Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[MindofShadow]

But the women were great.

Are they though?


I'll give him Storm. And Ramonda was solid til she got blown up.


He completely messed up Shuri just to shoe horn "Mother" into the story.

I am still on the fence about Nakia.

Ayo and Aneka are MIA (hey remember when T'challa and Aneka had an off panel talk that solved their issues that was never brought up agian? lol)

Dude gets NO credit for Okoye. That was 100% editorial mandated, its just MCU Okoye, there is no explanation where she has been for 10 years... she is just mcu Okoye that appeared out of no where and is the only Dora. It completely breaks the narrative of Season 1 her magically appearing.

Zenzi has no depth whatsoever. Especially if you only look at stuff Coates has written. Her backstory came in another book.

QDJ... lol

[jwatson]

First off, if your going to try and form an argument, it would be best to actually respond using the actual words being said by folks here instead of making stuff up and then trying to respond to it. No one even said anything about him cracking more jokes or being aggressive.

Hey I get it if you want T'Challa to be more apologetic and passive and be a tight ass that cant smile at all. Whatever floats your boat..

See how ridiculous that statement sounds especially since you didn't smash any of what I just said?

As for the rest of your points. No one is out of touch with reality, in fact the one who seems to be out of touch with this thread is you, given that it's been explained and said multiple times over multiple pages what the problem was with this issue and the series as a whole yet your reaching for some "Lol lol y'all just hate women and Coates hates men because of one panel" your trying to reduce the criticism people have to and everything said to this one issue.

Sure if all that was said just by this ONE issue that would be a stretch. Good thing the last several pages has clarified this is just another issue on a long standing nearly 3 year continued trend. That what we have said about the message he is sending to young kids being a negative has been started from the very first issue in season 1. So your whole "like get a grip please" sound's extreme ignorance because you clearly didn't actually read what was said.

As for Storms talk, again, what the hell are you even talking about? Before the issue dropped we were rolling our eyes at the preview because it appeared that it was going to be the start of some Tyler Perry level cat fight BS. What we got was Storm saying T'Challa, like all men in general think they own indescretion. You know what indescretion means right? Behavior or speech that lacks good judgment. When has it ever been established that T'Challa is a man of bad judgement in his character? Not plot induced stupidity like Coates run. But in continuity character traits?

She tells Nakia (who btw, Coates had killed any sign of there being anything there by by issue 8 or something) that she ain't going to always be in Wakanda because she has other priorities elsewhere and that she will never be as good as her but she can have him when she's gone till she comes back. This is an insult to T'Challa, it shows how Coates wasted alot of issues with T'Challa pining over Storm just to relegate it all to she doesn't show the same respect to him and it shows this issue.

As for your last point.. What? The only consistent good thing about the issues which has been stated over and over again is that the art is fantastic. Like do you even read the board? And no the criticisms of this season hasn't been answered at all.

T'Challa still gets put into the background, he still hasn't said a word to N'Jadaka, they have never fought, none of the villains seem like credible threats when they get taken down by support characters. The story is still slow and boring. I could keep going but there isn't a point, your likely going to cherry pick my post anyways and then throw in some stuff o never said into the argument. But no, nothing has been answered. Alot of whats been said contradict themselves

Your a far better man than I. I can't get past the wanting to formulate a whole opinion on not the material but the posters based on a cliffsnotes understanding of the discussion.

[Marvell2100]

It all does read pretty simply. I hear what you’re saying, trust me, I do. But I’m looking at the big picture. When I take in all the notes I have, MY interpretation of everything couldn’t be anymore different. I feel I must clarify what I mean when I use the term “black love.” I mean love for all black people in every way they exist. That sounds bizarre to some, but I’m hoping not all. I believe (and this is just me) if you only love a certain type of black person, then you don’t really love black people. We come in all forms, shades and cultures. Every one of them deserves representation. Straight black men deserve representation. Gay black men deserve representation. Black Trans men deserve representation. Straight black women deserve representation. Gay black women deserve representation. Black Trans women deserve representation. I’m not saying they all need to be the upstanding citizens. Some will naturally be antagonists. We are all along the spectrum. We deserve to portrayed as HUMAN more than anything else. The minute you close yourself off to seeing black people as human is the minute you start perpetuating anti-blackness and it provokes my ire. Now to respond to points you’ve raised.

