Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Ezyo1000]

The fact that it was the one place that openly challenged him is exactly why Hydra had to beat them.

It's NOT easy to for the villains to beat Wakanda... Hydra failed twice. And that built up Wakanda in the story, to the point where when Hydra eventually defeats Wakanda it becomes a win that matters.

As far as Hydra losing to a handful of heroes... it's a super hero comic. Bad guys pretty much always lose to a handful of heroes.

I guess we have different opinions about good and poor writing. If I was telling a story, I wouldn't have a powerful enemy challenge the main antagonist and then beat them easily and just say oh they were just a side thing to push the story along because you know its lazy writing. And if they were just a side thing why did Spencer put so much emphasis on Wakanda. Why have T'Challa call him out in the Cap book, have the avengers go to Wakanda and have a whole issue with T'Challa telling them that was the safest place for the fragment, just to have Wakanda taken down on a couple panels? That's alot of effort just to make them lose in such a simplistic manner. It's lazy. You know why in IW the avengers went to Wakanda? Because it was their best chance to make a final stand and protect vision. Wakanda is the place that openly challenged and successfully repelled Steve and no one thought it would be good to make a stand there? Come on.

Yes, based on Worlds Apart he should have counter measures to someone telepathically controlling his mind. And he in fact DID develop protection from telepathy in Coates run.

One problem... Faustus mind control isn't based on telepathy. It's based on his voice. Not all mind control works exactly the same... a counter measure to the Shadown King won't protect you from Faustus or Purple Man or the Corruptor or Empath or the Puppet Master. Their powers all achieve the same effect, but the way that is achieved is actually quite different. Not all mind control is the same. It's not quite as standard as you think.

Huh, power through his voice... I wonder how you counter something like that... Hmm...

[XPac]

I guess we have different opinions about good and poor writing. If I was telling a story, I wouldn't have a powerful enemy challenge the main antagonist and then beat them easily and just say oh they were just a side thing to push the story along because you know its lazy writing. And if they were just a side thing why did Spencer put so much emphasis on Wakanda. Why have T'Challa call him out in the Cap book, have the avengers go to Wakanda and have a whole issue with T'Challa telling them that was the safest place for the fragment, just to have Wakanda taken down on a couple panels? That's alot of effort just to make them lose in such a simplistic manner. It's lazy. You know why in IW the avengers went to Wakanda? Because it was their best chance to make a final stand and protect vision. Wakanda is the place that openly challenged and successfully repelled Steve and no one thought it would be good to make a stand there? Come on.



Huh, power through his voice... I wonder how you counter something like that... Hmm...

Every place which had a cube fragment was given some emphasis... but ultimately they were all placed in the story just so Hydra could take the cube fragment from them. They were obstacles for Hydra to overcome to build them up. The X books at least had their Secret Empire books.... Wakanda just took up panel time in other books. I wish BP got it's own mini, but that's another matter.

And this was a different sort of story than Infinity War, which is why hiding in Wakanda wasn't necessarily ideal. Black Panther and Wakanda weren't actively fighting the Secret Empire and helping the people the people who they conquered... they were purely concerned with defense. Protecting Wakanda and the cube fragment. And that's a very valid stance to hance... but obviously the other heroes were going to be in the US fighting Hydra and trying to help the people there. The priorities were different. In Infinity War, they just had to wait for Thanos to come to them, but in Secret Empire they needed to be more proactive because the threat was already there. I gurantee you if Thanos and his army was in the United States conquering it in Infinity War like Hydra was in Secret Empire, the Avengers wouldn't be hanging out in Wakanda long term (they obviously would have to get the gem removed from Vision there). They would be in the US figthing THanos as soon as they could. Same deal here. Avengers has to be in the US because that's where the Secret Empire was and that's where they were needed. For that particular story, it wasn't enough to just hide somewhere safe.

[DigiCom]

Huh, power through his voice... I wonder how you counter something like that... Hmm...

[XPac]

And if they knew ahead of time that Faustus would be a factor in the battle, thats certainly an option assuming they have enough of those ear plugs for the entire Wakandan army. But being completely unable to hear puts their army at a distinct disadvantage against hydra. T'Challa not being able to actually command his forces and direct what they do or where they do makes their job a lot tougher.

But yes, there's ultimately a counter measure for anything... and there are counter measures to counter measures. It's a matter of being able to know ahead of time what you're dealing with so you can properly respond. As cool as it might be to believe that T'Challa is ready for anything, in practice things don't always work that way. I don't think the same trick would work against Wakanda twice.. but the first time around isn't necessarily a given.

