Avengers #12 (spoilers)

[Rosebunse]

Ask again after he finally uses the Squadron Supreme.

Given the team's history, let's be honest, there's not much Aaron can do to trash them. Their morality has always been somewhat dubious.

[Reviresco]

Thriving in extreme natural environments is the entire purpose of Ka-Zar. If you can't believe that he could spy, not engage -- spy on post-Celestial crash Atlantis, then you also can't believe that he spends most of his time fighting dinosaurs with a knife. But he can and he does.

??? I've never heard this before now, though I am by no means an expert on Ka-Zar. Does this actually appear in a comic before Aaron's Avengers? AFAIK, Ka-Zar is known as Marvel's Tarzan. A JUNGLE lord. What are these other extreme environments that Ka-Zar has repeatedly dealt with that have established this reputation? Why does Aaron need Moonwolf? Just shoot Ka-Zar into outerspace, with just his knife and in his loin cloth, and he can handle spying on Galactus.

Fighting dinosaurs with a knife is what Ka-zar does -- Tarzan / Jungle Lord. It doesn't require superhuman powers -- at least not in Ka-zar's comic book history. It doesn't require gills. It doesn't require changing body chemistry, altering his skin and lungs and eyes, and trying to move, much less evade Namor and the Atlanteans, with tons and tons of water crushing every inch of your body.

Ka-Zar's entire purpose is to protect the Savage Land. So, actually, if he was written to his purpose, he'd be supporting Namor and his quest to protect his own environment against scumbag exploiters like Roxxon.

Also, Ka-Zar did more than spy. He did engage with one of the allies / guardians of Atlantis or more precisely, the Defenders of the Deep -- the giant piranha monster.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I mean, the writers are fans. All of them have their own favorites and agendas on how to use these characters. That isn't a bad thing.

Some of these writers have had these stories in their heads since they themselves were kids and I don't think that's a bad thing.

I honestly think it is.

Writers should be their character's worst enemies, not best friend.

Thriving in extreme natural environments is the entire purpose of Ka-Zar. If you can't believe that he could spy, not engage -- spy on post-Celestial crash Atlantis, then you also can't believe that he spends most of his time fighting dinosaurs with a knife. But he can and he does.

That's like saying because Spider-man is super strong, he could be able to beat the Hulk at arm wrestling. There are limitations to everything

[Rosebunse]

I mean, plenty of writers who love their characters also do awful, cruel things to them. And why shouldn't writers want to do some story with their character that they've always wanted?

And yes, there are and should be limitations, but all Ka-Zar did was do some recon, not take on Namor himself.

[Reviresco]

In the head canon of my mind, it's been five years since Secret Invasion. I know this doesn't really jive with canon, but it's my head canon and I'm sticking to it.

To a certain point, I think we all sort of just have to go with what makes sense to us individually by using clues and our own ideas.

And, like science. Yes, I understand these are comic books, but surely we can agree on certain things like gravity, and normal humans can't breath water.

Who is Aaron trashing? As I just saif, there aren't a ton of characters Aaron can use. Marvel doesn't have a huge roster of aquatic characters who aren't in some way connected with Namor. And to Aaron's credit, he didn't murder Stingray, but he did take him out of commission. And of course Namor is going to kick Stingray's ass. [B]That's just how things should be.

And yes, it is improbable that Ka-Zar would be able to survive all that, but it's improbable that Ka-Zar would be able to survive a lot of things.

Those vampires shouldn't be able to survive in space, Man Wolf isn't even wearing a oxygen mask, and there's probably a dozen other things that don't make sense.

He's trashing Namor and Atlantis, so Ka-Zar can have an impossible "top tier feat" and T'challa can have spies EVERYWHERE. Part of Atlantis 'powers' is that it is in such an inaccessible place and is one of the most advanced nations on the planet. It shouldn't have everyone and their uncle tramping through or invading it or 'infiltrating' it.

I agree. Namor overwhelming Stingray makes sense and is how things should be. Ka-Zar, without gear, actually getting to Atlantis, at the bottom of the ocean, much less 'infiltrating it' is not how things should be, and why I object.

Aren't vampires dead? Why wouldn't they be able to survive in space? As long as they stay out the sunlight. Wasn't there a Captain Britain issue with Drac on the moon? And isn't Moon Wolf a god?

Well, let's see, how about a guy who has actually been to an underwater city (with gear), talked to Namor, and has a relationship with Namora that he might call on. You know, GORILLA MAN, Agent of Atlas.

[Reviresco]

I mean, plenty of writers who love their characters also do awful, cruel things to them. And why shouldn't writers want to do some story with their character that they've always wanted?

And yes, there are and should be limitations, but all Ka-Zar did was do some recon, not take on Namor himself.

AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN. Ka-Zar has no gills. He is not superhuman. He has nothing to counter the hostile environment.

And there was the implication warning that he had to avoid Namor -- a guy who can sense currents and movement in the ocean. And the average Atlantean is closer to superhuman, than any air breather. Because they live at the bottom of the ocean and have to live their entire lives with ten times more weight on every inch of their bodies.

[Ezyo1000]

Okoye, Blade, Wasp, Morbius, Gorilla Man, Kazar, Kasper J. Cole [have him grow his hair out like the rapper too] and Agent Solomon.

