Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Ezyo1000]

the USA is not a model for Wakanda, nor is Europe. Those places are insanely diverse and have centuries of intermixing and trading with their neighbors. they also have histories of expansion, conquest and colonization,. None of that has anything to do with Wakanda which is, literally, the opposite of those things.

you want to look at a place like Finland or Iceland for crime rates. homogeneous ethnic population, little to no real contact with outsiders. and, again, as others have pointed out, Wakanda is NOT Africa. Wakanda predates the concept of Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda. They cut themselves off from Africa and have lived apart for 10k years. there's no human trafficking there. who are they trafficking to when the greatest crime would be revealing the place even exists? how would they even begin to make those networks? who are they getting the coke from? how do they know it even exists if there's no influx of foreigners into the main populace? there's no crack epidemic. that makes zero sense.

those are AMERICAN issues. those are issues across modern Africa, sure, but Wakanda isn't modern Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda.

also, this bizarre need to inject "realism" into stories about people who have intergalactic empires and talk to gods on the spirit plane is, well, bizarre.

super-hero comic books aren't meant to carry the weight of all that realism. they're meant to ping our morality, our aspirations, our sense of right and wrong. they are not meant to be docudramas about how awful things are in the real world. they're meant to send us into the real world hoping to help make it better.

super-hero comics that DON'T do that (unless the whole point is to show a darker riff on the subject a la WATCHMEN or POWERS) are failures, IMO.

This post right here. Wakanda should have unique issues because its a unique place. Instead it not only gets turned into stereotypical Africa, but then Coates takes iy a steo further by then having Wakanda turn into European and American analogies throughout their history.

We should be seeing things like thebrest of the world wondering how to deal with Wakanda, challenges both domestic abd interactional, earth based abd intergalactic. How do the skrulls feel about Wakanda kicking their asses? How do thenkree view Wakanda (theybsee earth itself as primitive but Wakanda would pique their interest)

Other gods wanting the worship of Wakandans this powerful warrior nation unconquered and advanced beyond other human society.

So much to mine and we get the same basic garbage for the sake of"realism"

It was a tricky balancing act because you wanted to give them reason to revolt without flat out turning them into villains.

Killing rapists works because its still murder and still wrong, BUT you can still sympathize and maybe even root for them a little. Its not impoosible to look at people murdering rapists as murderous criminals and heroes at the same time.

Kinda hard to root for the MA when I. The mini that explains what happened, they not only didn't report the crimes and took it upon themselves, they failed to even capture the one in question, murdering the guy instead (which since this was an epidemic apparently whole treehouses and such, taking the guy alive would of been critical in finding the operations) then acting like they were superior when aneka was arrested sbd like the government did something wrong when in fact they didn't do their jobs and they are also apart of said government.

[XPac]

This post right here. Wakanda should have unique issues because its a unique place. Instead it not only gets turned into stereotypical Africa, but then Coates takes iy a steo further by then having Wakanda turn into European and American analogies throughout their history.

We should be seeing things like thebrest of the world wondering how to deal with Wakanda, challenges both domestic abd interactional, earth based abd intergalactic. How do the skrulls feel about Wakanda kicking their asses? How do thenkree view Wakanda (theybsee earth itself as primitive but Wakanda would pique their interest)

Other gods wanting the worship of Wakandans this powerful warrior nation unconquered and advanced beyond other human society.

So much to mine and we get the same basic garbage for the sake of"realism"




Kinda hard to root for the MA when I. The mini that explains what happened, they not only didn't report the crimes and took it upon themselves, they failed to even capture the one in question, murdering the guy instead (which since this was an epidemic apparently whole treehouses and such, taking the guy alive would of been critical in finding the operations) then acting like they were superior when aneka was arrested sbd like the government did something wrong when in fact they didn't do their jobs and they are also apart of said government.

It's pretty easy for a Wakandan woman to root for the MA killing the Chieftan over keeping him alive for questioning if the MA are able to kill the tree house house too without keeping that guy alive.

They have a similar appeal to say the Punisher ... they don't do things legally, but they it done. And they get it done permanently. Doesn't necessarily make it right ... but if you live in the MU, there's a lot to appreciate about it.