As this is a comic book we can of course come up with hypothetical scenarios where Wakanda can come up with counter measures to Hydra and hypothetical scenarious where Hydra can come up with counter measures to Wakanda. But ultimately the point of the story was for Hydra to suceed and Wakanda to fail. Obviously Hydra loses in the end, but they had to get the win at this point for the story to progress.

[DigiCom]

The name change went through... Beware Of Geek is dead, long live DigiCom!

[DigiCom]

And if they knew ahead of time that Faustus would be a factor in the battle, thats certainly an option assuming they have enough of those ear plugs for the entire Wakandan army. But being completely unable to hear puts their army at a distinct disadvantage against hydra. T'Challa not being able to actually command his forces and direct what they do or where they do makes their job a lot tougher.

I'm guessing you've never had to lead a team. The trick isn't to micromanage every action... it's to make sure that your troops know what to do, and trust them to do it.

Also, texting is a thing.

As this is a comic book we can of course come up with hypothetical scenarios where Wakanda can come up with counter measures to Hydra and hypothetical scenarious where Hydra can come up with counter measures to Wakanda. But ultimately the point of the story was for Hydra to suceed and Wakanda to fail. Obviously Hydra loses in the end, but they had to get the win at this point for the story to progress.

Which, IMO, is the very definition of Plot Induced Stupidity. The story happened that way because it HAS to happen that way. Particularly since, in another part of the SAME CROSSOVER, the forces of American Idea Mechanics had training to defeat mind control. Not the heroes... the rank & file.

From one of my earlier posts:

Defending against telepathy doesn't actually REQUIRE tech. In fact, it's apparently a standard part of the curriculum at the X-School (whatever it's called these days).

If Sunspot can mount a reasonable psychic defense, T'Challa, who has one of the strongest wills in the Marvel U., should be able to do it without recourse to science, his ancestral lineage, or divine intervention:

[XPac]

I'm guessing you've never had to lead a team. The trick isn't to micromanage every action... it's to make sure that your troops know what to do, and trust them to do it.

Also, texting is a thing.



Which, IMO, is the very definition of Plot Induced Stupidity. The story happened that way because it HAS to happen that way. Particularly since, in another part of the SAME CROSSOVER, the forces of American Idea Mechanics had training to defeat mind control. Not the heroes... the rank & file.

From one of my earlier posts:

I've certainly never led a military operation no... but I do suspect there is a good deal of communication involved as far as directing the troops. I won't say being unable to hear makes it impossible... but it's a legitimate handicap.

And yes, there is defense for telepahy and mind control in general ... it's why characters like Black Panther and Sharon were uneffected. But the red shirts went down like a sack of bricks, like they always do. That's the red shirts job... to fall to the actual characters in the story.

[DigiCom]

I've certainly never led a military operation no... but I do suspect there is a good deal of communication involved as far as directing the troops. I won't say being unable to hear makes it impossible... but it's a legitimate handicap.

And yes, there is defense for telepahy and mind control in general ... it's why characters like Black Panther and Sharon were uneffected. But the red shirts went down like a sack of bricks, like they always do. That's the red shirts job... to fall to the actual characters in the story.

Didn't read what I posted, did you? In the case I'm talking about, EVERYONE had that protection. Sunspot had managed to instill a basic telepathic defense as part of the standard AIM training. In fact, the only reason he was defeated in that issue is a sleeper agent had managed to trick (the second) Red Hulk into accepting an implant that let them take over his body, not because HYDRA's mind control was so über.

CORRECTION: Because one of his AIM agents (named Larry) thought that Sunspot had joined the "establishment" and betrayed him.

[Ezyo1000]

I'm guessing you've never had to lead a team. The trick isn't to micromanage every action... it's to make sure that your troops know what to do, and trust them to do it.

Also, texting is a thing.



Which, IMO, is the very definition of Plot Induced Stupidity. The story happened that way because it HAS to happen that way. Particularly since, in another part of the SAME CROSSOVER, the forces of American Idea Mechanics had training to defeat mind control. Not the heroes... the rank & file.

From one of my earlier posts:

I mean you would think the most technologically advanced nation would have basic counter measures for communication based attacks ya know? If there were any interference (another basic military strategy, cut off the enemies communication) and something like control through verbal suggestion.

