Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[jwatson]

That almost another thousand copy slide. If this trend continues, it's going to be below 10,000 by the time this story ends. That will result in cancellation or creative team reboot.

Exactly it's ridiculous. I don't give a flying what anyone says. How can you be about black love, and black success and black whatever but your okay with one of the few black heroes we got being at these numbers and still want to support said writer. I call bullshit on these suppose stans of black success.

[DigiCom]

The thing is, you can make the arguement that even the Wakandan culture itself didn't necessarily have a very high view of the Dora system. Under Priest T'Challa only recently brought it back... which meant the Wakandans themselves for a period of time stopped using the wives in training thing. And the only reason it was even brought back was to help keep the tribes from going to war with each other. Under Priest it was painted more as a necessarily evil than anything else. I don't think under Priest at least the system was ever intended to actually look good. Priest wasn't trying anywhere near as hard as Hudlin to make Wakanda come off utopian.

For once, we actually agree on something. There's no evidence that Priest thought any deeper about the DM than "Hmm.. I wonder how I can make T'Challa look as badass as possible in his first panel? I know! Supermodel bodyguards!"

(He pretty much says as much on his website, actually)

And yes, Hudlin definitely raised Wakanda's profile with the whole "unconquered" schtick, which is both a good & a bad thing. Good, because it made the country more unique, but bad because there's nothing some writers like to do more than to break a streak...

I think it's a mistake to assume that the DM were unpopular. It could just as easily been the case that, for one reason or another, the monarchs just stopped doing it.

Maybe there was a past BP who didn't like having them around (because he was happily married, gay, or just preferred to fight his own battles).

Maybe they became more of a ceremonial thing over time, like the Tower Guards in London.

Maybe one of the former leaders of the Hatut Zeraze scored a political point one day and convinced the reigning monarch to disband them.

Hell, maybe they were disbanded the first time a woman took the throne.

It's very easy to ascribe your own motives to fictional creations. The key is to remember that they aren't necessarily the motives the writer had in mind.

[DigiCom]

That almost another thousand copy slide. If this trend continues, it's going to be below 10,000 by the time this story ends. That will result in cancellation or creative team reboot.

Yeah, when a freakin' spinoff sells better than the main book, there's a problem somewhere.

[Tofali]

If I were tasked with resolving the conflict, I would suggest that (as T'Challa needed bodyguards who could blend in) Nakia & Okoye were Dora Milaje trainees, who had not yet taken their final oaths (and hence, not received their head tattoos). When Nakia went rogue, there were no other novices old enough to take her place, necessitating the recruitment of QDJ.

Perhaps also due to Nakia's actions, T'Challa & the Dora leadership decided that having trainees live in the palace was a bad idea, which is why we don't see any other young Dora running around underfoot. They may have also decided to downplay the whole "potential wives" thing at the same time, to avoid the possibility of any other impressionable young girls going the Ginny Weasley route.

The spouse in training can be simply resolved by having the Hatut Zeraze be Husband in training when the BP is a woman.

[Ezyo1000]

Ezyo1000, look at you exposing more of our SHARED bias. You and I both know Hudlin’s intent behind those scenes. At the same time, you and I BOTH know that MANY of her fans made arguments to the contrary. The argument is flimsy, but it’s not hard for me to understand why MANY OF HER FANS felt that way. I’ll do you one better. I’m damn sure you and I BOTH have witnessed some of her fans use her throwaway lines to Psylocke and Magneto about T’Challa “beating her” as their “proof” that he was a bad husband. It was in the aftermath of AvX and it went completely against the actual story to paint a different picture. She was the one that got violent before tossing the ring. We’ve seen that angle used despite the disingenuous nature of the argument all together. The argument itself may be flimsy, but her words are NOT a complete lie, given he did place hands on her in World’s Apart. I’m also aware it’s a narrative set forth by writers that had written X-books previously or later went on to do so.

But we again have to remember who wrote wolds apart. It wasn't a BP scribe who had the mythos best Interest at heart. It was an x writer and the Creator of gentle, who's only lot in his creation is to throw shade at Wakanda on some straight up bullisht.

The bad husband thing, was all x related as well. That's the biggest thing to realize. The x office had done more to undercut and mess with BP and Storm then any other franchise. To the point where BP fans just said frak it, keep her out, it's not worth the trouble.

