Ororo Munroe: Storm Appreciation 2019

[Ororo101]

Fair point. But there are couples who have children born with all kinds of medical issues, from autism to rare cancers and diseases and they still love these children. There are couples who adopt these children even with these issues.

And there are parents who love their children no matter their identity

This is my problem with the "every human hates mutants" diatribe currently in the X-Men and their problems with showing a fair balance.

And now we have a mutant nation selling drugs to other countries to be popular. I did not see that one coming.

Yes that’s all true too. I didn’t realize people were of the impression that EVERY single human was anti-mutant. I certainly don’t see that. I just figured that anti-mutant sentiment mirrored religio-political sentiments in the real world. Just because there are still numerous countries in the world where homosexuality is illegal/ a punishable offense, doesn’t mean that I think everyone in those countries feels the same way. Just like in the real world where a nations major religion heavily dictates its laws as a nation, even in the US, I believe that religious/traditionalist groups in Marvel who see mutation as a deviation from what is of God and/or natural hold lots of power and sway over public sentiment. Remember there was once a point where people would use the Bible to justify slavery and racism. The mark of Cain was seen to be a sign that blackness was inferior. People can use their beliefs to excuse all kinds of ridiculous, bigoted ideas. So I could see problem in the MU seeing a birth disability as a challenge to an innocent “normal” baby and mutation as a curse or deviation from God or nature. The same reason why no one throws sick and disabled kids out into the street but they will with their lesbian daughter.

[Marvell2100]

Yes that’s all true too. I didn’t realize people were of the impression that EVERY single human was anti-mutant. I certainly don’t see that. I just figured that anti-mutant sentiment mirrored religio-political sentiments in the real world. Just because there are still numerous countries in the world where homosexuality is illegal/ a punishable offense, doesn’t mean that I think everyone in those countries feels the same way. Just like in the real world where a nations major religion heavily dictates its laws as a nation, even in the US, I believe that religious/traditionalist groups in Marvel who see mutation as a deviation from what is of God and/or natural hold lots of power and sway over public sentiment. Remember there was once a point where people would use the Bible to justify slavery and racism. The mark of Cain was seen to be a sign that blackness was inferior. People can use their beliefs to excuse all kinds of ridiculous, bigoted ideas. So I could see problem in the MU seeing a birth disability as a challenge to an innocent “normal” baby and mutation as a curse or deviation from God or nature. The same reason why no one throws sick and disabled kids out into the street but they will with their lesbian daughter.

No doubt, there are real life people like that, I can't argue against your point there.

But I would like to see more humans who are not anti-mutant, who are inclusive in the X-books. Being a person who is inclusive, I feel sorely under-represented in the X-books on top of being a black male.

[jwatson]

Precisely, this is about writers, the stories they want to tell, and the perspective they chose to take. Every character is an extension of the person writing them. If X-writers, for whatever reason, choose not to integrate Ororo's romantic relationship into their stories, that is not a reflection on the T'Challa character. It's insensible to make that kind of leap in logic. If Coates decides to include Ororo in his BP mythos, as he's done the last two or so years, that is his decision as the writer whose been allowed to reunite the characters. Coates is obviously the writer who has been charged with leading/grounding/developing the relationship. Where else would he do that but between the pages of BP? If there was a Storm comic, that writer would have that forum to explore their relationship too, as well as other parts of the character.

At best, X-writers should acknowledge their relationship because it is a current part of canon. What they shouldn't do is use their books to create situations between the two that Coates must deal with in BP. The same is true for Coates. See, unless the X-writers and Coates are truly collaborating, which I do not believe they are, they cannot easily delve into each other's storylines without the risk of creating issues another writer will either have to address or choose to ignore, thus muddying the waters.

See, without true collaboration, less is actually more. So no, T'Challa (Coates) may not say much about Krakoa in his comic because to do so could create story issues for Hickman. Does that mean T'Challa doesn't give a shit about mutants, Ororo's feelings, or is unsupportive of her interests? Of course not. What it means is that writers have to respect other writers' ability to tell the story they want to tell without being hampered by or derailed by other writers.