Eden is a black male mutant that isn’t receiving love in any other books, am I correct? He’s been by T’Challa’s side for how long now? He’s treated like a powerhouse which I love. Plus his and Storm’s inclusion on T’Challa’s war council speaks volumes and bust any narrative about anti mutant sentiments wide open. Agree to disagree there.

I may not be an expert, but I’m pretty sure Shuri received major MCU love and a revamp first. It was only to be expected with Nakia and M’Baku given how much those characters resonated with people. Agree to disagree there.

I admit that T’Challa could be a little brooding, but I personally like his self reflective nature. I get the impression that he sees his world in mathematical equations and that makes him awkward. I love it. I’ll agree to disagree.

You and I have two completely different ideas of what a weak man looks like and that’s fine. I got my answers a few weeks ago when I asked about Big dick energy or BDE. The tone was clear and the message was received. I’ll agree to disagree once more.

I have read the issues you’re referring to. The real takeaway for me is that while it may have appeared that T’Challa lost a lot of ground, he gained it all back and then some. I don’t consider it a loss. Shuri, Okoye, Ramonda, Storm and Nakia have all been uplifting voices that express to the reader how T’Challa is given all the credit for Wakanda’s current prosperity. How is he losing? How? I can’t for the life of me understand any of it. The quiet women’s council in Shuri’s solo credits him for the prosperity. It’s all attributed to him and the character’s around him have even said as much.

The T’Challa that I’ve witnessed up until this point is a man that uses his intellectual prowess as his armor and his weakness. He thinks too much sometimes. I love him tho. He’s not perfect, but he loves him some Ororo and she loves him right back.

TJ, just being in a book isn't characterization. Tell me anything significant that Eden has done.

As far as the weak men thing, I think you and a few other posters always make the mistake of always assuming BP fans in this thread equate strength with muscle. You gotta get that out of your head.

From day one, BP fans in this thread have wanted T'Challa written as the competent, intelligent king that he is, flaws and all. However Coates has made up isht about BP and Wakanda just to fit his story. That's just bs.

[Marvell2100]

Are they though?


I'll give him Storm. And Ramonda was solid til she got blown up.


He completely messed up Shuri just to shoe horn "Mother" into the story.

I am still on the fence about Nakia.

Ayo and Aneka are MIA (hey remember when T'challa and Aneka had an off panel talk that solved their issues that was never brought up agian? lol)

Dude gets NO credit for Okoye. That was 100% editorial mandated, its just MCU Okoye, there is no explanation where she has been for 10 years... she is just mcu Okoye that appeared out of no where and is the only Dora. It completely breaks the narrative of Season 1 her magically appearing.

Zenzi has no depth whatsoever. Especially if you only look at stuff Coates has written. Her backstory came in another book.

QDJ... lol

That's was sarcasm on my part.

[chief12d]

In hindsight Eden is one of the biggest missed opportunities of the entire run. Coates had access to a slightly younger, non-Wakandan black male hero with unique visuals, potential connections to the wider MU (from Doom to the X-Men), and interesting powers with multiversal implications. A character like that should’ve been easy to roll into the mythos as someone T’Challa comes to see as a younger brother and trusted ally.

He wasn’t a bad option to fill the space left by Zuri and W’Kabi (since Coates seems intent on keeping them dead) and he actually represents the sense of globalism that BP strives for. We should’ve seen how T’Challa helped his rural friend adapt to the Golden City, a mission to Australia and Southeast Asia, or just actual interaction. But after 40+ issues Manifold is just as much of a bland plot device as he was on the Avengers.

Yet we’re expected to believe they’ve built a genuine friendship despite the fact their conversations almost never go past T’Challa telling him to teleport somewhere. Even on the adventures they have shared together, like when they saved Shuri, the dialogue between them is dry.

[jwatson]

And I really feel I need to address this. I have never seen love and hip hop but I watch dish nation sometimes so I know of it and I really wish black people who are claiming they want to see the improvement of their own community will stop using these people as some kind of example of what black shouldn't be because we all have cousins or what not that act similar and just like most things in a lot of cases it is the product of their environment. Should we lock up all the black people seemed "ratchet" until the global opinion on black people changes to want that your narrative suggests is positive? Because by pointing these black people out trying to make a living the best they know how you are perpetuating the exact stereotype that something is wrong with them. "Even other black people don't want to be like them." And I'm tired of it. We all want more universal representation but at the end of the day I'm not going to sacrifice any piece of it to have some "postive" public image when those are some of the kindness and most gentle people I have had the pleasure of being around. All kinds of black deserve a platform and the onus isn't on them if that's all the media and networks put forth and you make it easy to do with that the difference between us and them in your own community. Check your privelidge.

[Ezyo1000]

I'm not saying any of them are necessarily better leaders than anyone else ... what I said is that Monica has more experience leading a super hero team than anyone else on the team at the time. You're trying really hard to twist what I said into a shot against him, when it really wasn't.

Point being they didn't function like they really had a single leader for the most part, and they really didn't need one. They seemed to collectively made decisions, and that for the most part worked out fine.

No Carol was making decisions as the leader until she got a chair to the face, then she kept trying to then S2 came out and then America started acting like the leader

[Ezyo1000]

TJ, just being in a book isn't characterization. Tell me anything significant that Eden has done.

As far as the weak men thing, I think you and a few other posters always make the mistake of always assuming BP fans in this thread equate strength with muscle. You gotta get that out of your head.

From day one, BP fans in this thread have wanted T'Challa written as the competent, intelligent king that he is, flaws and all. However Coates has made up isht about BP and Wakanda just to fit his story. That's just bs.

Here's the funny thing about Eden. Coates claimed T'Challa wsd taking on a protege, everyone started Wondering who that wad going to be. He throws Eden into his story, halfway through, with no build up, no discussion between T'Challa snd him and has T'Challa do a internal monologue about how he needs to tell Eden the truth of what happened during tro but magically they are supposed to be friends anf Eden is a trusted Ally despite thrm never interacting prior to the run.... That's it after that. We are supposed to believe this relationship is there based on a monologue backed by nothing.

Then in the entirety of this series, Eden has gotten practically zero development, he takes uo panels, apparently is in a relationship with Shuri, but we never actually see him do anything or are shown why he is needed. Because his powerset id redundant and so much so, that Coates had to retcon in a reason for him to be of use, ehich meant reducing T'Challas own powerset.

So we have an underdeveloped character that's been around since S1 and has relationships with the title character and supporting cast, backed by zero panels, and he isnt even apart of the mythos yet takes up space that's supposed to be for the actual mythos supporting cast... And this is supposed to be a good showing for eden? He's shown as a powerhouse?? He is an integral oart of the BP mythos??? Nah, just like Storm, he is apart of the x office, where Coates wants to be at, and he is using x Characters in BP to try to get in cozy to write x books. That's the truth

[terrancejameson]

Read Hudlin

I have. His entire run (plus their stint on the F4) is in a bin beneath my bed.

I could be reaching here a good way would have been to show a loving conversation between Storm and Tchalla about their relationship rather than Storm and Nakia putting words into the main characters mouth.

And i could be crazy but i don't know, how about once he decided to go this way he actually had Storm say one uplifting think about Tchalla rather than just calling him special.

I mean maybe i've just lived a sequestered life but i don't think i've heard anyone refer to the love of their life as special. I feel like the original draft probably said "he's such a precious man..."

And i'm sorry i'm really confused why do i as a black person only have to look at a story in terms of what it's doing for the community. When it touches me that way it does but i'm not going to be shamed into accepting some lame ass attempt at black visualization through the deconstruction of the black male through Coate's obviously bias words.

But if i were, why do i need to look around at other positive examples of black men in a story when the main character in the story is a black man. So is it okay to debase a character that has been around for years, one who has a rich history, one who has had relationships one who has been loyal, and faitful and strong and smart, to back ground men that have no substance and are doing something cute. One frame a strong black man does not make. It takes consistency and Coates is all over the place when the main females in the book are always tearing these men down just because they are men. Not even because they did anything, Hadari Yao(cause not my Storm) whole speech came down to nothing more than because he is a man and i got stuff to do.

No thank you brother.

And i just want to be clear, there is no aggression in this post. So i hope you don't read it as such.

They have been shown in a loving conversation with one another. They have expressed their feelings to each other on the page. Many of the complaints in this thread were about T'Challa pining over Ororo like a sad puppy. Many wondered where was the reciprocity. It came in this issue. It came from Storm's mouth to a woman that shared a deep level of intimacy with a man they both have deep love and understanding for.

