Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[DigiCom]

Frankly, I've become disenchanted with superhero comics in general, because so very few of them are aspirational in any way. It feels like since roughly 2004, the great majority of Big Two comics have focused on how "unrealistic", broken, or downright delusional heroes are. Idealism has given way to cynicism and navel-gazing.

The MCU is a notable exception, but we are already seeing a backlash against their style of escapism, with films like Brightburn and the upcoming Joker film. And even in this very thread, we have people who think the best thing they can do in the next film is to flood Wakanda, because trashing a borderline utopia is someho good storytelling.

(In all fairness, if you look at the 616 universe, destroying exotic cultures has become something of a cliche. Attilan, Atlantis, Wakanda, Olympia, etc...)

It's a far cry from how superhero comics used to be. I always recall the words of the late Harlan Ellison, speaking about a certain Big Blue Boy Scout from the Distinguished Competition:

"He is more than the fanciful daydream of two Cleveland schoolboys. He is the 20th-century archetype of mankind at its finest. He is courage and humanity, steadfastness and decency, responsibility and ethic. He is our universal longing for perfection, for wisdom and power used in the service of the human race.

Of all the literary creations of American fiction, Superman, after all these years, born of a 'dispensable, disreputable' genre, is the only one that seems certain to get Posterity's nod. And that is because, simply put, he is our highest aspirations in human form."

There's one bit I'd like to highlight:

"…wisdom and power used in the service of the human race."

That's Black Panther, too.

[Cville]

Frankly, I've become disenchanted with superhero comics in general, because so very few of them are aspirational in any way. It feels like since roughly 2004, the great majority of Big Two comics have focused on how "unrealistic", broken, or downright delusional heroes are. Idealism has given way to cynicism and navel-gazing.

The MCU is a notable exception, but we are already seeing a backlash against their style of escapism, with films like Brightburn and the upcoming Joker film. And even in this very thread, we have people who think the best thing they can do in the next film is to flood Wakanda, because trashing a borderline utopia is someho good storytelling.

(In all fairness, if you look at the 616 universe, destroying exotic cultures has become something of a cliche. Attilan, Atlantis, Wakanda, Olympia, etc...)

It's a far cry from how superhero comics used to be. I always recall the words of the late Harlan Ellison, speaking about a certain Big Blue Boy Scout from the Distinguished Competition:

"He is more than the fanciful daydream of two Cleveland schoolboys. He is the 20th-century archetype of mankind at its finest. He is courage and humanity, steadfastness and decency, responsibility and ethic. He is our universal longing for perfection, for wisdom and power used in the service of the human race.

Of all the literary creations of American fiction, Superman, after all these years, born of a 'dispensable, disreputable' genre, is the only one that seems certain to get Posterity's nod. And that is because, simply put, he is our highest aspirations in human form."

There's one bit I'd like to highlight:

"…wisdom and power used in the service of the human race."

That's Black Panther, too.

That 2004 through Siege era was my comics "Golden Age" DC and Marvel had some of their best output. Then they tried to go back to the classics with Heroic Age and that's when I got off the train.

[Huntsman Spider]

Frankly, I've become disenchanted with superhero comics in general, because so very few of them are aspirational in any way. It feels like since roughly 2004, the great majority of Big Two comics have focused on how "unrealistic", broken, or downright delusional heroes are. Idealism has given way to cynicism and navel-gazing.

The MCU is a notable exception, but we are already seeing a backlash against their style of escapism, with films like Brightburn and the upcoming Joker film. And even in this very thread, we have people who think the best thing they can do in the next film is to flood Wakanda, because trashing a borderline utopia is someho good storytelling.

(In all fairness, if you look at the 616 universe, destroying exotic cultures has become something of a cliche. Attilan, Atlantis, Wakanda, Olympia, etc...)

It's a far cry from how superhero comics used to be. I always recall the words of the late Harlan Ellison, speaking about a certain Big Blue Boy Scout from the Distinguished Competition:

"He is more than the fanciful daydream of two Cleveland schoolboys. He is the 20th-century archetype of mankind at its finest. He is courage and humanity, steadfastness and decency, responsibility and ethic. He is our universal longing for perfection, for wisdom and power used in the service of the human race.