[Marvell2100]

the USA is not a model for Wakanda, nor is Europe. Those places are insanely diverse and have centuries of intermixing and trading with their neighbors. they also have histories of expansion, conquest and colonization,. None of that has anything to do with Wakanda which is, literally, the opposite of those things.

you want to look at a place like Finland or Iceland for crime rates. homogeneous ethnic population, little to no real contact with outsiders. and, again, as others have pointed out, Wakanda is NOT Africa. Wakanda predates the concept of Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda. They cut themselves off from Africa and have lived apart for 10k years. there's no human trafficking there. who are they trafficking to when the greatest crime would be revealing the place even exists? how would they even begin to make those networks? who are they getting the coke from? how do they know it even exists if there's no influx of foreigners into the main populace? there's no crack epidemic. that makes zero sense.

those are AMERICAN issues. those are issues across modern Africa, sure, but Wakanda isn't modern Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda.

also, this bizarre need to inject "realism" into stories about people who have intergalactic empires and talk to gods on the spirit plane is, well, bizarre.

super-hero comic books aren't meant to carry the weight of all that realism. they're meant to ping our morality, our aspirations, our sense of right and wrong. they are not meant to be docudramas about how awful things are in the real world. they're meant to send us into the real world hoping to help make it better.

super-hero comics that DON'T do that (unless the whole point is to show a darker riff on the subject a la WATCHMEN or POWERS) are failures, IMO.

That's the thing right there. People are using western civilizations as a barometer of how Wakanda should be. That's the fatal flaw of Coates Wakanda. He compares Wakanda to the west and see it coming up short. He takes everything bad about humankind and just assumes it should apply to Wakanda as well.

[DigiCom]

It's pretty easy for a Wakandan woman to root for the MA killing the Chieftan over keeping him alive for questioning if the MA are able to kill the tree house house too without keeping that guy alive.

They have a similar appeal to say the Punisher ... they don't do things legally, but they it done. And they get it done permanently. Doesn't necessarily make it right ... but if you live in the MU, there's a lot to appreciate about it.

We aren't talking how it appears in the MU, tho. We're talking about how it looks to the READERS.

And if I believe your thesis, the readers are meant to root for the secondary villains of the series, instead of the TITLE CHARACTER.

"Gosh! The Midnight Angels are so badass! Not like that whiny Panther guy, who is just a misogynist loser who let all this happen!"

Feh.

[Ezyo1000]

It's pretty easy for a Wakandan woman to root for the MA killing the Chieftan over keeping him alive for questioning if the MA are able to kill the tree house house too without keeping that guy alive.

They have a similar appeal to say the Punisher ... they don't do things legally, but they it done. And they get it done permanently. Doesn't necessarily make it right ... but if you live in the MU, there's a lot to appreciate about it.

Yeah... Until they Wakandan women aren't rooting for them anymore because their dead, you know, when they freed the people then left them and they got attacked again and. Would they still be rooting for them when they learned the MA sided with known terrorists who who responsible for the all the death happening in Wakanda? Or how the MA murdered the jabari tribe, they ran tail tucked between their legs when their old allies were attacking again.

The MA are the punisher because they were apart of the government and the whole thing started when they didn't do their job, yet they end to blame the consequences of their actions on the government.. plus Wakanda isn't the rest of the world. As in T'Challa the king can and will get things done permanently. Unlike other heroes T'Challa doesn't just send people to jail for them to break out two weeks later.

Plus this doesn't matter because the Wakandan women aren't real.. But the readers are

[XPac]

Yeah... Until they Wakandan women aren't rooting for them anymore because their dead, you know, when they freed the people then left them and they got attacked again and. Would they still be rooting for them when they learned the MA sided with known terrorists who who responsible for the all the death happening in Wakanda? Or how the MA murdered the jabari tribe, they ran tail tucked between their legs when their old allies were attacking again.

The MA are the punisher because they were apart of the government and the whole thing started when they didn't do their job, yet they end to blame the consequences of their actions on the government.. plus Wakanda isn't the rest of the world. As in T'Challa the king can and will get things done permanently. Unlike other heroes T'Challa doesn't just send people to jail for them to break out two weeks later

I'm pretty sure the women rooting for the MA are the ones who ended up living in the Jabari land, so they likely were cool with that. Honestly I don't think anyone minded that apart from the Jabari.