Call me crazy, but I seem to recall many claiming that T'Challa never shows up for her not too long ago. Apparently she was shown always in Wakanda protecting his people and their nation, but some wanted to see how he was going to show up for her in major way. What's changed?

I can't say that I've met the love of my life. I haven't even hit my thirties yet, so I still have time. All I know is the person that steals my heart will definitely have some special qualities. Not sure why that's a negative thing , but okay.

I think I have to clarify more of my meaning. I don't expect you or anyone else to see things as I see them or agree with me. I would think that in order for us to come to a better understanding of one another would at least need to understand fundamental things that inform our individual logic. That seems like a given and actually cuts to the heart of debate. You have your individuality and I have mine. You don't need to feel shamed into liking anything, that's never been my intention. I ask questions to better get to the root of a disagreement I may have. Just because we disagree on a few story beats does not make you my enemy. If you got that from any of my posts then I truly apologize.

I'm also sorry that you feel you need to look at a book in terms of what it's doing for the community. That's part of the appeal for me tho. I can't lie. I don't expect you to make it your cross to bear. It's the same reason I'm currently enjoying Hickman's X-Men. The implications it holds are rich. The same holds true for me with Black Panther. I'm reading and enjoying Coates' work and I have to admit that I don't see the deconstructed black Male that you speak of. I just don't. For every instance or negative portrayal you or anyone else could point out I can contrast it with another scene of his.

I personally don't have to look at the other black males besides T'Challa in order to see a positive a positive portrayal of them and ultimately myself. T'Challa is more than black man enough for me. The others don't escape my notice tho. They inform the sense of community along with all the strong and beautiful women. Community matters to me because its what made black wall street possible and black folks have lost that in America. Most are too busy moving out of the community instead of building it up.

The main issue we disagree on is how T'Challa has been disrespected as a character. I don't see it. I don't agree with and I probably never will. He's still the man in which everything in Wakanda revolves around. I champion that. It excites me and I enjoy reading it.

[Cville]

They have been shown in a loving conversation with one another. They have expressed their feelings to each other on the page. Many of the complaints in this thread were about T'Challa pining over Ororo like a sad puppy. Many wondered where was the reciprocity. It came in this issue. It came from Storm's mouth to a woman that shared a deep level of intimacy with a man they both have deep love and understanding for.

Call me crazy, but I seem to recall many claiming that T'Challa never shows up for her not too long ago. Apparently she was shown always in Wakanda protecting his people and their nation, but some wanted to see how he was going to show up for her in major way. What's changed?



.

I believe they mean in the X franchise. Tchalla doesnt show up in X stories to help Storm unless the plot takes place in Wakanda, most recent being X-Red. Which except for her costume, might as well never have happened at this point. Based on current events.

[Mr MajestiK]

First off, if your going to try and form an argument, it would be best to actually respond using the actual words being said by folks here instead of making stuff up and then trying to respond to it. No one even said anything about him cracking more jokes or being aggressive.

Hey I get it if you want T'Challa to be more apologetic and passive and be a tight ass that cant smile at all. Whatever floats your boat..

See how ridiculous that statement sounds especially since you didn't smash any of what I just said?

As for the rest of your points. No one is out of touch with reality, in fact the one who seems to be out of touch with this thread is you, given that it's been explained and said multiple times over multiple pages what the problem was with this issue and the series as a whole yet your reaching for some "Lol lol y'all just hate women and Coates hates men because of one panel" your trying to reduce the criticism people have to and everything said to this one issue.

Sure if all that was said just by this ONE issue that would be a stretch. Good thing the last several pages has clarified this is just another issue on a long standing nearly 3 year continued trend. That what we have said about the message he is sending to young kids being a negative has been started from the very first issue in season 1. So your whole "like get a grip please" sound's extreme ignorance because you clearly didn't actually read what was said.

As for Storms talk, again, what the hell are you even talking about? Before the issue dropped we were rolling our eyes at the preview because it appeared that it was going to be the start of some Tyler Perry level cat fight BS. What we got was Storm saying T'Challa, like all men in general think they own indescretion. You know what indescretion means right? Behavior or speech that lacks good judgment. When has it ever been established that T'Challa is a man of bad judgement in his character? Not plot induced stupidity like Coates run. But in continuity character traits?