And it's why many of us here don't care to see Storm in the mythos again and especially getting all the attention and feats she's getting In T'Challas book. It's not because we hate Storm, or hate Black women or anything like that. It's the fact that one, the x office acts like spoiled children, they don't care about their toy until another kid is playing with it then all of a sudden they have to have it back and will cry scream and throw a fit till they get it and once they do they throw it back in the bin and forget about it all over again.

So until Storm can be treated with respect in her own franchise (or she is given to the BP franchise) she shouldn't be coming to this mythos to get the development her own franchise doesn't care to give her

[XPac]

For once, we actually agree on something. There's no evidence that Priest thought any deeper about the DM than "Hmm.. I wonder how I can make T'Challa look as badass as possible in his first panel? I know! Supermodel bodyguards!"

(He pretty much says as much on his website, actually)

And yes, Hudlin definitely raised Wakanda's profile with the whole "unconquered" schtick, which is both a good & a bad thing. Good, because it made the country more unique, but bad because there's nothing some writers like to do more than to break a streak...

I think it's a mistake to assume that the DM were unpopular. It could just as easily been the case that, for one reason or another, the monarchs just stopped doing it.

Maybe there was a past BP who didn't like having them around (because he was happily married, gay, or just preferred to fight his own battles).

Maybe they became more of a ceremonial thing over time, like the Tower Guards in London.

Maybe one of the former leaders of the Hatut Zeraze scored a political point one day and convinced the reigning monarch to disband them.

Hell, maybe they were disbanded the first time a woman took the throne.

It's very easy to ascribe your own motives to fictional creations. The key is to remember that they aren't necessarily the motives the writer had in mind.

Fair point. We don't know enough about the situation to know why Wakanda stopped using the Doras prior to T'Challa bringing it back.

That said, I DO think it's fair to argue that the book itself did not paint the institution in a positive light. There's good reason the MCU completely eliminated those elements of the Doras and simply made them body guards... and it's the same reason Coates needed to end the system entirely. You get to keep the amazom warrior women without identifying them as teenage wifes in training. It just works better all around.

[Marvell2100]

For once, we actually agree on something. There's no evidence that Priest thought any deeper about the DM than "Hmm.. I wonder how I can make T'Challa look as badass as possible in his first panel? I know! Supermodel bodyguards!"

(He pretty much says as much on his website, actually)

And yes, Hudlin definitely raised Wakanda's profile with the whole "unconquered" schtick, which is both a good & a bad thing. Good, because it made the country more unique, but bad because there's nothing some writers like to do more than to break a streak...

I think it's a mistake to assume that the DM were unpopular. It could just as easily been the case that, for one reason or another, the monarchs just stopped doing it.

Maybe there was a past BP who didn't like having them around (because he was happily married, gay, or just preferred to fight his own battles).

Maybe they became more of a ceremonial thing over time, like the Tower Guards in London.

Maybe one of the former leaders of the Hatut Zeraze scored a political point one day and convinced the reigning monarch to disband them.

Hell, maybe they were disbanded the first time a woman took the throne.

It's very easy to ascribe your own motives to fictional creations. The key is to remember that they aren't necessarily the motives the writer had in mind.

It seems to me that the only reason the Doras were re-introduced was because T'Challa was not married. Why have wives in training if the King is already married. Hudlin then retconned them into being the Secret Service.

[XPac]

The spouse in training can be simply resolved by having the Hatut Zeraze be Husband in training when the BP is a woman.

While that sollution at least offers more gender equality, I think eliminating spouses in training as a whole is probably the way to go.

That said, it does make you wonder how having a female BP works. We got one in Shuri, but they made no mention of her having the male equivalent of the DM. Even after Shuri became BP, they seemed to continue serving T'CHalla rather than SHuir.

[Ezyo1000]

The spouse in training can be simply resolved by having the Hatut Zeraze be Husband in training when the BP is a woman.

With Shuri in Hickmans time runs out story, they pretty much were. Before the DM broke away from T'Challa, shuri always had HZ with her and T'Challa had the DM.

One thing I think is interesting that people are also glossing over is this. People are getting hung up on the wives in training aspect of it for why it needed to go, well I ask this, think about EVERYTHING that comes with being a Dora from Priest run. Then from the writer's to follow. DM are bodyguards, highly trained h2h fighters, weapon specialists, marksmen, professional driver's, undercover agents when needed, have a level of authority, pilot's, etc. All wrapped into one dangerous person, in priest case, this much talent in a 16 year old. If that's what wife in training looks like in Wakandan culture I can't say it's as bad as people like to think

[XPac]

With Shuri in Hickmans time runs out story, they pretty much were. Before the DM broke away from T'Challa, shuri always had HZ with her and T'Challa had the DM.