X-writers did that during their marriage, contradicting what Hudlin wrote in BP. That shouldn't happen, yet it was allowed to. I think everyone is being much more cautious and cognizant of such dynamics now. Ideally, it would be great if there was a greater connection with Ororo's appearance in all of the books she's in. The reality however, is that it is probably a lot harder to make that work with different authors than we as readers think. Her depiction, however, in one comic does not negate or minimize her portrayal in another simply because it isn't openly recognized across the board the way some people believe it should be.

Anyway, that's my two cents. This isn't a character issue but a writers and collaboration issue.

And i don't disagree with you but on a base level what does it look like? All i'm saying is if you want a character to come across good when scrunity from the fans hit, reference it. If this is to be the marvel couple and BP and is where that is chosen to be shown than it is on that writer to try to grab as many readers as they can. And he is in the middle of a story that was already prewritten so i'm not exactly expecting it to be there right now. But what i am saying is for this to work in the best way we need to see things we haven't before and i would expect the same if the X-books chose to use Tchalla. "Ororo andI choose not to talk of Karako at the moment." to Shuri who mentioned it. Boom it makes sense. I guess i'm just trying to see the big picture now that those barriers company barriers aren't there. I'm not trying to down Tchalla and BP i'm mentioning what doesn't exist and can.

[butterflykyss]

I'm not answering that question because nothing in my question said Ororo shouldn't help mutant or human kind so thats a stretch in of itself to lead into i'm assuming the explanation of why Tchalla isn't doing more for mutants overall or the mutant cause when the supposed love of his life is a mutant and navigating a world where her and her family can be killed at any second but was the first in line when the time came to put them in check. OMG tchalla loved ororo and because of that love the MAN validated everything we already knew about this strong woman. Um. Kind of didn't need Tchalla to do that but i will give credit that the words came out of his mouth. But even in the story Tchalla didn't give Storm any worshippers, he didn't give her any new status, it is others in the story that are referring to her as the Hadari Yao and others that are bowing at the power she possesses so i think it's a disservice to Storm to try to give Tchalla credit for something we have seen her accomplish for years in the X-books but was just presented by Coates because Tchalla isn't the one passiing on all the information only bits of it in a different and more clear way. But thats okay if love is everything for you, glad your a person of hope and love.

And to your own questions.

Why hasn't tchalla ever showed up to help mutants in their time of need, their greatest times of need? Does Storm have to beg for it? Where was the panel of him at least running analysis on the T-mist cloud knowing the woman he claimed to love was flying around and possible had to leave the Earth.

But yeah lets give him all the credit for the easy stuff and just ignore when the writers don't have the characters do the real work. The work where in 5 months of someone confronts storm about Wakanda the panels can easily back up whatever excuses she has to come up with for her man beyond "well love"

What more should be doing though? I dont understand the complaint. Tchalla supporter Jean in when she was looking to start a mutant nation. Are you wanting him to accept Krakoa as a nation even though it harbors mutants who are villains and will potentially have villains on its council?

To Ororo, what status is greater than being a God to an entire nation? This directly occurred because Tchalla encouraged her to believe something she had been told many times she wasnt.

Tchallas biggest duty is to the people of Wakanda. If those people happen to be mutant and or human he helps them. And again he has helped mutants. See xmen red for the most recent example of this. And as others have said these characters dont write themselves. Coates being respectful of using ororo while the xoffices diesnt follow suit is the result of the xoffices seeing they allowed Coates to use the character.

Hey!!! I'm a person of my word.

Let me give you some background on my thoughts about Storm and BP. I was a very strong supporter of the marriage. I though this was sucha great idea and I felt for sure that they would be the new power couple in the MU.

Four corners:
Reed/Sue
Black Bolt/Medusa
Scott/Emma
Storm/T'Challa

Imagine a Marvel U with that scenario. The political intrigue, the tension, the fun. I thought this would be on ongoing thing for years. Didn't turn out that way. Too much bad isht happened(AvX). Some of us kept fighting and fighting for them to be together and more bad isht kept happening. Marvel screwed it up big time, so some of us just let it go.

So now, Storm and T'Challa are back together again. In his book. Little to no acknowledgement of this in any of the other X-books and whenever they did go there, they frakked up. Sp you can see why some of us are tired of the drama. If they're gonna do it then just frakking do it. Make them a full couple, no innuendo, no teasing just come out and tell the rest of the MU and fans they are together.