In my biased opinion, that should be be the core 8... with Cole and Agent Solomon [Roz??] being the "everyday" man and woman who just have incredulous expressions on their faces with all the wonkiness and vampires and wakandan tech their thrust in. It'd be lit. I think that's a great book waiting to happen, and they can make it serious and introspective on these great characters that have been neglected to various degrees.

It can also be guest appearances galore. i.e. an entire issue could've been split between Kazar sneaking through Atlantis and Wasp breaking Morbius out of vampire prison. Could've been a guest appearance with Domino in the latter story. Let's ask Mr. Thorne to pitch the book

Dude I like that idea. Hey would be the Clint and Natasha of the group, they two most "normal" of the group. And Yeah this team could be a hub for characters stuck in Limbo that could maybe make an appearance (but giving much needed development for Okoye, really push that right hand of Tchalla/ his general role) abd giving Kasper a place to cut loose a little as well.

Thorne would absolutely crush it. Just give him a A list artist and let him put in work

[Prof. Warren]

AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN. Ka-Zar has no gills. He is not superhuman. He has nothing to counter the hostile environment.

And there was the implication warning that he had to avoid Namor -- a guy who can sense currents and movement in the ocean. And the average Atlantean is closer to superhuman, than any air breather. Because they live at the bottom of the ocean and have to live their entire lives with ten times more weight on every inch of their bodies.

Hmm. It's almost like Ka-Zar is a character in a comic book where he and every other super-powered character are only creations of the imagination and are capable of absolutely impossible acts. Because, you know, they're not real.

So trying to earnestly argue how illogical it is that the savage who fights dinosaurs all day on a hidden land filled with prehistoric creatures should have any advantage against fish people who live on the bottom of the ocean is, in itself, laughable. This isn't hard science. It's fantasy, it's comics, it's just fun.

[Reviresco]

Hmm. It's almost like Ka-Zar is a character in a comic book where he and every other super-powered character are only creations of the imagination and are capable of absolutely impossible acts. Because, you know, they're not real.

So trying to earnestly argue how illogical it is that the savage who fights dinosaurs all day on a hidden land filled with prehistoric creatures should have any advantage against fish people who live on the bottom of the ocean is, in itself, laughable. This isn't hard science. It's fantasy, it's comics, it's just fun.

Thank you for calling my posts laughable.

But even by your personal definition of comics, it still fails. I didn't find it fun at all. I found it stupid.

Good fiction follows its own internal logic. Ever heard of the phrase, "suspension of disbelief?" Every heard of the phrase "shared universe?" How about "world outside your window"? Again, this books fails -- in all those cases.

[Rosebunse]

Technically, Marvel has long established that the writer is essentially God, so with that in mind, so long as the story is good, anything goes.

One thing I'm wondering is, if the new Lord of the Vampires isn't Blade or Morbius, then who else is there? And anyone have any idea who this Shadow Colonel might be? He looks like a Nazi.

[Reviresco]

Technically, Marvel has long established that the writer is essentially God, so with that in mind, so long as the story is good, anything goes.

One thing I'm wondering is, if the new Lord of the Vampires isn't Blade or Morbius, then who else is there? And anyone have any idea who this Shadow Colonel might be? He looks like a Nazi.

Why ask? Logic and previous history doesn't matter. Anything goes. It's probably Ka-Zar. ;p

[King_Thor13]

If I were setting up an Agents of Wakanda title I'd be going for a more diverse and global equivalent of what SHIELD once was.
We started with a pretty good selection of characters. I'm not necessarily a big fan of all of the inclusions, but I appreciate what Aaron is going for.

I said as much in an earlier post, but I'd be adding Thunderball (who has interacted with T'Challa somewhat recently and is a capable scientist), Nightshade (now wearing the Nighthawk armor but using the Nightshade codename, now that we've got a Nighthawk in the Squadron, plus it's a cooler codename anyway), Battlestar (recommended by John Walker, who declines the offer to join), Cardiac (personally recruited by T'Challa, who admires his intelligence and dedication to help others), Druid (a freelance magic user with a history among Avengers & Secret Warriors), Misty Knight & Colleen Wing (reserve members when they're not busy running operations back in NYC) and I'd have Shang-Chi + Mockingbird be inducted into the fold too.

As for Wasp, I'd promote her to the Avengers core team OR move her over to a New Avengers title once No Road Home wraps, joining Spectrum, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man etc. I think Janet is more than deserving of a bigger role than playing second fiddle to the Avengers, and she'd likely overshadow the Agents of Wakanda.

[Rosebunse]

Why ask? Logic and previous history doesn't matter. Anything goes. It's probably Ka-Zar. ;p

Hmm...that isn't a bad idea, actually.

[Reviresco]

Hmm...that isn't a bad idea, actually.

"I don't need fangs! I got a KNIFE! And I can live on the moon in only my LOIN CLOTH!! Fear me, vampires or DIE LIKE A DINO!"

[Rosebunse]

"I don't need fangs! I got a KNIFE! And I can live on the moon in only my LOIN CLOTH!! Fear me, vampires or DIE LIKE A DINO!"

The moon does have an area that has breathable air, so this could actually work.