One thing I think is interesting that people are also glossing over is this. People are getting hung up on the wives in training aspect of it for why it needed to go, well I ask this, think about EVERYTHING that comes with being a Dora from Priest run. Then from the writer's to follow. DM are bodyguards, highly trained h2h fighters, weapon specialists, marksmen, professional driver's, undercover agents when needed, have a level of authority, pilot's, etc. All wrapped into one dangerous person, in priest case, this much talent in a 16 year old. If that's what wife in training looks like in Wakandan culture I can't say it's as bad as people like to think

People tend to get hung up on the wives in training stuff for the same reason people got hung up on the treehouse rape stuff... it stands out a lot because it goes outside normal comic book stuff. In comics teenage girls who can fight isn't that unusual... but teenage girls who are trained to be wives for a super hero husband is pretty out of the norm. And it's not like Priest made any attempts at making it come off as acceptable... when we're told these girls can't talk to other people and that civil wars can break out if they date, the narrative doesn't exactly paint it in a positive light. It's why other writers sort of glossed over those aspects, and why the MCU flat out eliminated it.

Are are definately cool elements to the DM... it's why the baby wasn't thrown out with the bath water. They still exist in the comics and the movies, just without the more questionable elements.

[DigiCom]

People tend to get hung up on the wives in training stuff for the same reason people got hung up on the treehouse rape stuff... it stands out a lot because it goes outside normal comic book stuff. In comics teenage girls who can fight isn't that unusual... but teenage girls who are trained to be wives for a super hero husband is pretty out of the norm. And it's not like Priest made any attempts at making it come off as acceptable... when we're told these girls can't talk to other people and that civil wars can break out if they date, the narrative doesn't exactly paint it in a positive light. It's why other writers sort of glossed over those aspects, and why the MCU flat out eliminated it.

Actually, I re-read what Priest had to say, and there are a few elements that people may have missed. Here's a relevant bit, with my emphasis:

"Joe and Jimmy just thought it'd be cool to have Panther travel with a pair of 6-foot tall gorgeous women, and I certainly agreed, but the order of the Dora Milaje, a kind of nun/wife-in-training deal, gave us a foot in both of the worlds the Panther struggled to maintain peace between: the modern and the tribal."

In the Priest run, T'Challa also served as head of the Panther religion, so the idea of "Brides of Bast" actually makes a sort of sense. We aren't talking about a harem, here... if the DM are nuns of a sort, the vows are more spiritual... dedicating onesself to the cult of Bast, as embodied in the Panther.

Unless, of course, you are a hormonal teenager with attachment issues.

Are are definately cool elements to the DM... it's why the baby wasn't thrown out with the bath water. They still exist in the comics and the movies, just without the more questionable elements.

I would argue that Coates DID throw out the baby with the bathwater, by having so many of the Dora Milaje go rogue. I think he cared less about making the DM more palatable, and more about his cultural agenda. Coogler did a MUCH better job, which may be why Okoye is getting a push, and Aneka isn't.

[XPac]

Actually, I re-read what Priest had to say, and there are a few elements that people may have missed. Here's a relevant bit, with my emphasis:

"Joe and Jimmy just thought it'd be cool to have Panther travel with a pair of 6-foot tall gorgeous women, and I certainly agreed, but the order of the Dora Milaje, a kind of nun/wife-in-training deal, gave us a foot in both of the worlds the Panther struggled to maintain peace between: the modern and the tribal."

In the Priest run, T'Challa also served as head of the Panther religion, so the idea of "Brides of Bast" actually makes a sort of sense. We aren't talking about a harem, here... if the DM are nuns of a sort, the vows are more spiritual... dedicating onesself to the cult of Bast, as embodied in the Panther.

Unless, of course, you are a hormonal teenager with attachment issues.



I would argue that Coates DID throw out the baby with the bathwater, by having so many of the Dora Milaje go rogue. I think he cared less about making the DM more palatable, and more about his cultural agenda. Coogler did a MUCH better job, which may be why Okoye is getting a push, and Aneka isn't.

Having them go rogue means they can't become wives in training again if T'Challa (or in theory some other BP) changes their mind and decides he wants to be again. They broke the wheel. They're still warrior women, which presumably is the baby... they're just not wives in training, aka the bath water.

And yeah, Coogler did a better job. Easier to do though when he has a complete clean slate though. He's not handcuffed with continuity and can basically say the DM are whatever the heck he wants them to be. And wisely he opted for them NOT to be wives in training.

[DigiCom]

Having them go rogue means they can't become wives in training again if T'Challa (or in theory some other BP) changes their mind and decides he wants to be again. They're still warrior women, which presumably is the baby... they're just not wives in training, aka the bath water.

And yeah, Coogler did a better job. Easier to do though when he has a complete clean slate though. He's not handcuffed with continuity and can basically say the DM are whatever the heck he wants them to be. And wisely he opted for them NOT to be wives in training.

I'm not giving Coates a pass for that. Every single BP scribe has ignored parts of continuity when it suited them. I mean Kirby even ignored HIMSELF, when he introduced the idea of Black Panther as a mantle, as opposed to a secret identity T'Challa created on his own. And he ignored McGregor to create "Happy Pants" Panther.

(Of course, McGregor turned around and ignored him, so fair's fair. )

And then Priest ignored McGregor (specifically, the "crack in Wakanda" parts of Panther's Prey). Hudlin ignored Priest (more or less). I haven't read Liss yet (I know, I've been remiss), but I bet he ignored stuff too.

So saying Coates was "handcuffed by continuity" is a bit disingenuous, IMO.

[XPac]

I'm not giving Coates a pass for that. Every single BP scribe has ignored parts of continuity when it suited them. I mean Kirby even ignored HIMSELF, when he introduced the idea of Black Panther as a mantle, as opposed to a secret identity T'Challa created on his own. And he ignored McGregor to create "Happy Pants" Panther.

(Of course, McGregor turned around and ignored him, so fair's fair. )

And then Priest ignored McGregor (specifically, the "crack in Wakanda" parts of Panther's Prey). Hudlin ignored Priest (more or less). I haven't read Liss yet (I know, I've been remiss), but I bet he ignored stuff too.

So saying Coates was "handcuffed by continuity" is a bit disingenuous, IMO.

I'm not saying Coates is the ONLY comic book writer handcuffed by continuity... all comic book writers are and SHOULD be.

I'm just making the point because Coogler is creating the first BP movie, he's mostly starting from scratch (apart from the bits about Wakanda we learned in Civil War). And that makes things easier for him. It's a blank slate. If Coogler decides he doesn't want the DM to be brides in training, he simply needs to NOT mention in the movie that they're wives in training and he's done. Coates and every writer after Priest don't have that option UNLESS they flat out retcon it. You CAN choose to simply ignore it (which is what most BP writers do), but because Priests run is still canon the continuity stands until it's retconned.

Coates is a link in a chain, but Coogler started his. So everything everyone else does is essentially based on him.

[Ezyo1000]

People tend to get hung up on the wives in training stuff for the same reason people got hung up on the treehouse rape stuff... it stands out a lot because it goes outside normal comic book stuff. In comics teenage girls who can fight isn't that unusual... but teenage girls who are trained to be wives for a super hero husband is pretty out of the norm. And it's not like Priest made any attempts at making it come off as acceptable... when we're told these girls can't talk to other people and that civil wars can break out if they date, the narrative doesn't exactly paint it in a positive light. It's why other writers sort of glossed over those aspects, and why the MCU flat out eliminated it.

Are are definately cool elements to the DM... it's why the baby wasn't thrown out with the bath water. They still exist in the comics and the movies, just without the more questionable elements.

Uhhh no it's not the same as treehouse rape. The tree house rape falls directly into a very real western racist view of Africa and Africans. Not the same thing at all. And they weren't trained to be wives. There was a potential for the king to marry one or both of they chose to, but they were bodyguards first and foremost. And also it's a warrior nation, do you expect the queen to be just as deadly as the king, but even so they weren't simply learning the ways of courtship and how to be a queen and being a housewife or something. It was a very strict regime, again given what all the Dora's are capable of.

Also to get rid of it, how it was set up by Hudlin? It literally could of just rerconned it completely to be just bodyguards. The fact that Coates and Gay drug it up in the manner they did to "fix" it actually did way more harm then good