Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Ezyo1000]

So if Wakanda in a story lost 3 straight battles in a row but won the war (as heroes always do anyways), you wouldn't think that makes them look bad? Cause again, I'd say that pretty much ANYONE who loses 3 straight times in a row isn't being written all thatstrong.

Are they the villains in the story? Have they conquered the rest of or most of the world? Who are they facing? Just because Wakanda resisted them doesn't mean Hydra looked weak. Evil Steve had conquered the US abd the redtof the world was being scared into submission. There as rebt maby places I feel would be able to match Wakanda, but lets use Atlantis scene they were warring with Wakanda in tro. If they were attacking them abd couldn't get through their defense, but conquered thebrestof the world,and the. Figured out a way to get what they needed from Atlantis and defeating the heroes but not necessarily beating Atlantis army into submission, i would still say they were pretty powerful still, because its not always about winning in a straight fist fight but outsmarting or outmaneuvering your opponent and achieving your goal is still threatening and being strong. Your trying to compare physical strength or total victory ad the only measurement of being strong.

Thanos army attacked Wakanda 3 times. They didn't seem weak for being repelled at all.

So again, my IW comparison would of been a hell of a lot more logical way of winning then what we got. Which was PIS and lazy writing because Spencer couldn't be bothered to think of a better way to have Steve win which would of not punked Wakanda and showed Steve's cunning in one swoop

[DigiCom]

Unfortunately the rest of the Wakandan army didn't have such training.

So who trained him?

To me, this boils down to what I call The Hat Theory.

Many superheroes are generalists. They have a suite of superpowers, and no strong focus on any one ability.

But other superheroes are known for one power, and one power only. Martial arts skill, superspeed, strength. And if they don't have a chance to show off that one skill, they end up looking second-rate.

It's for reasons like this that I always rank Iron Fist & Shang-Chi over heroes like Cap and BP. Because that's pretty much all they are good at.

Since Priest, T'Challa's "hat" has been his strategic abilities. His ability to plan for almost any situation.

So having a story hinging on the idea that "he was caught by surprise and didn't have a response" looks worse than it would if we were talking about Namor or Black Bolt.

Especially since EVERYONE seems to be catching him off-guard in his own book.

[Ezyo1000]

Firstly we don't know for a fact that he know it was coming since it wasn't exactly public knowledge that it was used against SHIELD. And it's not like they used it in their 2 earlier attempts at invading Wakanda.

Secondly, the book does point out that what Faustus is using is new tech, so even if T'Challa was prepared for it (and there's no actual indication that he was), there's no gurantee that being prepped against what was used before would necessarily work in this instance.

Ultimately they needed a way for Hydra to beat Wakanda in like 2 pages (would have been nice if Wakanda got it's one mini with the event but it is what it is), and mind control was a way to do it. There probably could have been other ways... they had a Cthon controlled Wanda on their side for example. But mind control gets the job done, and was used earlier in the story. So why not?

Why not? Because it's stupid that's why and it doesn't make any sense.

A better set up would of been for the heroes to Make a final stand. So what that means is the final issues, instead of having the battle take place on the us and the heroes being outmatched yet somehow not completely annihilated, they decide to make a stand in Wakanda, then have it literally go like IW. Big battle big stakes, Hydra loses after a tough battle (the army itself loses but accomplishes it's secondary goal) and Steve uses the battle tonget the fragment from the heroes tasked with guarding it. Makes it a grander scheme, makes sense as to why this would be such an important fight, and makes it so the heroes lose in a logical way thats not rout with stupidity

[XPac]

Are they the villains in the story? Have they conquered the rest of or most of the world? Who are they facing? Just because Wakanda resisted them doesn't mean Hydra looked weak. Evil Steve had conquered the US abd the redtof the world was being scared into submission. There as rebt maby places I feel would be able to match Wakanda, but lets use Atlantis scene they were warring with Wakanda in tro. If they were attacking them abd couldn't get through their defense, but conquered thebrestof the world,and the. Figured out a way to get what they needed from Atlantis and defeating the heroes but not necessarily beating Atlantis army into submission, i would still say they were pretty powerful still, because its not always about winning in a straight fist fight but outsmarting or outmaneuvering your opponent and achieving your goal is still threatening and being strong. Your trying to compare physical strength or total victory ad the only measurement of being strong.