As far as Tchalla getting things done permanently... Klaw, Man Ape, Killmomger ....etc. Punisher being a rare exception, super heroes don't deal with their problems permanently. It's the nature of the genre. Heck, one of the MA was sent to jail only to break out 2 weeks later. That's how things usually work.

[DigiCom]

As far as Tchalla getting things done permanently... Klaw, Man Ape, Killmomger ....etc.

Every single one of those villains was killed off at some point (it's not T'Challa's fault Marvel editorial is lazy). Indeed, the only villain I can think of who actually spent an extended amount of time incarcerated was Venomm, and HE had a face turn eventually.

[Ezyo1000]

I'm pretty sure the women rooting for the MA are the ones who ended up living in the Jabari land, so they likely were cool with that. Honestly I don't think anyone minded that apart from the Jabari.

As far as Tchalla getting things done permanently... Klaw, Man Ape, Killmomger ....etc. Punisher being a rare exception, super heroes don't deal with their problems permanently. It's the nature of the genre. Heck, one of the MA was sent to jail only to break out 2 weeks later. That's how things usually work.

klaw, and Erik have been killed by T'Challa multiple times. Mbaku has been killed too. Really Priest was the only one who didn't kill mbaku. And I doubt they would be cool with what they did considering they were responsible for their predicament in the first place. Abd the jabari are Wakandans and Coates even said "legions" died fighting the MA so I'm pretty sure they would mind considering their dead..

And aneka was going to be executed. So it's not the same as other superheros. T'Challas rogues more often then not don't survive the encounter. And they broke out... Kinda like villains do... Hmm

This all comes down to again, western influence affecting an African nation and bringing all of that isht to a place where it doesn't belong, infecting said place with this disease. Wakanda is not the place to tell these stories. By design, and continuity. Yet Coates salivated at the thought of turning Black excellence into Black dysfunction and shackling the mythos with junk because this what he is comfortable with.

[XPac]

klaw, and Erik have been killed by T'Challa multiple times. Mbaku has been killed too. Really Priest was the only one who didn't kill mbaku. And I doubt they would be cool with what they did considering they were responsible for their predicament in the first place. Abd the jabari are Wakandans and Coates even said "legions" died fighting the MA so I'm pretty sure they would mind considering their dead..

And aneka was going to be executed. So it's not the same as other superheros. T'Challas rogues more often then not don't survive the encounter. And they broke out... Kinda like villains do... Hmm

This all comes down to again, western influence affecting an African nation and bringing all of that isht to a place where it doesn't belong, infecting said place with this disease. Wakanda is not the place to tell these stories. By design, and continuity. Yet Coates salivated at the thought of turning Black excellence into Black dysfunction and shackling the mythos with junk because this what he is comfortable with.

Man Ape and Killmonger were killed by other people. In both Priest and Hudlins run Man Ape just sort of chilled in the Jabari land . Heck in Hudlins run, he wasnt killed by Tchala. He was invited to his wedding. Tchalla is no Peter Parker, but hes also no Punisher. Hes perfectly fine letting his enemies live, which is fine because thats how the genre for the most part needs to works.

Its not even just the comics. Civil War, he spared Zemo. In Black Panther he spared Klaw. He did mortally wound Killmonger but actually was willing to save him until Erik refused. Even at the end of Panthers Quest, we see a similar thing happen. Again, thats just how the genre works.

But it also potentially plays in the favor of people like the MA or Punisher under the right circumstances because they so things other characters don't.

[Redjack]

Crime and human trafficing can and has occured in Iceland and Finland too. Their rates are low, but it exists. You get crime of various shapes and sizes anywhere and anytime. I don't think these qualifyas American or african issues ... I think theyre pretty much constants to one degree or another across the board.

There is no nation in human history that matches Wakanda. There is no society that can be compared. It's unique. But, in terms of the sorts of crime and social ills you're talking about, there's simply no way they exist in Wakanda. it's a utopia. that's how it was created and how it should exist. it is not an analogy for the ills of africa or there's no reason for it to exist. It could just be Kenya. Wakanda is not Kenya.

As far as interjecting realism into stories ... marvel being the world outside our window is practically a company slogan.

that's not what it means.

[WAKANDA FOREVER!]

Haters gonna...
https://www.cbr.com/terry-gilliam-hates-black-panther/

[XPac]

There is no nation in human history that matches Wakanda. There is no society that can be compared. It's unique. But, in terms of the sorts of crime and social ills you're talking about, there's simply no way this exist in Wakanda. it's a utopia. that's how it was created and how it should exist. it is not an analogy for the ills of africa or there's no reason for it to exist. It could just be Kenya. Wakanda is not Kenya.



that's not what it means.

Because Wakanda is fictional, it's as Utopian as the writers decide to make it. If the writers tell me that crime doesn't exist there then it doesn't... but the reverse is also true.

I believe human trafficking can exist in Wakanda for the same reason I believe an Egyptian God empowers a guy in a cat suit to be her champion ... because the books tell me so.

If the next guy retcons it, fine ... point being marvel gets to decide this stuff. I can like or dislike it, but its obviously still marvels call.

[Huntsman Spider]

That's a cop-out. Europe is a real place too, but when was the last time Doom had to deal with rape camps? (I'd say drug dealers, but he actually DID deal with that in an issue of Doom 2099. He handled it personally in two pages). I find it disingenuous at best that the sole superhero kingdom ruled by a minority is the only one that has "real problems".

ETA: I was wrong, it was four pages. Admittedly, two of them are dialogue-less panels of him beating the living isht out of the drug dealer in question.

And he even beat the s*** (metaphorically, not necessarily literally, though in a superhero comic, I wouldn't be surprised if it were literally) out of the corrupt megacorps that had been running roughshod over the world, Latveria included, in 2099. Speaking of, the one thing that disappointed me most about the just-concluded 2099 event was that we never got a look at what Wakanda and/or Black Panther might have become or evolved into in that future.

[skyvolt2000]

Haters gonna...
https://www.cbr.com/terry-gilliam-hates-black-panther/

"It makes me crazy. It gives young black kids the idea that this is something to believe in.

So black kids are to believe in nothing?

I think the people who made it have never been to Africa. They went and got some stylist for some African pattern fabrics and things.

Has HE been to Africa? What part of this is a fictional city does he NOT get? So he expects Wakanda to be like Rwanda? Not all of Africa is a third world county.
I would love for him to show up where folks dress like Harry Potter.

“I don’t like the fact they’re dominating the place so much,” he said. “They’re taking all the money that should be available for a greater variety of films.

So the ONE time someone spends a LOT of money on a black film-it's taking money from others?

How many straight white male movies lost money that could have gone to other films?

[Redjack]

Because Wakanda is fictional, it's as Utopian as the writers decide to make it. If the writers tell me that crime doesn't exist there then it doesn't... but the reverse is also true.

I believe human trafficking can exist in Wakanda for the same reason I believe an Egyptian God empowers a guy in a cat suit to be her champion ... because the books tell me so.

If the next guy retcons it, fine ... point being marvel gets to decide this stuff. I can like or dislike it, but its obviously still marvels call.

nope. that's not how it works. it's not just a grab bag where you get to do anything you want and say, "Oh, well, it's fictional, so anything goes." While realism is kind of silly to apply to these things, plausibility isn't. THat's the bread and butter of super-hero fiction and that means the logic of the story must be internally consistent.

There is no way a culture that spent ten thousand years SUCCESSFULLY hiding from the world, murdering trespassers and developing itself into an inward-looking utopia would have the necessary outside connections to be part of a trafficking network or the necessary customer base for cocaine dealers to find a way in. How, in fact, would the drug traffickers get to Wakanda's border much less inside? no way. Wakanda doesn't engage in commerce with the outside world. how could it? why would it? it's the opposite of what the nation is set up to be.

are there heroin overdoses in Asgard? Nope. No one would believe it and they'd be right not to. It flies in the face of the established rules. yes, there are some.

and, yes, writers do break them but they should only break them in ways that- wait for it- still follow the rules of plausibility.