Of all the literary creations of American fiction, Superman, after all these years, born of a 'dispensable, disreputable' genre, is the only one that seems certain to get Posterity's nod. And that is because, simply put, he is our highest aspirations in human form."

There's one bit I'd like to highlight:

"…wisdom and power used in the service of the human race."

That's Black Panther, too.

That 2004 through Siege era was my comics "Golden Age" DC and Marvel had some of their best output. Then they tried to go back to the classics with Heroic Age and that's when I got off the train.

I can relate to that somewhat, insofar as Civil War being where I started following what Marvel was doing in the comics on forums like these, mostly due to the questions and issues being raised by Civil War and how those related to then-contemporary American society and politics. That said, I find myself agreeing more with Beware of Geek's condemnation of how freaking nihilistic superhero comics have become, and I would say that's in large part due to bringing people in to revitalize the medium last decade or so who think realism means "everyone is a screwed-up, maladjusted, dysfunctional, borderline-psychotic wreck, and anyone claiming otherwise is naïve or stupid at best and a liar at worst." Marvel did make a name for itself back in the 1960s with (more) realistically flawed characters, but the ones that were supposed to be heroes were able to rise above that and still provide something worth aspiring to meet. Of course, while both the Big Two have made brave attempts at bringing back some semblance of idealism or at least hope, the pendulum all too quickly or inevitably swings back the other way.

[DigiCom]

That 2004 through Siege era was my comics "Golden Age" DC and Marvel had some of their best output. Then they tried to go back to the classics with Heroic Age and that's when I got off the train.

My first comic was purchased in 1975. For me, the "golden age" of comics was probably around 1985, when you had some of the greatest runs ever at Marvel & DC. Frankly, I'm too old-school for the modern "deconstructive" era.

[DigiCom]

That said, I find myself agreeing more with Beware of Geek's condemnation of how freaking nihilistic superhero comics have become, and I would say that's in large part due to bringing people in to revitalize the medium last decade or so who think realism means "everyone is a screwed-up, maladjusted, dysfunctional, borderline-psychotic wreck, and anyone claiming otherwise is naïve or stupid at best and a liar at worst."

^This is EXACTLY my problem.

[H-E-D]

I've enjoyed quite a bit of the modern age of comics – I must admit that's where the majority of my Marvel reading comes from – but I am tired of nihilists and Mark Millars of modern comics. Ultimate Spider-Man ages so much better than the Ultimates because of the way Bendis and Bagley preserved the actual appeal of the character in their updating of the property. It's quite telling that while the MCU takes a lot of queues from the Ultimate line in terms of costume design and worldbuilding, such as the Avengers, they always have a very different tone.

[MouserGrey]

This seems to have turned into a cliche nowadays, but anyone who has read Joseph Campbell and applied his templates to the fiction ( and sometimes nonfiction) they have read or watched should be able to see the importance of having hyperbolic narratives showcasing the human struggle with their bwttwr and worse angels. I believe the current deconstruction period is some kind of backlash to the broad influence Campbell had on modern storytelling.

[Cville]

I've enjoyed quite a bit of the modern age of comics – I must admit that's where the majority of my Marvel reading comes from – but I am tired of nihilists and Mark Millars of modern comics. Ultimate Spider-Man ages so much better than the Ultimates because of the way Bendis and Bagley preserved the actual appeal of the character in their updating of the property. It's quite telling that while the MCU takes a lot of queues from the Ultimate line in terms of costume design and worldbuilding, such as the Avengers, they always have a very different tone.

I can't have you coming after Mark Millar. lol.

He's doing excellent work with his Netflix partnership. Just waiting on that Prodigy adaptation announcement.

[DigiCom]

This seems to have turned into a cliche nowadays, but anyone who has read Joseph Campbell and applied his templates to the fiction ( and sometimes nonfiction) they have read or watched should be able to see the importance of having hyperbolic narratives showcasing the human struggle with their bwttwr and worse angels. I believe the current deconstruction period is some kind of backlash to the broad influence Campbell had on modern storytelling.

My theory is more that there's a crop of new writers who believe that comics must be more "literary", which usually translates to character-driven stories with a lot of "ordinary" plots and introspection. It's all about "trying to understand what makes someone act like a superhero (or king, in the case of BP)" without actually having the characters ACT like heroes (or kings).

Look at the Nolan Bat-films, or the Craig Bonds. 2 or 3 movies showing how the main characters "become" their roles, and in the next film, they are already washed up.

M. Coates is clearly an example of this, as his entire run seems devoted to showing T'Challa in situations (the MA revolt, the Adversary/Orisha thing, the space arc) where he is out of his element and being manipulated by events, not actually driving the plot in any real fashion. T'Challa has had almost NO agency.

[Huntsman Spider]

My first comic was purchased in 1975. For me, the "golden age" of comics was probably around 1985, when you had some of the greatest runs ever at Marvel & DC. Frankly, I'm too old-school for the modern "deconstructive" era.

The 1980s pioneered deconstruction in superhero comics, but I would argue it was written with greater forethought and deeper analysis and exploration of the characters and the world they inhabited than what we were getting after the dawn of the 21st century. Either that, or 1980s superhero deconstructions were simply written with greater respect for the characters than was being shown in the 2000s, where the premise back in the 1980s was just asking whether or not these characters could function in "the real world," but in the 2000s, the premise was instead stating, "No, these characters couldn't and wouldn't function in the real world at all, because they're inherently ridiculously simplistic and even childish."

The difference, of course, was that the earlier deconstructions were still open to the possibility that superheroes could function in something like the real world, while later, more modern deconstructions just took apart the entire premise of the superhero and the setting that would accommodate the existence of such a being or character. It also helped that the earlier deconstructions of the 1980s were set outside mainstream Marvel/DC canon and thus good test platforms for experimenting with new and radical ideas without compromising the integrity of longstanding heroes in both universes, whereas by the 2000s, the argument that the Big Two had grown stale and boring and needed some freshness injected into them led to contemporary creators approaching deconstruction with a "tear it open and see what comes out" mindset. That might be it.

I've enjoyed quite a bit of the modern age of comics – I must admit that's where the majority of my Marvel reading comes from – but I am tired of nihilists and Mark Millars of modern comics. Ultimate Spider-Man ages so much better than the Ultimates because of the way Bendis and Bagley preserved the actual appeal of the character in their updating of the property. It's quite telling that while the MCU takes a lot of queues from the Ultimate line in terms of costume design and worldbuilding, such as the Avengers, they always have a very different tone.

Agreed on Ultimate Spider-Man vs. Ultimates. Looking back on it, a lot of Ultimate Spider-Man was about rejecting the cynicism, if not outright nihilism, prevalent throughout the rest of Ultimate Marvel --- which Mark Millar did have a large hand in, given his runs on Ultimate X-Men, Ultimates, and Ultimate Fantastic Four --- as while Peter might have been derided in-universe for being a naïve kid with no idea of how the world really worked, he knew just enough to be sickened by it and refuse to accept it as just "the way of things," unlike so many of his adult contemporaries.

However, I can agree with Cville to some extent that Millar is capable of excellent, thought-provoking work when he's in the mood for it. I also still have a soft spot for his Marvel Knights Spider-Man, mostly due to the revelation that the early supervillains that emerged to challenge the then-nascent superhero population were being engineered or backed by corrupt industrialists and politicians wanting to distract the superheroes from their own greater crimes against society and humanity or prevent them from using their powers and abilities to genuinely improve on said society and uplift humanity. To me, that explains quite nicely why the status quo remains as it is in the contemporary Marvel Universe, and updates the setting without completely crapping on it.

[Blind Wedjat]

Agreed on the nihilism. I'll say it's not that I'm totally against it, but what I really despise is how often it's done. When Marvel or DC can't find anything to do creatively with a character, their stories suddenly turn into either or a combination of the following:

- "X hero loses it all!"
- "X hero loses his/her powers!"
- "The dark(er) origin behind X hero!"
- "The representative nation of X hero gets destroyed!"
- "X hero can't remember who they are!"
- "X hero is actually evil/is really really shady now!"
- "X hero doesn't really want to be a hero anymore!"
- "X hero dies!"

All it leads to is character assassination, redundant storytelling, and dull reads.

Sometimes I ask myself: Is it impossible for a writer in this day and age to actually tell a story that explores what it means to be a hero in a world that isn't perfect?

[H-E-D]

However, I can agree with Cville to some extent that Millar is capable of excellent, thought-provoking work when he's in the mood for it. I also still have a soft spot for his Marvel Knights Spider-Man, mostly due to the revelation that the early supervillains that emerged to challenge the then-nascent superhero population were being engineered or backed by corrupt industrialists and politicians wanting to distract the superheroes from their own greater crimes against society and humanity or prevent them from using their powers and abilities to genuinely improve on said society and uplift humanity. To me, that explains quite nicely why the status quo remains as it is in the contemporary Marvel Universe, and updates the setting without completely crapping on it.

I know he has it in him, but he just does phoned-in grimdark stuff so often. I admit I've been offput enough by it that I don't make a habit of reading his stuff anymore, so perhaps he's gotten better. But so many of the books he's known for just do not work for me – his Ultimates stuff, Red Son, Kick-Ass, Civil War, Nemesis, Kingsman, the Authority...

[Huntsman Spider]

Agreed on the nihilism. I'll say it's not that I'm totally against it, but what I really despise is how often it's done. When Marvel or DC can't find anything to do creatively with a character, their stories suddenly turn into either or a combination of the following:

- "X hero loses it all!"
- "X hero loses his/her powers!"
- "The dark(er) origin behind X hero!"
- "The representative nation of X hero gets destroyed!"
- "X hero can't remember who they are!"
- "X hero is actually evil/is really really shady now!"
- "X hero doesn't really want to be a hero anymore!"
- "X hero dies!"

All it leads to is character assassination, redundant storytelling, and dull reads.

Sometimes I ask myself: Is it impossible for a writer in this day and age to actually tell a story that explores what it means to be a hero in a world that isn't perfect?

Or as TV Tropes describes it: "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy." When it's an endless slog of suffering and misery where anything good, hopeful, or otherwise positive gets negated (almost) right away by the next run/arc/writer . . . it is definitely hard to be emotionally invested in the characters. Look at the X-Men and Spider-Man, for other examples within Marvel, even if Spider-Man is currently in the process of rebuilding the core essence of his character that was damaged, if not lost, with One More Day and the status quo that ensued from that. How many times has Tony Stark been stripped of his company/wealth and forced to the bottom, personally, socially, and economically speaking, and come back with repulsors blasting? How many times can the X-Men be kicked in the teeth by the world they've sworn to protect and mutants driven to the brink of extinction? How many times can Steve Rogers be pitted against corrupt powermongers in the U.S. government and forced to question what makes the American Dream, or if the American Dream even means anything anymore? I could go on, but I think the point stands.

[Holt]

Scholastic putting out a Shuri book.
https://www.cbr.com/marvel-scholasti...reader-novels/

Marvel and Scholastic have announced that they will join forces in a multi-year deal to create new original stories for young readers about their classic heroes.

The first new releases will be two new middle-grade novels: Shuri: A Black Panther Novel, written by Nic Stone, and Avengers Assembly, written by Preeti Chhibber. Both books are expected to have a 2020 release.

“Marvel is always looking for best-in-class partners to develop new and exciting ways to experience the Marvel Universe, and Scholastic is the perfect partner to do this. We couldn’t be more thrilled,” Marvel Director of Licensed Publishing Sven Larsen said in a statement. “As two brands dedicated to storytelling for every kind of reader and fan, the combined strength of this collaboration will be truly one of a kind – with a super power to bring together the next generation of fans through the joy of reading and Marvel.”

[Marvell2100]

Or as TV Tropes describes it: "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy." When it's an endless slog of suffering and misery where anything good, hopeful, or otherwise positive gets negated (almost) right away by the next run/arc/writer . . . it is definitely hard to be emotionally invested in the characters. Look at the X-Men and Spider-Man, for other examples within Marvel, even if Spider-Man is currently in the process of rebuilding the core essence of his character that was damaged, if not lost, with One More Day and the status quo that ensued from that. How many times has Tony Stark been stripped of his company/wealth and forced to the bottom, personally, socially, and economically speaking, and come back with repulsors blasting? How many times can the X-Men be kicked in the teeth by the world they've sworn to protect and mutants driven to the brink of extinction? How many times can Steve Rogers be pitted against corrupt powermongers in the U.S. government and forced to question what makes the American Dream, or if the American Dream even means anything anymore? I could go on, but I think the point stands.

This is one of the reasons why I stopped reading X-Men.

That and the systematic removal of prominent Black male mutants.