I'll be the first to admit I took sides(T'Challa) and put a lot of heavy isht on Storm. I was totally wrong. Storm didn't write herself and neither did T'Challa. The blame lies at the feet of the writers who don't know how to write a strong couple/relationship and at Marvel for letting this crap happen. I had to let that isht go and start liking Storm all over again.

Now, I stopped reading the X-Men a long time ago because of a lack of minority representation and the tendency to kill, depower, limit, maim or limbo the minority characters they did have. And then the notion of a world where all humans were hating mutants while cheering for the FF and other non-mutant heroes stopped making sense for me. So I let it go.

Right now, Storm is marginalized. She should either lead the X-Men(or an X-team) or take a different path for her and other mutants. If they really don't have plans for her, just let her go. I would love for her to be in BP permanently, be an Avenger, do something different, other than languishing while they keep digging up more kids for the Summers ad Wolverine.

I've read X-books from the 80s to the early 2000s on a regular basis. I know what Storm is capable of and what kind of character she is. I just wish Marvel would get their isht together and do something with great with her. either in the X-books or somewhere else.

What do you think?

agreed to this!

[butterflykyss]

I'm a bit late on the possible hype train, but I only just got this week's issue of Black Panther. Damn, Ororo was amazing! True Omega showing. She took down a fleet all by herself and with no effort at all.

I bet aircrafts and ships will need to be cautious when approaching Krakoa in the future.

I didnt consider the omega thing in my analysis as to why she was able to warp the energies on the distant moon in the Zanj region but this is another reason for her being able to do this.

I love and have supported all of Gerry Duggan's Marvel books, well except Deadpool, but I have no expectations the X-Office has plans for Ororo in any X-Book.

Question: As Ororo fans do you count or disregard any development that happens outside the X-franchise? If you count the development then are you expecting too much to want it acknowledged?

I think your expectations is valid when looking at the treatment of the character over the past 10 or so years.

I totally count development that occurs outside the xoffices as these occurrences are canon as well. I do not think it's too great an expectation. Writers have to be better at working across the aisle when using the same character. I think especially does a great disservice to the readers when tons of fans want to see the development outside of the xbooks shown or acknowledged within the xbooks only to see the opposite. Hopefully Duggan will do his part to be consistent with what Coates is doing but I doubt it

This is about writers, the stories they want to tell, and the perspective they chose to take. Every character is an extension of the person writing them. If X-writers, for whatever reason, choose not to integrate Ororo's romantic relationship into their stories, that is not a reflection on the T'Challa character. It's insensible to make that kind of leap in logic. If Coates decides to include Ororo in his BP mythos, as he's done the last two or so years, that is his decision as the writer whose been allowed to reunite the characters. Coates is obviously the writer who has been charged with leading/grounding/developing the relationship. Where else would he do that but between the pages of BP? If there was a Storm comic, that writer would have that forum to explore their relationship too, as well as other parts of the character.

At best, X-writers should acknowledge their relationship because it is a current part of canon. What they shouldn't do is use their books to create situations between the two that Coates must deal with in BP. The same is true for Coates. See, unless the X-writers and Coates are truly collaborating, which I do not believe they are, they cannot easily delve into each other's storylines without the risk of creating issues another writer will either have to address or choose to ignore, thus muddying the waters.

See, without true collaboration, less is actually more. So no, T'Challa (Coates) may not say much about Krakoa in his comic because to do so could create story issues for Hickman. Does that mean T'Challa doesn't give a shit about mutants, Ororo's feelings, or is unsupportive of her interests? Of course not. What it means is that writers have to respect other writers' ability to tell the story they want to tell without being hampered by or derailed by other writers.

X-writers did that during their marriage, contradicting what Hudlin wrote in BP. That shouldn't happen, yet it was allowed to. I think everyone is being much more cautious and cognizant of such dynamics now. Ideally, it would be great if there was a greater connection with Ororo's appearance in all of the books she's in. The reality however, is that it is probably a lot harder to make that work with different authors than we as readers think. Her depiction, however, in one comic does not negate or minimize her portrayal in another simply because it isn't openly recognized across the board the way some people believe it should be.