Thanos army attacked Wakanda 3 times. They didn't seem weak for being repelled at all.

So again, my IW comparison would of been a hell of a lot more logical way of winning then what we got. Which was PIS and lazy writing because Spencer couldn't be bothered to think of a better way to have Steve win which would of not punked Wakanda and showed Steve's cunning in one swoop

The whole point of T'Challa publically punking Steve in front of the world was to make Hydra look weak. And Hydra Steve knew it too... you could see it on the expression on his face. They failed multiple times, and Hydra needed that victory to save face. Hydra did scare the rest of the world into submission... but Wakanda gave the world hope that people could stand up against them. That's exactly why Hydra needed to snuff that hope out. He needed to scare the world and the readers into seeing that if you stand up to Hydra, Hydra will knock your @$$ back down. That's exactly what happened because that's exactly what needed to happen.

And Thanos army doesn't seem weak despite being initially repelled for the same reason that Hydra doesn't seem weak despite being repelled... because they ultimately proved they could get the job done. Which is the point. Wakanda won a few rounds, but so did THanos Army and Hydra. THus no one looks bad because everyone has shown they don't actually suck.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that losing 3 time in a row doesn't make them look weak. If you want Hydra (or any villain for that matter) to be feared, have them actually win. Simple as that. It almost never hurts the good gusy since they pretty much always win in the end anyways.

[XPac]

Why not? Because it's stupid that's why and it doesn't make any sense.

A better set up would of been for the heroes to Make a final stand. So what that means is the final issues, instead of having the battle take place on the us and the heroes being outmatched yet somehow not completely annihilated, they decide to make a stand in Wakanda, then have it literally go like IW. Big battle big stakes, Hydra loses after a tough battle (the army itself loses but accomplishes it's secondary goal) and Steve uses the battle tonget the fragment from the heroes tasked with guarding it. Makes it a grander scheme, makes sense as to why this would be such an important fight, and makes it so the heroes lose in a logical way thats not rout with stupidity

They didn't have the final battle in Wakanda for the same reason they didn't have the final battle in Attilan or Latvernia or Atlantis or whatever the X nation was called... because this wasn't a BP story or an Inhuman Story or a Namor story. Wakanda was just a side thing. I get you wish it played this big important role where it's this unbeatable place Hydra can't overcome, but really it was just inserted into the story purely so Hydra could take a cube fragment from them. As this was a Captain Ameica story rather than a Black Panther story (or an X-Men story or an Inhuman story, etc), the final battle ground not shocking was America.

[Marvell2100]

So who trained him?

To me, this boils down to what I call The Hat Theory.

Many superheroes are generalists. They have a suite of superpowers, and no strong focus on any one ability.

But other superheroes are known for one power, and one power only. Martial arts skill, superspeed, strength. And if they don't have a chance to show off that one skill, they end up looking second-rate.

It's for reasons like this that I always rank Iron Fist & Shang-Chi over heroes like Cap and BP. Because that's pretty much all they are good at.

Since Priest, T'Challa's "hat" has been his strategic abilities. His ability to plan for almost any situation.

So having a story hinging on the idea that "he was caught by surprise and didn't have a response" looks worse than it would if we were talking about Namor or Black Bolt.

Especially since EVERYONE seems to be catching him off-guard in his own book.

Pretty steep drop from "Most dangerous man alive" to "Most caught off-guard man alive".

But I guess you can't help it if a writer is going to make a strategic, super-genius incompetent in order to make his story work.

Or a strong king look like an idiot.

[XPac]

So who trained him?

