been used as a glorified mouthpiece. Who else at the council of 12 has been realistically pushing for the mutants of Africa? Name 5? Why does T'Challa have to prove that he's pro-black mutant when he's flush with them, but the X-books don't?

Im not getting that deep in the effects of black love etc and what that perspective offers because while i don't think anything is wrong with it and love it when it works, it shouldn't been an expectation just because a character is a black man or woman. We definitely need more examples of it, but i wouldn't hold this format to being beholden to it in the same ways i would others.

As for Tchalla again all that was connected to Storm. Cassandra was a threat to him in X-men red because he sent Storm to Wakanda, as such in a way he needed to help because his people were in danger. Also Jean is Storm's best friend, i am sure tchalla knows this. In the grand scheme of things he has done things for individual mutants and in his case i stand by sending billions of dollars is the least he can do. How much would it cost for a defense as such storm offered.

He was no where during the mists story and no where during decimation but he was front and center when it came to taking them down when it came to A vs. X. I stand by if coates wants this to work long term he needs to get in front of this optic. And again, Storm has still done more for him AND his people than he has done for he and hers in universe. That is a fact which i don't really need or care to debate to be honest cause i'm talking on paper not let me stretch my mind to reach the point of mutual support.

And i'm not sure what any of this has to do with X-men pushing non-black mutants which is a question in diversity of the overall comic market itself rather than X-men and it has nothing to do with the premise of the Tchalla/Ororo relationship other to add weight to blacks should be with blacks which i don't agree with so it's pointless to discuss for me as it's not going to change your opinion or mine.

[stormphoenix]

All that is to say...the character "discrepancies" are understandable. It's only fan-expectation that make them seemingly intolerable.

MM Fair Point...

[jwatson]

1. I dont think I understand the premise of this question. Should Ororo not help mutantkind ur humankind for that matter because they are not in a position to help her in the way that she can help them? To Tchalla, let's not forget it was his mind and technology that allowed Jean to safely remove the sentinite that was embedded in her brain. It Tchalla who believed in her to achieve a power that was told to her by Xavier she was leaving in a fantasy. It was his love for Ororo that kept him fighting to return to her when his loss all his memories and was in the far edges of the galaxy enslaved by the very descendants of the followers from his kingdom. Love is not a thing of quid quo pro or it shouldnt be imho.




1. What's wrong with calling for her help? You said Ororo was their only gun and I countered that argument. And it wasn't me who made the point about a gun, that was definitely you. See your post 5775.

2. Again, you cant say with 100% certainty they were going to die if Storm had not shown up.

3. Tchalla didnt go into the future. He went thru a time warp that sent him to the past. In the last issue of Shuri it was her and not Ororo who defeated the Lubber. The point of bringing up Agents of Wakanda is to counter your arguement Ororo is Wakanda's ONLY gun. That is what you said on post 5775. If she was Wakanda's only gun why isnt she being utilized there? And there is a large threat in Agents of Wakanda (read issue 1) and Ororo is no where to be found. I dont have an issue with what Okoye said nor did I ever have issue with it. I was simply countering your incorrect statement that Ororo was Wakanda's ONLY GUN. Those are your words not mine. so again....

I'm not answering that question because nothing in my question said Ororo shouldn't help mutant or human kind so thats a stretch in of itself to lead into i'm assuming the explanation of why Tchalla isn't doing more for mutants overall or the mutant cause when the supposed love of his life is a mutant and navigating a world where her and her family can be killed at any second but was the first in line when the time came to put them in check. OMG tchalla loved ororo and because of that love the MAN validated everything we already knew about this strong woman. Um. Kind of didn't need Tchalla to do that but i will give credit that the words came out of his mouth. But even in the story Tchalla didn't give Storm any worshippers, he didn't give her any new status, it is others in the story that are referring to her as the Hadari Yao and others that are bowing at the power she possesses so i think it's a disservice to Storm to try to give Tchalla credit for something we have seen her accomplish for years in the X-books but was just presented by Coates because Tchalla isn't the one passiing on all the information only bits of it in a different and more clear way. But thats okay if love is everything for you, glad your a person of hope and love.

And to your own questions.

Why hasn't tchalla ever showed up to help mutants in their time of need, their greatest times of need? Does Storm have to beg for it? Where was the panel of him at least running analysis on the T-mist cloud knowing the woman he claimed to love was flying around and possible had to leave the Earth.

But yeah lets give him all the credit for the easy stuff and just ignore when the writers don't have the characters do the real work. The work where in 5 months of someone confronts storm about Wakanda the panels can easily back up whatever excuses she has to come up with for her man beyond "well love"

[butterflykyss]

Nothing I disagree in this post at all, youÂ’re speaking all of the truth here kyss. I think we just happen to be seeing and appreciating different sides of the truth in regards to BP at the moment. Everything about OroroÂ’s appearances in both of those books was wonderful and it was such a great Wednesday because of it. ItÂ’s just that I think Coates really has me on guard since small moments with the Nakia recently have led me to doubt he is 100% committed to TÂ’choro.

1. I totally agree here with you as well. I definitely think you make a great point about him being distant and cold. I think some of that is partial to his feelings he may be trying to sort out for Nakia, but Tchalla has been broken it seems for a quite a long time. He might be cold or distant not even as a result of his feelings for Nakia/Ororo but it could primarily due to blaming himself for what happened in the Zanj region. He sent those Wakandans out to space which resulted in the atrocities that he personally experienced. He may have a lot of regret for that and his displays towards of Ororo could be that he wouldnt feel right celebrating when there are still so many people suffering. I think I like that idea better than the Nakia/Ororo/Tchalla love triangle idea lol. To your point about the story dragging I will agree I was experiencing the fatigue myself but now that they are back on Earth Prime and it seems things there will be shaken up a bit I've been reinvigorated. Also, going back and reading the earlier stories have made this more enjoyable but at any rate I do agree it seem to drag a lot but that just Coates and what I usually would be annoyed with I ignore because I know the reward in the end will be good. He hasnt let me down yet so I'm good in that regard lol.

2. I think what Hickman is doing for the xmen has really changed the game. It's hard not to compare a really well done piece of work to other stories being written. That said, we have to consider Hickman's story is spanning technically for just 6 issues for each book and after that who knows if we may have that similar sentiment of the stories dragging let's say 10 or so months down the line. It may just all boil down to personal preference. I like how Coates spreads his stories out which is why some say the trades read better but it's all a matter of opinion. The only thing I hope for when the Symbiote story does end is that Tchalla gets his mojo back and his love for Ororo flourishes in a way it was always meant to.

All excellent points. I'd also ask do the X-men even know that her grandparents' home was attacked by Hydra? Do they care? Does Storm? Are they of no consequence because they're not mutants? What type of woman does that make Storm for not reaching out while on assignment with the X-Men? Why does T'Challa apparently care more about her actual family than she does? How can she claim to love anyone else's family when she clearly doesn't love her own?

Omg you are again making some great points. The idea that she has not made a greater effort to find her flesh and blood family would present a contradiction of sorts seeing that she fights so hard for the mutant cause.

I love you kyss, but you really can’t distill 50 years of X-men canon, fighting at each other’s backs as a team and a family, literally dying for each other, to those 3 questions. Xavier didn’t know what she truly was at the time, the X-men believed her not to be a real goddess because Ororo herself came to see herself and not a real Goddess, and you disdain Wolverine and Ororo’s relationship so I won’t bother with the other one. You’ve read Claremont’s near 20 years on the X-men, you know their relationships go way deeper than those criticisms. Xavier was the father and mentor she’d only come close to having with Achmed, her doubts about his intentions being very early on in her tenure there. As far as taking a back seat to Cyclops and Wolverine, she lead the X-men for years and during some of their most influential storylines. Some of her best and most important archs as a character happened during that time, when Cyclops was being written as a dead-beat dad and husband and had Ororo embarrass him when he got too cocky and assumed his entitlement to leadership. In more recent years the tables have turned. Wolverine, like it or not(I certainly don’t) has always been the X-men’s most popular character, so if were being fair, everyone has taken a back seat to him at one point or another. That’s just the nature of comics and unskilled writers at times. But pivoting to the X-men and their issues doesn’t make anything being said about T’challa and BP any less valid. When the X-men/X-writers didn’t do right by her we all hated it and it was never just “accepted”. We’re gonna call out qualms with BP exactly the same.