It's just really a cop out that as a reader you don't know how Faustus even pulls it off. No mention how he did it, via hacked their communication whatever
Just poof they are under my control just like that. Plus them sneaking into his command center? It begs the question why did it take them 3 tries when it was literally that easy for them to get in? Hence back to an IW style encounter

[Marvell2100]

The name change went through... Beware Of Geek is dead, long live DigiCom!

I'm happy yet sad.

[XPac]

Didn't read what I posted, did you? In the case I'm talking about, EVERYONE had that protection. Sunspot had managed to instill a basic telepathic defense as part of the standard AIM training. In fact, the only reason he was defeated in that issue is a sleeper agent had managed to trick (the second) Red Hulk into accepting an implant that let them take over his body, not because HYDRA's mind control was so über.

CORRECTION: Because one of his AIM agents (named Larry) thought that Sunspot had joined the "establishment" and betrayed him.

Sure. SHIELD has training to resist mind control too. That said, my point stands .... when red shits face off against a mind controller (or any REALY character) red shirts pretty much always go down like a sack of bricks. Because again, that's pretty much what red shirts are there for. If there's one of two occasions where the red shirts are able to fight it off, they're the exceptions more than they are the rule.

If hypothetically Spencer wanted Wakandans to have such training, he certainly could have established that they could resist that too. It wasn't established in the past (to my recollection at least) that Wakandans have such training, so it would be up to Spencer to decide whether they do or not and whether that training would be enough to resist Faustus. But obviously Hydra was suppossed to win and Wakandans were supposed to lose, so in this instance at least the outcome wasn't going to go in Wakandas favor either way.

[Marvell2100]

Didn't read what I posted, did you? In the case I'm talking about, EVERYONE had that protection. Sunspot had managed to instill a basic telepathic defense as part of the standard AIM training. In fact, the only reason he was defeated in that issue is a sleeper agent had managed to trick (the second) Red Hulk into accepting an implant that let them take over his body, not because HYDRA's mind control was so über.

CORRECTION: Because one of his AIM agents (named Larry) thought that Sunspot had joined the "establishment" and betrayed him.

You'd think that the most advanced nation on Earth with one of the most strategic people on the planet as it's king would have telepathic protections as standard operating procedures. Not only for himself for certain but for any Wakandan in a political, military or scientific position. Wakandan secrets would have to be protected from any kind of mind control or telepathy. That should be the most obvious tactic to prepare for.

But as you said, pis is a necessity in order to advance a plot idea filled with so many holes. Instead of coming up creative solutions, writers would rather be lazy and just handwave a lot of things.

[MouserGrey]

Even ear buds interrupt outside noise to some extent. And those little foam or rubber ear plugs can really make it hard to hear. Some military grade headphones, like tank crews or plane and pilots use are not even sci fi and would do the trick of blocking a voice while still allowing communication.

[XPac]

You'd think that the most advanced nation on Earth with one of the most strategic people on the planet as it's king would have telepathic protections as standard operating procedures. Not only for himself for certain but for any Wakandan in a political, military or scientific position. Wakandan secrets would have to be protected from any kind of mind control or telepathy. That should be the most obvious tactic to prepare for.

But as you said, pis is a necessity in order to advance a plot idea filled with so many holes. Instead of coming up creative solutions, writers would rather be lazy and just handwave a lot of things.

It's been mentioned often enough that SHIELD agents had training in resisting telepathy and mind control. But they still feel to Faustus. Again, that's sort of the role of red shirts. Against an actual villain, they drop like a sack of bricks.

It's never been mentioned, but even if Wakandan soldiers did have such training it doesn't necessarily equate to immunity, as we see with SHIELD agents. If a writer decides the mind control can overcome the red shirts training, then it can. But because no such training was ever mentioned or shown, Spencer didn't even need to go that far.

[XPac]

Even ear buds interrupt outside noise to some extent. And those little foam or rubber ear plugs can really make it hard to hear. Some military grade headphones, like tank crews or plane and pilots use are not even sci fi and would do the trick of blocking a voice while still allowing communication.

Really, the safest thing would be to not have communication at all, because Hydra against SHIELD was able to compromise their communication. Granted it was easy to do since they had Steve working on the inside... but hypothetically speaking at least if T'Challa new in advance this was a potential threat, I don't think he'd even want to risk that. Given what we saw of Faustus, if he can even get a few people on the inside to compromise Wakandan security the whole thing potentially can go down very very quickly.

COurse that's just playing arm chair quarterback. Hard to know exactly how much T'Challa new or what options he even really had at the time.