Anyway, that's my two cents. This isn't a character issue but a writers and collaboration issue.

beautifully said my friend!!!

[Wind Rider]

Will catch up and comment later. Just sharing (nothing exciting) a link from Marvel on Marauders.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...-the-marauders

[butterflykyss]

Will catch up and comment later. Just sharing (nothing exciting) a link from Marvel on Marauders.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...-the-marauders

thanks for sharing boo. of all the summaries I thought Emma's was the most interesting. it seems that all her deception from the past won't be ignored by team. Emma from what I recall has a good relationship with iceman so I'm thinking the most pushback would come from both kitty and ororo.

however as much as I would like to until I see more of an effort by the xoffices to acknowledge coates work I think I'm going to sit this series out.

[jwatson]

Will catch up and comment later. Just sharing (nothing exciting) a link from Marvel on Marauders.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...-the-marauders

Yes Yes Yes! this sounds so good, i am loving the sound of this. I am also loving how they mentioned bobby gained control of his powers via the help of Storm and Emma. I remember those issues.

[stormphoenix]

Yes Yes Yes! this sounds so good, i am loving the sound of this. I am also loving how they mentioned bobby gained control of his powers via the help of Storm and Emma. I remember those issues.

Will catch up and comment later. Just sharing (nothing exciting) a link from Marvel on Marauders.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...-the-marauders

This series is going to do great things for Storm. The article is great I’m just happy that Marvel finally sees how great Storm can be. And a writer that actually understands her and understands that it’s not a 1 man show. I did like the fact that They mentioned how Storm and Emma helped Bobby with his powers. Not many people actually knew that Bobby came to Storm and asked for her help. We only hear about Emma. So, the Team Dynamic is perfect. Also, Kitty leading the team isn’t actually bad. Gerry Duggan is NO Guggenheim. So, I’m excited as well.

[Ororo101]

Double post, apologies

[Ororo101]

Double post, apologies

[Ororo101]

No doubt, there are real life people like that, I can't argue against your point there.

But I would like to see more humans who are not anti-mutant, who are inclusive in the X-books. Being a person who is inclusive, I feel sorely under-represented in the X-books on top of being a black male.

I fully agree with this. I also think it would calm the fires that have been going off for the more pro-human X-fans. Since many of the arguments against what the X-men have been doing have been “but not ALL humans are responsible”. What they don’t understand is that the human governments who initiate, fund, and support mutant detection/hunting robots would only do so with popular support from the public. Not full support mind you. But something akin to the percentage of people who would’ve been on board for marriage equality if it had come to the ballot in let’s say 1995. It’s not long enough ago to where it would be a landslide defeat. But it would’ve been a good 70-30 in favor of traditional marriage. Therefore nobody in the lgbt would have valid public binding relationships because of it. I’d say a good 65-70% of the public is probably anti-mutant rights. With the 30% being people who have been bold and open enough to actually get to know, experience, and develop a rapport with mutants. To see them for what they are and not fear them for what they represent or “could” be. So even though maybe only 65% of people are actually anti-mutant, the fact that it’s a majority public opinion would give the bigots and fear mongers who are in a position of power enough sway to get these murder machines green-lighted. Just like I would never make the argument that ALL police men and women are racially biased and act inappropriately and unfairly when in the field. I would actually say that majority of people who work for PDs are upstanding citizens who join to make a difference. That doesn’t matter though when the system reinforces the protection and cover up of the ones who do abuse their power with their implicit biases against people. Just because all humans aren’t anti mutant doesn’t change the fact that human based governments have enough public support and power to outright murder mutants consistently throughout the years. When people say that mutants are “racist” against humans for disliking them in generality at times, that’s what I feel like they dont understand. It doesn’t really matter if you as an individual are a more enlightened human and are in support of mutant rights and against mutant persecution. That’s amazing and you yourself are a better person than most because of it. But that doesn’t change the fact that the human systems of power have been at war against mutants since their inception. That’s also why I believe you are absolutely right that their should be more “progressive” in-world representation of humans and especially super-humans that are out and openly pro-mutant rights. I think that would portray a more realistic and balanced approach to the matter than the idea that “all humans are anti-mutant trash”. That doesn’t do anyone any good. We should show the divide in the public between those who are allies and those who aren’t because that would make humanity’s side much more sympathetic. And super-humans showing support in their positions of power in the superhero community is something that X-fans have been asking for for a very long time.