1. Of course I love you too Ororo and if we ever disagree on a subject please know I will always and still love you. I want to say what I love about my storm fam is that we can disagree and still have each others backs. **virtual hugs and kysess**

That said, let's recall how Xavier approached Ororo orginally. He told her she was living a fantasy disregarding the fact she very much believed herself as being a goddess:







I have to acknowledge I know a lot of this is being done via the prism of hindsight but his approach in this all was very privileged to assume that she was not correct in believing her abilities were due to her being a goddess. What made his cause and need to allow for mutants and humans to coexist greater than her desire to help the people of her village? Moreover, Ororo herself questioned Xavier and her desire to leave her village to join him many years later when he asked her to steal for him:



The idea that she was questioned her place as a goddess is something she experienced in canon as expressed in Uncanny 305.

To your point about Claremont I 100% agree with you. Her time as leader during that period is one of the reasons many storm fans still love her. However, it can't be ignored that despite his efforts the xmen in how they were presented once the marriage was annulled was via the prism of the white Male leaders (either through cyclops and then via logan). After Logan died, Ororo took the reigns but that was shortly followed by IvX where she was written to be ineffectual from stopping a cloud followed by her unceremonious demotion in gold. Many of the newer readers, as unfortunate as it sounds, have not even read the older Claremont storie so much of peoples view of her does stem from the 90s unward.

[Marvell2100]

Hey y’all. So I’ve been hesitant to say anything about this week’s showings because I’ve been conflicted over it. Storm had a fantastic showing in BP this week. One of my favorites of her in his whole series until this point and truly one of her best showings in general in a very long time. However I’d be remiss to say that I’m also just not enjoying the actual storyline in BP as much as I’d hoped I would. Hickman has ruined them for me in a way because when you see a book that ups the anti and anticipation of a story with every issue, it’s hard to look at Coates’ story to me and see the same thing or even close. It is really dragging on in my opinion and I just read a solicit for BP #19 in 3 months are they are STILL on the Emperor N’Jadaka storyline. Even compared to Claremont’s older, long term storytelling issues this seems to drag along in comparison. I didn’t even love Ororo and T’s interaction in this issue either. Between T’challa’s “I assume you’ll be alright without me” , like sir this is Storm not some needy housewife you have to make sure is ok when you’re gone. Then when he got in his ship and put the glass up before she could even properly kiss him? He seems cold. And distant. Still. Trust me, it saddens me to say this because I really do want them to work. Since T got back though it feels to me that he almost couldn’t be bothered to show proper attention and affection to Ororo. Where is the love, really? Granted it’s just been the past couple issues with them but it’s so underwhelming after I was looking forward to him getting back to Wakanda Prime to be with her for what felt like forever. I want to see how this plays out but I had to be honest and say I’m just bored with the story I’m general, even if Ororo has a great showing this week. I really do hope things happen that make me excited again for BP and them together in general. However I know a lot of y’all do like the story and that’s totally fine, and I’m happy for you. Just wish I could join you is all.

Her appearance in Fearless was great/cute as well! Not the best story but it was cute and definitely a series of pick up for some of my younger cousins to read. The toad’s getting stuck by lightning definitely triggered me from that awful line in X1 though and some part of me wonders is it’s intentional lol.

As usual HoxPox won the week for me. I’ve rarely been so exited as a X-fan to see where they’re going next. The anticipation/anxiety I get over the new release every week is something I haven’t felt since I was a kid. And with Storm being the cover queen for next week’s issue and confirmed on the ruling council I am going to be dying a slow death until next Wednesday. I hope the DoX books can continue this massive momentum Hickman has built up! Other comic book writers must hate him for putting them all to shame like this lmao

Hey!!! I'm a person of my word.

Let me give you some background on my thoughts about Storm and BP. I was a very strong supporter of the marriage. I though this was sucha great idea and I felt for sure that they would be the new power couple in the MU.

Four corners:
Reed/Sue
Black Bolt/Medusa
Scott/Emma
Storm/T'Challa

Imagine a Marvel U with that scenario. The political intrigue, the tension, the fun. I thought this would be on ongoing thing for years. Didn't turn out that way. Too much bad isht happened(AvX). Some of us kept fighting and fighting for them to be together and more bad isht kept happening. Marvel screwed it up big time, so some of us just let it go.

So now, Storm and T'Challa are back together again. In his book. Little to no acknowledgement of this in any of the other X-books and whenever they did go there, they frakked up. Sp you can see why some of us are tired of the drama. If they're gonna do it then just frakking do it. Make them a full couple, no innuendo, no teasing just come out and tell the rest of the MU and fans they are together.

I'll be the first to admit I took sides(T'Challa) and put a lot of heavy isht on Storm. I was totally wrong. Storm didn't write herself and neither did T'Challa. The blame lies at the feet of the writers who don't know how to write a strong couple/relationship and at Marvel for letting this crap happen. I had to let that isht go and start liking Storm all over again.

Now, I stopped reading the X-Men a long time ago because of a lack of minority representation and the tendency to kill, depower, limit, maim or limbo the minority characters they did have. And then the notion of a world where all humans were hating mutants while cheering for the FF and other non-mutant heroes stopped making sense for me. So I let it go.

Right now, Storm is marginalized. She should either lead the X-Men(or an X-team) or take a different path for her and other mutants. If they really don't have plans for her, just let her go. I would love for her to be in BP permanently, be an Avenger, do something different, other than languishing while they keep digging up more kids for the Summers ad Wolverine.

I've read X-books from the 80s to the early 2000s on a regular basis. I know what Storm is capable of and what kind of character she is. I just wish Marvel would get their isht together and do something with great with her. either in the X-books or somewhere else.

What do you think?

[jwatson]

I can give Tchalla credit for helping Storm, I can give tchalla credit for helping NEhnzo but is it because he is a mutant or is it because he is part Wakandian. I would say it's wakandian because the king didn't seem to care much when NEhnzo was being treated like crap in Wakanda until Storm took an interest in Nehnzo. Do we even know what Tchalla's actual thoughts are on mutants? Because i really don't know. I know what they are on Storm and those she likes for the most part but not mutants as a whole but based on A vs. X i don't think it's too good. IF your going to have a mutant in your book as the love interest of your title character than you need to address the issues her community is facing just how she is addressing the issues your community are facing otherwise it doesn't look good. The x-line doesn't seem to want Tchalla/Ororo together, at least it's not presented as they are together except right before the marriage where all of a sudden he was on a mission with them (Which happened to still be about what was happening around wakanda) and in X-men red. But i read the comics, not the behind the scenes stuff. We already know Storm's helps humans and Tchalla and his people in general because it has been shown in his books and before their marriage and in X-men red as well. We do not and can not say the same for Tchalla. So yes Coates is doing some nice things for Storm but he's not playing the long game for the fact that she is an X-man first and that will come back to bite BP just like it did the inhumans where not one fan could produce a panel of actual help. So i still stand by coates needs to get in front of this. One panel sayinh his choice for not supporting karoka and why. ONe panel stating he worked to try to find a way to solve the t-mist. SOMETHING! You don't see BP in the X-men books and it's not their job to show his view of mutantdom there but if his book wants to use her it is their job, especially when it comes to the conditions mutants live in and him being her love interest. otherwise it comes off like a one sided love where he says nice things but is there anything else he is bringing to the table? Some would say he's just giving that good D and little else. I would expect the same in the x-books if Tchalla was showing up but he's not.