To me, this boils down to what I call The Hat Theory.

Many superheroes are generalists. They have a suite of superpowers, and no strong focus on any one ability.

But other superheroes are known for one power, and one power only. Martial arts skill, superspeed, strength. And if they don't have a chance to show off that one skill, they end up looking second-rate.

It's for reasons like this that I always rank Iron Fist & Shang-Chi over heroes like Cap and BP. Because that's pretty much all they are good at.

Since Priest, T'Challa's "hat" has been his strategic abilities. His ability to plan for almost any situation.

So having a story hinging on the idea that "he was caught by surprise and didn't have a response" looks worse than it would if we were talking about Namor or Black Bolt.

Especially since EVERYONE seems to be catching him off-guard in his own book.

If you have the expectation that T'Challa will never be caught off guaurd, then you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment. Hes very very smart, but no one is smart enough to literally be prepared for anything that comes at him. Good guys have to take L's sometimes... that's just how it has to work. But in the least, they did try and give Wakanda it's props... they won 2 out of 3. So it's not like Spencer buried them.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Doing it with Wakanda makes it potentially harder, but not necessarily impossible.

And honestly they probably were taken by surprise, not by the attack by rather the change in tactics Hydra employed. The first 2 invasions were straight up military invasions. In round 3 they hit Wakanda with something entirely different.

Ya know, never mind the fact that T'Challa and his people wouldn't learn from the first time. Never mind that the basic internal logic simply doesn't work, in a world where Faustus is not the only person who can control people with his voice.

It's the exact same trick, played twice in the same story.

That makes it poor writing.

Period.

Of which, Secret Empire was awash in, frankly.

[XPac]

Ya know, never mind the fact that T'Challa and his people wouldn't learn from the first time. Never mind that the basic internal logic simply doesn't work, in a world where Faustus is not the only person who can control people with his voice.

It's the exact same trick, played twice in the same story.

That makes it poor writing.

Period.

Of which, Secret Empire was awash in, frankly.

I think the fact that it happened twice actually makes it more believable. If we didn't see him do it earlier in the story, it would feel more like it came out of nowhere.

[Ezyo1000]

They didn't have the final battle in Wakanda for the same reason they didn't have the final battle in Attilan or Latvernia or Atlantis or whatever the X nation was called... because this wasn't a BP story or an Inhuman Story or a Namor story. Wakanda was just a side thing. I get you wish it played this big important role where it's this unbeatable place Hydra can't overcome, but really it was just inserted into the story purely so Hydra could take a cube fragment from them. As this was a Captain Ameica story rather than a Black Panther story (or an X-Men story or an Inhuman story, etc), the final battle ground not shocking was America.

Your clearly Missing the point.. the whole reason I say it could of went that way is because it was the one place that openly challenged them. Atlantis got annihilated, I don't remember if attilan was mentioned. Doom was doing doom stuff, and x nation was in hiding. It's about setting the stakes in a manner that makes sense. If it's so easy for the villain to win just like that on PIS then why even have Wakanda challenge them? It's stupid and doesn't do anything at all.

And on top of that it just makes Hydra look stupid because then apparently they conquered the world and the most technologically advanced nation.. but lost to a handful of heroes in the end? If Wakanda was never mentioned then I wouldn't care. But the way Spencer went about bringing Wakanda in only served to throw shade on it the way I mention makes a ton of sense. They failed 3 time to conquer Wakanda. They know they can't beat them in a straight up fight. That's been established. So they use their force at a diversion to get the cube so Steve can alter reality. That's how a good story teller would tell the story. Otherwise why didn't Faust just mindcontrol Wakanda for the start?

[Ezyo1000]

If you have the expectation that T'Challa will never be caught off guaurd, then you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment. Hes very very smart, but no one is smart enough to literally be prepared for anything that comes at him. Good guys have to take L's sometimes... that's just how it has to work. But in the least, they did try and give Wakanda it's props... they won 2 out of 3. So it's not like Spencer buried them.