She tells Nakia (who btw, Coates had killed any sign of there being anything there by by issue 8 or something) that she ain't going to always be in Wakanda because she has other priorities elsewhere and that she will never be as good as her but she can have him when she's gone till she comes back. This is an insult to T'Challa, it shows how Coates wasted alot of issues with T'Challa pining over Storm just to relegate it all to she doesn't show the same respect to him and it shows this issue.

As for your last point.. What? The only consistent good thing about the issues which has been stated over and over again is that the art is fantastic. Like do you even read the board? And no the criticisms of this season hasn't been answered at all.

T'Challa still gets put into the background, he still hasn't said a word to N'Jadaka, they have never fought, none of the villains seem like credible threats when they get taken down by support characters. The story is still slow and boring. I could keep going but there isn't a point, your likely going to cherry pick my post anyways and then throw in some stuff o never said into the argument. But no, nothing has been answered. Alot of whats been said contradict themselves

I take my hat off to you and Jwatson for handling yourselves so well in the face of such reductive provocation.

Very well played my friends.

[Mr MajestiK]

TJ, just being in a book isn't characterization. Tell me anything significant that Eden has done.

As far as the weak men thing, I think you and a few other posters always make the mistake of always assuming BP fans in this thread equate strength with muscle. You gotta get that out of your head.

From day one, BP fans in this thread have wanted T'Challa written as the competent, intelligent king that he is, flaws and all. However Coates has made up isht about BP and Wakanda just to fit his story. That's just bs.

I couldn't have said it better my friend.

[Mr MajestiK]

And I really feel I need to address this. I have never seen love and hip hop but I watch dish nation sometimes so I know of it and I really wish black people who are claiming they want to see the improvement of their own community will stop using these people as some kind of example of what black shouldn't be because we all have cousins or what not that act similar and just like most things in a lot of cases it is the product of their environment. Should we lock up all the black people seemed "ratchet" until the global opinion on black people changes to want that your narrative suggests is positive? Because by pointing these black people out trying to make a living the best they know how you are perpetuating the exact stereotype that something is wrong with them. "Even other black people don't want to be like them." And I'm tired of it. We all want more universal representation but at the end of the day I'm not going to sacrifice any piece of it to have some "postive" public image when those are some of the kindness and most gentle people I have had the pleasure of being around. All kinds of black deserve a platform and the onus isn't on them if that's all the media and networks put forth and you make it easy to do with that the difference between us and them in your own community. Check your privelidge.

Very solid post.

I agree 100%.

[Mr MajestiK]

Here's the funny thing about Eden. Coates claimed T'Challa wsd taking on a protege, everyone started Wondering who that wad going to be. He throws Eden into his story, halfway through, with no build up, no discussion between T'Challa snd him and has T'Challa do a internal monologue about how he needs to tell Eden the truth of what happened during tro but magically they are supposed to be friends anf Eden is a trusted Ally despite thrm never interacting prior to the run.... That's it after that. We are supposed to believe this relationship is there based on a monologue backed by nothing.

Then in the entirety of this series, Eden has gotten practically zero development, he takes uo panels, apparently is in a relationship with Shuri, but we never actually see him do anything or are shown why he is needed. Because his powerset id redundant and so much so, that Coates had to retcon in a reason for him to be of use, ehich meant reducing T'Challas own powerset.

So we have an underdeveloped character that's been around since S1 and has relationships with the title character and supporting cast, backed by zero panels, and he isnt even apart of the mythos yet takes up space that's supposed to be for the actual mythos supporting cast... And this is supposed to be a good showing for eden? He's shown as a powerhouse?? He is an integral oart of the BP mythos??? Nah, just like Storm, he is apart of the x office, where Coates wants to be at, and he is using x Characters in BP to try to get in cozy to write x books. That's the truth

Preach!

[XPac]

No Carol was making decisions as the leader until she got a chair to the face, then she kept trying to then S2 came out and then America started acting like the leader

The fact that she got a chair to the face was because she wasn't really the leader. She had no actual authority... they just went along with her when they agreed with her. And when they didn't, they didn't. Certainly for the stuff centering around Ulyssess she was the point person, but on other occasions she wasn't. There was never any sort of established chain of command in the book... they just sort of all worked together as long as they were on the same page.

It is fair to say Carol was in charge to some degree during Secret Empire, but that had more to do with her position as head of Alpha Flight rather than the Ultimates.