[GuiltyPleasure]

This is a nice example of how an X-writer, if they so desired, could bridge the Ororo in X-Men comics with the Ororo in BP. It's written in a way to support what Coates has written about Ororo in BP. This is from X-Men Gold #33.

Attachment 87603

[butterflykyss]

This is a nice example of how an X-writer, if they so desire, can bridge the Ororo in X-men comics with the Ororo in BP. It's written in a way to support what Coates has written about Ororo in BP. This is from X-Men Gold #33.

Attachment 87603

I dont think that writer is appropriate to reference. in fact his entire run was written to troll the work Coates was doing in BP. While Coates was writing Tchalla and Ororo in a loving relationship who was worshipped as a true goddess in Wakanda, Guggs was writing her kiss randoms like Gambit while making statements she could only be a true God with a white Norse God hammer.


He is the best example of what happens when a writer doesn't collaborate with other writers.

This series is going to do great things for Storm. The article is great I’m just happy that Marvel finally sees how great Storm can be. And a writer that actually understands her and understands that it’s not a 1 man show. I did like the fact that They mentioned how Storm and Emma helped Bobby with his powers. Not many people actually knew that Bobby came to Storm and asked for her help. We only hear about Emma. So, the Team Dynamic is perfect. Also, Kitty leading the team isn’t actually bad. Gerry Duggan is NO Guggenheim. So, I’m excited as well.

do you know the issue number and book where iceman asked storm for help? I've been looking for those scans for ages and cant find it.

[Electricmastro]

I fully agree with this. I also think it would calm the fires that have been going off for the more pro-human X-fans. Since many of the arguments against what the X-men have been doing have been “but not ALL humans are responsible”. What they don’t understand is that the human governments who initiate, fund, and support mutant detection/hunting robots would only do so with popular support from the public. Not full support mind you. But something akin to the percentage of people who would’ve been on board for marriage equality if it had come to the ballot in let’s say 1995. It’s not long enough ago to where it would be a landslide defeat. But it would’ve been a good 70-30 in favor of traditional marriage. Therefore nobody in the lgbt would have valid public binding relationships because of it. I’d say a good 65-70% of the public is probably anti-mutant rights. With the 30% being people who have been bold and open enough to actually get to know, experience, and develop a rapport with mutants. To see them for what they are and not fear them for what they represent or “could” be. So even though maybe only 65% of people are actually anti-mutant, the fact that it’s a majority public opinion would give the bigots and fear mongers who are in a position of power enough sway to get these murder machines green-lighted. Just like I would never make the argument that ALL police men and women are racially biased and act inappropriately and unfairly when in the field. I would actually say that majority of people who work for PDs are upstanding citizens who join to make a difference. That doesn’t matter though when the system reinforces the protection and cover up of the ones who do abuse their power with their implicit biases against people. Just because all humans aren’t anti mutant doesn’t change the fact that human based governments have enough public support and power to outright murder mutants consistently throughout the years. When people say that mutants are “racist” against humans for disliking them in generality at times, that’s what I feel like they dont understand. It doesn’t really matter if you as an individual are a more enlightened human and are in support of mutant rights and against mutant persecution. That’s amazing and you yourself are a better person than most because of it. But that doesn’t change the fact that the human systems of power have been at war against mutants since their inception. That’s also why I believe you are absolutely right that their should be more “progressive” in-world representation of humans and especially super-humans that are out and openly pro-mutant rights. I think that would portray a more realistic and balanced approach to the matter than the idea that “all humans are anti-mutant trash”. That doesn’t do anyone any good. We should show the divide in the public between those who are allies and those who aren’t because that would make humanity’s side much more sympathetic. And super-humans showing support in their positions of power in the superhero community is something that X-fans have been asking for for a very long time.

Yep, even the poisonous weed that is bigotry has its complex system of roots and effects. I think it's why Rick Remender's writing like with Uncanny Avengers #2 (January, 2013) stuck with me: