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  1. #6106
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Just to comment on this, I agree in principal that villains should be written very OP. I think the more powerful the villain, the more it means when the hero beats the villain. In theory it's a win win situation.

    But like everything else, it's a matter of execution. There needs to be believable reasons why a hero is ineffective if that's what's needed for the story. In this story in particularly, I think T'Challa needed to be a bit weakend OR Skull needed to be buffed up for some reason. Otherwise I think readers can walk away from this story believing that Skull is as good a fighter (or arguably even slightly better) than T'Challa. And that's not the case.

    And for the record I'm not knocking the story or the writer as a whole. Just think this one aspect was a somewhat poor showing for T'Challa. I like most of Johns stuff, and I certainly enjoyed Red Zone.
    Does it even matter dude? Priest and Hudlin did the same thing with killmonger. Here's the deal, BP, im, Thor, hulk, etc etc. Anyone with high or extremely high durability will face opponents at times where they are getting hit but it doesn't makes sense that they are getting hit as much. But it doesn't matter if the pay out or win for the hero is gloriously awesome

  2. #6107
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Me and Marvel both mentioned the Super Skrulls. It is my personal favorite (both story and combat moment)


    I was asking people to name any other moment that comes close. The list is... thin.
    When Ironman gets Windex'ed lol, BP decapitates sabertooth.. I still think Karnak taking the knee to the face was pretty cool too. And Hudlin's version of T'Challa impaling Klaw after that do you have any kids line

  3. #6108
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Does it even matter dude? Priest and Hudlin did the same thing with killmonger. Here's the deal, BP, im, Thor, hulk, etc etc. Anyone with high or extremely high durability will face opponents at times where they are getting hit but it doesn't makes sense that they are getting hit as much. But it doesn't matter if the pay out or win for the hero is gloriously awesome
    Does it matter? I'd say it matters a little. I'd rather they convey things as logically and consistantly as possible. But if a character is portrayed below his ability to hype up the villains threat level then its not the end of the world.
    Last edited by XPac; 07-20-2019 at 08:27 AM.

  4. #6109
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Does it matter? I'd say it matters a little. I'd rather they convey things as logically and consistantly as possible. But if a character is portrayed below his ability to hype up the villains threat level then its not the end of the world.
    Like yeah you don't want dumb isht like punisher knocking Thor around. But say Cage being able to stagger Thor or hulk makes a little more sense. Skull vs T'Challa and skull getting a slight advantage at the end isn't really a big deal, infact the image you posted of falcon helping didn't even show like T'Challa was going to lose, as anyone with high even basic understanding of martial arts knows a double choke hold is just asking to have yourself rocked with counter attacks

  5. #6110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Me and Marvel both mentioned the Super Skrulls. It is my personal favorite (both story and combat moment)


    I was asking people to name any other moment that comes close. The list is... thin.
    I would say the Iron man vs Black Panther fights in EotS 2, Hydro-Man battle, when he beat up Man-Ape in Guerrilla War Fare, See Wakanda & Die, Little Green Men when he beat the space wolf, Wild kingdom when he flung Wolverine into the X-men, also the marvel knights anniversary when he beat up electra & punisher.

    But compared to other heroes like daredevil or spider-man, I agree the list is thin (but people say BP is a Mary Sue-never really understand how that works)

  6. #6111
    Astonishing Member Dboi654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I would say the Iron man vs Black Panther fights in EotS 2, Hydro-Man battle, when he beat up Man-Ape in Guerrilla War Fare, See Wakanda & Die, Little Green Men when he beat the space wolf, Wild kingdom when he flung Wolverine into the X-men, also the marvel knights anniversary when he beat up electra & punisher.

    But compared to other heroes like daredevil or spider-man, I agree the list is thin (but people say BP is a Mary Sue-never really understand how that works)
    All because he put silver surfer on a chokehold.

  7. #6112
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJlock View Post


    I wasn't a fan of this moment from Red Zone because I thought " How can Tony Stark just snatch something out of the hands of a King?" T'Challa would have had the right to put hands on him just for that.

    Also, I felt he was getting up staged in Red Zone ( BP & IM should have at least both assisted in getting out of that cell, also felt BP was getting manhandled in most of the fight with Red Skull until the end).

    I personally feel that BP had a better showing in Ultron Unlimited than Red Zone

  8. #6113
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I would say the Iron man vs Black Panther fights in EotS 2, Hydro-Man battle, when he beat up Man-Ape in Guerrilla War Fare, See Wakanda & Die, Little Green Men when he beat the space wolf, Wild kingdom when he flung Wolverine into the X-men, also the marvel knights anniversary when he beat up electra & punisher.

    But compared to other heroes like daredevil or spider-man, I agree the list is thin (but people say BP is a Mary Sue-never really understand how that works)
    Need to go back and read the actual convo from the beginning. It wasn't just asking for "fights t'challa won." It was a more specific criteria. it was...

    he has some more cool fights (vs IF, vs Kraven, vs Winter Soldier, vs Lady Bullseye, vs Kingpin, various vs Killmongers, various vs M'baku, vs Marvel Knights crew, vs Lt Kathy Lee, ect) but, IMO, a lot of them he takes an L, the art is meh, he wins but other means than pure fighting, its a tie, or there is nothing real memorable about it.

    He doesn't get many chances to fight an A list villain like Skull. ANd, like I said, i understand the sentiment that he should have stomped a mudhole into him, but the ending is so good it trumps the rest IMO. It is one of those iconic comic moments everyone knows. Most people don't remember the assist from Falcon lol.
    Hydroman is cool but I believe he won via tech if I remember correctly (plus there isn't a super memorable panel). BPvIM were tech wins (windex) or Happy Pants, man ape wasn't really memorable, SWAD we mentioned, the space wolf is a great example though, the other ones weren't fights to the finish or anything like that.

    Like I said though, I understand why some people wanted more from the actual fight. Completely. I just think the overall story and the ending trump it by far. JMO though

    I probably woudln't put it in my top 10 BP fights... but I would definitely put it in my top 10 BP moments. If that makes sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I wasn't a fan of this moment from Red Zone because I thought " How can Tony Stark just snatch something out of the hands of a King?" T'Challa would have had the right to put hands on him just for that.
    He let him take it. That was the point.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  9. #6114
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I wasn't a fan of this moment from Red Zone because I thought " How can Tony Stark just snatch something out of the hands of a King?" T'Challa would have had the right to put hands on him just for that.

    Also, I felt he was getting up staged in Red Zone ( BP & IM should have at least both assisted in getting out of that cell, also felt BP was getting manhandled in most of the fight with Red Skull until the end).

    I personally feel that BP had a better showing in Ultron Unlimited than Red Zone
    Ultron Unlimited isn't a story that gets a whole lot of props on the BP side, but I would agree that Busiek actually did some nice things with T'Challa there. It was neat that he's one of the few Avengers capable of actually hurting Ultron with his standard offense. Not that the energy daggers alone could beat him or anything... but they at least worked. It's a small thing, but I thought it was cool.

  10. #6115
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Need to go back and read the actual convo from the beginning. It wasn't just asking for "fights t'challa won." It was a more specific criteria. it was...



    Hydroman is cool but I believe he won via tech if I remember correctly (plus there isn't a super memorable panel). BPvIM were tech wins (windex) or Happy Pants, man ape wasn't really memorable, SWAD we mentioned, the space wolf is a great example though, the other ones weren't fights to the finish or anything like that.

    Like I said though, I understand why some people wanted more from the actual fight. Completely. I just think the overall story and the ending trump it by far. JMO though

    I probably woudln't put it in my top 10 BP fights... but I would definitely put it in my top 10 BP moments. If that makes sense.




    He let him take it. That was the point.
    Another example would Cap vs BP (too bad the art quality is poor) & Karnak vs BP in Hudlin's Civil War story. You know I now see why people credit Hudlin run with a beat-you-down type of T'Challa. Hudlin Panther ma have lacked feats but he took people out lol.

    Does the Deadpool fight in the deadpool series count?

  11. #6116
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I wasn't a fan of this moment from Red Zone because I thought " How can Tony Stark just snatch something out of the hands of a King?" T'Challa would have had the right to put hands on him just for that.

    Also, I felt he was getting up staged in Red Zone ( BP & IM should have at least both assisted in getting out of that cell, also felt BP was getting manhandled in most of the fight with Red Skull until the end).

    I personally feel that BP had a better showing in Ultron Unlimited than Red Zone
    Ultron Unlimited was a great showing for the Avengers once they got to Ultron but it wasn't BP who took down Ultron. It was Hank Pym. BP had his moments but it was Hank's moment.

    BP had very little characterization in Ultron Unlimited. Don't get me wrong, I love the story but there really was no defining moment for T'Challa in that fight.

    There was in Red Zone.

  12. #6117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Ultron Unlimited was a great showing for the Avengers once they got to Ultron but it wasn't BP who took down Ultron. It was Hank Pym. BP had his moments but it was Hank's moment.

    BP had very little characterization in Ultron Unlimited. Don't get me wrong, I love the story but there really was no defining moment for T'Challa in that fight.

    There was in Red Zone.
    BP held his own and had the energy dagger feat in Ultron Unlimited. Ultron had just killed an entire country and BP held his own against Ultron. Also Busiek didn't neglect BP's standard gear in the story line. In Red Zone, it's as if BP doesn't have the Vibranium Weave and gets manhadled by Red Skull until the end. Additionally, IMHO, Iron Man comes off as more capable than T'Challa in Red Zone, where as BP is equally capable to his follow Avengers in Ultron Unlimited.

    Furthermore, I felt it was a one sided argument about Wakanda sharing their resources with the rest of the world in Red Zone. How come Reed Richard or Tony Stark don't share their tech with everyone. Before T'Challa becomes Black Panther, Wakanda is attacked twice by the outside world to plunder their resources ( Flags of our Fathers and 1st issue of Rise), but Wakanda needs to share?

  13. #6118
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    BP held his own and had the energy dagger feat in Ultron Unlimited. Ultron had just killed an entire country and BP held his own against Ultron. Also Busiek didn't neglect BP's standard gear in the story line. In Red Zone, it's as if BP doesn't have the Vibranium Weave and gets manhadled by Red Skull until the end. Additionally, IMHO, Iron Man comes off as more capable than T'Challa in Red Zone, where as BP is equally capable to his follow Avengers in Ultron Unlimited.

    Furthermore, I felt it was a one sided argument about Wakanda sharing their resources with the rest of the world in Red Zone. How come Reed Richard or Tony Stark don't share their tech with everyone. Before T'Challa becomes Black Panther, Wakanda is attacked twice by the outside world to plunder their resources ( Flags of our Fathers and 1st issue of Rise), but Wakanda needs to share?
    I'm not sure anyone does comic book fights better than Busiek, because he has such zen perfect continuity. If a character has gear then he actually uses it. It doesn't just magically vanish when it's not convenient for the story. The BP stuff in Ultron Unlimited was small, but appreciated especially in light of how much of BP's standard gear would vanish after Priest.

  14. #6119
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    BP held his own and had the energy dagger feat in Ultron Unlimited. Ultron had just killed an entire country and BP held his own against Ultron. Also Busiek didn't neglect BP's standard gear in the story line. In Red Zone, it's as if BP doesn't have the Vibranium Weave and gets manhadled by Red Skull until the end. Additionally, IMHO, Iron Man comes off as more capable than T'Challa in Red Zone, where as BP is equally capable to his follow Avengers in Ultron Unlimited.

    Furthermore, I felt it was a one sided argument about Wakanda sharing their resources with the rest of the world in Red Zone. How come Reed Richard or Tony Stark don't share their tech with everyone. Before T'Challa becomes Black Panther, Wakanda is attacked twice by the outside world to plunder their resources ( Flags of our Fathers and 1st issue of Rise), but Wakanda needs to share?
    I did say BP had his moments in Ultron Unlimited but it wasn't a greater showing than Red Zone imo. People say he had help from Falcon vs Skull but the entire team helped him against Ultron(rightfully so).

    Holding his own against Ultron isn't the same as beating Skull.

  15. #6120
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    BP held his own and had the energy dagger feat in Ultron Unlimited. Ultron had just killed an entire country and BP held his own against Ultron. Also Busiek didn't neglect BP's standard gear in the story line. In Red Zone, it's as if BP doesn't have the Vibranium Weave and gets manhadled by Red Skull until the end. Additionally, IMHO, Iron Man comes off as more capable than T'Challa in Red Zone, where as BP is equally capable to his follow Avengers in Ultron Unlimited.

    Furthermore, I felt it was a one sided argument about Wakanda sharing their resources with the rest of the world in Red Zone. How come Reed Richard or Tony Stark don't share their tech with everyone. Before T'Challa becomes Black Panther, Wakanda is attacked twice by the outside world to plunder their resources ( Flags of our Fathers and 1st issue of Rise), but Wakanda needs to share?
    That's actually a very good point about the hypocrisy and double standards involved in blasting T'Challa and Wakanda as a whole for not sharing their advancements with the world, but leaving Stark, Richards, and even Pym alone. I would ask what the difference is between them, but I think we already know.
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