I swear you read like every other word people post then make a counter argument off things people didn't say. No where did BoG state that he is never caught off guard and he is prepared for anything. He almost every situation. Guess what? Mindcontrol in the 616 universe its pretty common, abd he would ESPECIALLY have counter measures for it because of ya know, words apart where Wakanda and T'Challa were controlled by Shadow king. This wasn't some off the wall new never before seen ability that no one could plan for like say, Thanes power of living death. This is mindcontrol. Standard been there done that isht. So again lazy and bad writing is lazy and bad writing period

[XPac]

Your clearly Missing the point.. the whole reason I say it could of went that way is because it was the one place that openly challenged them. Atlantis got annihilated, I don't remember if attilan was mentioned. Doom was doing doom stuff, and x nation was in hiding. It's about setting the stakes in a manner that makes sense. If it's so easy for the villain to win just like that on PIS then why even have Wakanda challenge them? It's stupid and doesn't do anything at all.

And on top of that it just makes Hydra look stupid because then apparently they conquered the world and the most technologically advanced nation.. but lost to a handful of heroes in the end? If Wakanda was never mentioned then I wouldn't care. But the way Spencer went about bringing Wakanda in only served to throw shade on it the way I mention makes a ton of sense. They failed 3 time to conquer Wakanda. They know they can't beat them in a straight up fight. That's been established. So they use their force at a diversion to get the cube so Steve can alter reality. That's how a good story teller would tell the story. Otherwise why didn't Faust just mindcontrol Wakanda for the start?

The fact that it was the one place that openly challenged him is exactly why Hydra had to beat them.

It's NOT easy to for the villains to beat Wakanda... Hydra failed twice. And that built up Wakanda in the story, to the point where when Hydra eventually defeats Wakanda it becomes a win that matters.

As far as Hydra losing to a handful of heroes... it's a super hero comic. Bad guys pretty much always lose to a handful of heroes.

[XPac]

I swear you read like every other word people post then make a counter argument off things people didn't say. No where did BoG state that he is never caught off guard and he is prepared for anything. He almost every situation. Guess what? Mindcontrol in the 616 universe its pretty common, abd he would ESPECIALLY have counter measures for it because of ya know, words apart where Wakanda and T'Challa were controlled by Shadow king. This wasn't some off the wall new never before seen ability that no one could plan for like say, Thanes power of living death. This is mindcontrol. Standard been there done that isht. So again lazy and bad writing is lazy and bad writing period

Yes, based on Worlds Apart he should have counter measures to someone telepathically controlling his mind. And he in fact DID develop protection from telepathy in Coates run.

One problem... Faustus mind control isn't based on telepathy. It's based on his voice. Not all mind control works exactly the same... a counter measure to the Shadown King won't protect you from Faustus or Purple Man or the Corruptor or Empath or the Puppet Master. Their powers all achieve the same effect, but the way that is achieved is actually quite different. Not all mind control is the same. It's not quite as standard as you think.

[Mr MajestiK]

Faustus mentions he's using new method, so its possible whatever precautions they may have had might not work.

Was this supposedly "new method" clearly portrayed in the story?

[Mr MajestiK]

So who trained him?

To me, this boils down to what I call The Hat Theory.

Many superheroes are generalists. They have a suite of superpowers, and no strong focus on any one ability.

But other superheroes are known for one power, and one power only. Martial arts skill, superspeed, strength. And if they don't have a chance to show off that one skill, they end up looking second-rate.

It's for reasons like this that I always rank Iron Fist & Shang-Chi over heroes like Cap and BP. Because that's pretty much all they are good at.

Since Priest, T'Challa's "hat" has been his strategic abilities. His ability to plan for almost any situation.

So having a story hinging on the idea that "he was caught by surprise and didn't have a response" looks worse than it would if we were talking about Namor or Black Bolt.

Especially since EVERYONE seems to be catching him off-guard in his own book.

Quoted for truth.