[Marvell2100]

Exactly and i can give Tchalla credit for helping Storm, I can give tchalla credit for helping NEhnzo but is it because he is a mutant or is it because he is part Wakandian. I would say it's wakandian because the king didn't seem to care much when NEhnzo was being treated like crap in Wakanda until Storm took an interest in Nehnzo. Do we even know what Tchalla's actual thoughts are on mutants? Because i really don't know. I know what they are on Storm and those she likes for the most part but not mutants as a whole but based on A vs. X i don't think it's too good. IF your going to have a mutant in your book as the love interest of your title character than you need to address the issues her community is facing just how she is addressing the issues your community are facing otherwise it doesn't look good. The x-line doesn't seem to want Tchalla/Ororo together, at least it's not presented as they are together except right before the marriage where all of a sudden he was on a mission with them (Which happened to still be about what was happening around wakanda) and in X-men red. But i read the comics, not the behind the scenes stuff. We already know Storm's helps humans and Tchalla and his people in general because it has been shown in his books and before their marriage and in X-men red as well. We do not and can not say the same for Tchalla. So yes Coates is doing some nice things for Storm but he's not playing the long game for the fact that she is an X-man first and that will come back to bite BP just like it did the inhumans where not one fan could produce a panel of actual help. So i still stand by coates needs to get in front of this. One panel sayinh his choice for not supporting karoka and why. ONe panel stating he worked to try to find a way to solve the t-mist. SOMETHING! You don't see BP in the X-men books and it's not their job to show his view of mutantdom there but if his book wants to use her it is their job, especially when it comes to the conditions mutants live in and him being her love interest. otherwise it comes off like a one sided love where he says nice things but is there anything else he is bringing to the table? Some would say he's just giving that good D and little else. I would expect the same in the x-books if Tchalla was showing up but he's not.

T'Challa started Mutant Sans Frontieres.

[jwatson]

T'Challa started Mutant Sans Frontieres.

It was Beast idea which again i gave him credit for giving money. But again, for someone of his status giving money is the least he can do. And i believe they were married at the time so communal property.

[jwatson]

T'Challa started Mutant Sans Frontieres.

Also i would ask what does that do to dissuade violence against mutants. Giving money in secret doesn't do much for that. If you attack wakanda the world knows you got to step up to Storm, and now a part of the galaxy does. If you hurt mutants who've done no wrong Tchalla will.... Give more money. It's optics. The King of Wakanda has never made a public statement as far as I know on mutant affairs.

[Marvell2100]

It was Beast idea which again i gave him credit for giving money. But again, for someone of his status giving money is the least he can do. And i believe they were married at the time so communal property.

He still did it when he didn't have to.

[jwatson]

He still did it when he didn't have to.

Exactly my point. Just like Storm protects Wakanda when she doesn't need to putting herself in danger and letting her community know you don't mess with Wakanda. Hiding in the shadows and helping her is nice but it doesn't say what the King of one of the biggest nations in the MU thinks of mutants to anyone but Storm. Which is also another point of mine. It comes off he doesn't care about anything in the mutant community outside of her. Which is nice i guess but not enough to get in front of the naysaying, something is going to have to give.

[Marvell2100]

Also i would ask what does that do to dissuade violence against mutants. Giving money in secret doesn't do much for that. If you attack wakanda the world knows you got to step up to Storm, and now a part of the galaxy does. If you hurt mutants who've done no wrong Tchalla will.... Give more money. It's optics. The King of Wakanda has never made a public statement as far as I know on mutant affairs.

I'll leave the last word to you since this will no doubt be an argument going in circles. No need to derail the thread.

[jwatson]

I'll leave the last word to you since this will no doubt be an argument going in circles. No need to derail the thread.

It's not an argument in that we actually agree. I can see those things but what i'm trying to get across is it's important given the status change of mutants now being owned by marvel to atleast drop a panel here or there to address the issue so there is some actual backup when the potential collide occurs. Something that people can hold onto and say "Wait, hold up in issue 15 he mentioned trying to find a way to cure the cloud." That's literally all i'm saying and it is true. Look how the inhumans ended up because they didn't do the same.