Monkey D. Luffy and Ichigo Kurosaki vs. Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki

[Morning]

You trying to claim that people in Naruto are significant fractions of light speed?

I'm not sure you have the feats for that.

I feel quite sure.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...to#post3884694

[Morning]

Madara apparently has an attack that (according to a Databook) moves at light speed which Naruto dodges

This one is less explicit in the manga, wherein the best we could say for certain is that Naruto dodges the turn of Madara's head. However, if you consider how fast this version of Madara is (with Guy having to move fast enough to bend space to finally land a hit on him), that's better than nothing. Naruto is faster than Madara in general.

[Nik Hasta]

I feel quite sure.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...to#post3884694

Okay... let's just dump the quote in here.

There's that. There's the guy moving so fast in 8 gates mode that he bent space around him. There's the fact that Madara could percieve quickly enough to see this attack coming, but not enough to defend against it, and that he managed only the same level of reaction against a blitz from Sasuke a few issues later. There's Naruto and Sasuke moving so fast that Madara's sage lightning appears frozen in midair. There's the whole "Raikage can move at lightning speed when cloaked in lightning" thing (which could be narrative hyperbole except that it actually makes sense powerscaling-wise with the other feats of other fast characters) and Kyuubi-cloaked Naruto's reflexive dodge of it.

And then there's Toneri's moon-cutting beam... no matter how you feel about it's ability to cut through the somewhat hollow moon, the fact that it extends to a greater length than the diameter of the moon in, at most, a couple seconds is relevant. Because later he extends it at relatively short range directly at Naruto, who not only reacts after it starts, but takes maybe a dozen steps running straight towards it before he intercepts.

All of this suggests that Naruto is somewhere around light speed. Any other explanation would require a sort of systematic dismantling of the physics of the canon series that would seem beyond what the author could have intended.

There's some stuff in this that doesn't track for me, I gotta go out to a gig but I'll get into it tomorrow or the weekend maybe.

[Morning]

Okay... let's just dump the quote in here.



There's some stuff in this that doesn't track for me, I gotta go out to a gig but I'll get into it tomorrow or the weekend maybe.

Ok, but since the quote is here now, I'll just add that the "that" I was referring to is a fatally ill Itachi successfully reacting to lightning. And that version of Itachi is many tiers below final-arc Naruto, Sasuke, Madara, Hashirama and Guy on the power scale.

[BitVyper]

Successfully reacting to lightning is kind of a weird feat because actual lightning has wildly different effective speeds depending on whether you're looking at the lead or return stroke. The return stroke is the "fast" one, and it's moving along a channel that's already made, so I don't think that speed can really apply to just any lightning attack unless the narrative is extremely clear about it. The leader stroke is effectively a lot slower because of how it moves. Best data I can find is around 27800 k/s for the return stroke and 61 k/s for the leader. Of course, neither of those is anywhere close to C.

Edit: For that matter, I don't really buy any lightning attack that isn't an actual lightning bolt out of the sky as anything more than a lightning-shaped energy blast, myself.

[Jcogginsa]

Successfully reacting to lightning is kind of a weird feat because actual lightning has wildly different effective speeds depending on whether you're looking at the lead or return stroke. The return stroke is the "fast" one, and it's moving along a channel that's already made, so I don't think that speed can really apply to just any lightning attack unless the narrative is extremely clear about it. The leader stroke is effectively a lot slower because of how it moves. Best data I can find is around 27800 k/s for the return stroke and 61 k/s for the leader. Of course, neither of those is anywhere close to C.

Edit: For that matter, I don't really buy any lightning attack that isn't an actual lightning bolt out of the sky as anything more than a lightning-shaped energy blast, myself.

IIRC, it was Itachi reacting to Kirin, which was actual Lightning from the sky

[BitVyper]

IIRC, it was Itachi reacting to Kirin, which was actual Lightning from the sky

Fair enough. I saw various lightning-things in Naruto when I tried to look it up, so I wasn't sure. Anyway, a lot of stuff is happening in a lightning strike, and of course there's a lot of distance involved, so without something indicating precisely what we're seeing, then as with Esdeath, I tend to place that as somewhere above bullet time, but not really getting into anything relativistic. I'd be willing to bet that the speed scaling of attacks within Naruto would rate the dodge better than I'd rate it from just knowing that it was a lightning bolt.

[Nik Hasta]

Okay... let's just dump the quote in here.

There's some stuff in this that doesn't track for me, I gotta go out to a gig but I'll get into it tomorrow or the weekend maybe.

Alrighty, let's get into this stuff a little.

First up, Itachi and "reacting" to Kirin. Kirin is notable in that it uses ambient natural energy to make a real lightning strike as opposed to the lightning chakra energy that normal Raiton users employ that don't move at lightning speed that we can discern.

In the sequence, Sasuke takes a long time to setup the technique, Zetsu is literally monologing and Itachi just watches and Sasuke then launches it with what amounts to a pun and a lazy flip of the hand. Then everything explodes.

There is nothing in text to suggest that Itachi reacts to the lightning bolt itself, as all he has to do is just has to turn on his thought activated omnidirectional shield mech suit technique. He's still completely knocked on his arse as well. It's not a speedfeat, or at least not one that is concrete enough to suggest anything like the curve you're proposing.

On to the other stuff:

There's that. There's the guy moving so fast in 8 gates mode that he bent space around him.

One, this is completely impossible to quantifiable in terms of actual speed.

Two, the apparently unique property of Gai bending space through speed is never replicated by anyone else ergo this is an apparent conceptual ceiling of speed.

Three, I'd personally argue that it's the absurd density of Gai's chakra that bends space in the area rather than the property of him running fast given that space is bending in an area Gai hasn't passed through yet.

Regarding point three though, while I think it's correct, it actually doesn't matter for my argument because I'm going to work on the basis that 8 Gates Gai is the conceptual ceiling for speed in the series.

There's the fact that Madara could percieve quickly enough to see this attack coming, but not enough to defend against it,

Which tells us essentially nothing in terms of his actual usable speed beyond "a lot slower than Gai,"

Also, I'll note that Gai got into a running start pose and just ran and jump kicked at him. Madara was literally like "Hahahahaha, this is awesome, I love it," It wasn't like it was a hard move to see coming or he was overly concerned about dodging it.

and that he managed only the same level of reaction against a blitz from Sasuke a few issues later.

Sasuke blitzed him while Madara was just finishing ramming an eyeball into his own face and again, had time to comment that Sasuke was quick. This emphatically does not make Sasuke equal to 8 Gates Gai. It makes him, at best, faster than Madara. Minimum, faster than Madara expected.

There's Naruto and Sasuke moving so fast that Madara's sage lightning appears frozen in midair.

Which is chakra based and thus not real lightning. Also, Naruto does all of throwing a sage rod in the air and Sasuke teleports using his Rinnegan ability which requires him to look and think. Neither dodge, neither move any really significant distance. It's a decent reaction feat for both of them but not in a significant percent of lightspeed kind of way.

There's the whole "Raikage can move at lightning speed when cloaked in lightning" thing (which could be narrative hyperbole except that it actually makes sense powerscaling-wise with the other feats of other fast characters) and Kyuubi-cloaked Naruto's reflexive dodge of it.

Nope, that would be just narrative hyperbole.

And then there's Toneri's moon-cutting beam... no matter how you feel about it's ability to cut through the somewhat hollow moon, the fact that it extends to a greater length than the diameter of the moon in, at most, a couple seconds is relevant. Because later he extends it at relatively short range directly at Naruto, who not only reacts after it starts, but takes maybe a dozen steps running straight towards it before he intercepts.

Naruto was already running before the beam fired but that's irrelevant.

Posting the video for clarity:



You know... I'm actually going to math this one a little if people will indulge me.

1) Toneri's beam actually exceeds the frame so we don't see how long it took before it reached full moon length. For arguments' sake, let's say from the time it launched (5:56), to the time he swung it (6:03), is how long it took to extend to moon length. The diameter of the moon is 3,474km. 3474/6 = 579 km/s. That is... a little under 0.002 times the speed of light. That's 1/2000th to show it in a fraction. Or, Mach 1700. As an aside, that's actually pretty in line for where I would expect top tier Naruto characters to be, absurdly high multimach albeit nowhere near the speed of light.

2) For the intercept, Naruto is like about 50 metres from Toneri maybe. He'd just smacked him an ambiguous distance away before beginning the run so it's a little hard to tell. He runs for like a dozen steps or so, while monologing (talking is free action ho ho) in the time it takes a 1700ish beam to go that far. So...

Mach 1700 = 578,493 metres/sec

Let's say Naruto travels... 10 metres in his dozen or so steps, it looks about that far from the footage.

It would take the beam 0.00006 seconds to cover 40 metres so Naruto covers 10 metres in that same time. So that makes Naruto 1/4th the speed of the beam.

Which maaaakes... Mach 425 or 0.0005 of C.

Or 1/50,000th of lightspeed.

So yeah...

All of this suggests that Naruto is somewhere around light speed. Any other explanation would require a sort of systematic dismantling of the physics of the canon series that would seem beyond what the author could have intended.

Or you misread some feats and made some weird logical leaps. I don't see anything that's remotely approaching lightspeed I'm afraid.

Heck, with the Toneri feat, which is arguably the best case you have, I'll be mad generous. Let's say it takes the beam 1 second to go the diameter of the moon. It didn't but let's pretend.

That would still be 1/116th of the speed of light and /still/ faster than Naruto because it went further than him in the same timeframe.

Naruto isn't lightspeed. No one in Naruto is lightspeed.

[Sol_M]

Eh... I think Luffy and Ichigo can likely take it.

Or more accurately, if Naruto and Sasuke can do it, I would buy Luffy and Ichigo being able to replicate the feat.

Naruto and Ichigo both seem on the level of multi-mountain busting, while Luffy... Isn't quite there. Not sure he'd be able to replicate the same stuff Naruto does.

Ichigo maybe.

When was the last Ichigo vs Naruto thread?

Naruto was already running before the beam fired but that's irrelevant.

Posting the video for clarity:



You know... I'm actually going to math this one a little if people will indulge me.

1) Toneri's beam actually exceeds the frame so we don't see how long it took before it reached full moon length. For arguments' sake, let's say from the time it launched (5:56), to the time he swung it (6:03), is how long it took to extend to moon length. The diameter of the moon is 3,474km. 3474/6 = 579 km/s. That is... a little under 0.002 times the speed of light. That's 1/2000th to show it in a fraction. Or, Mach 1700. As an aside, that's actually pretty in line for where I would expect top tier Naruto characters to be, absurdly high multimach albeit nowhere near the speed of light.

2) For the intercept, Naruto is like about 50 metres from Toneri maybe. He'd just smacked him an ambiguous distance away before beginning the run so it's a little hard to tell. He runs for like a dozen steps or so, while monologing (talking is free action ho ho) in the time it takes a 1700ish beam to go that far. So...

Mach 1700 = 578,493 metres/sec

Let's say Naruto travels... 10 metres in his dozen or so steps, it looks about that far from the footage.

It would take the beam 0.00006 seconds to cover 40 metres so Naruto covers 10 metres in that same time. So that makes Naruto 1/4th the speed of the beam.

Which maaaakes... Mach 425 or 0.0005 of C.

Or 1/50,000th of lightspeed.

So yeah...

Minor nitpick, these fights are presumably happening at super speed so we don't know what 1 second translates to in real time.

Not that it matters because the calcs are still solid and consistent with the info we do have.

That would still be 1/116th of the speed of light and /still/ faster than Naruto because it went further than him in the same timeframe.

Naruto isn't lightspeed. No one in Naruto is lightspeed.

To be fair 1/116th of lightspeed, or even 1/50000th of lightspeed is arguably faster than anything Luffy has demonstrated and possibly at least as fast as anything Ichigo, specifically, has done, somewhat lengthy speed algorithm notwithstanding.

[Nik Hasta]

My intent was less to prove the speed superiority of Naruto or Bleach rather than to prove that Naruto as a franchise is not light speed.

I'll happily dig into Bleach or what have you for a comparative breakdown but wine has been drunk so off to bed I go.

Luffy is the turtle here, that much is for sure.

[Guy1]

My intent was less to prove the speed superiority of Naruto or Bleach rather than to prove that Naruto as a franchise is not light speed.

I'll happily dig into Bleach or what have you for a comparative breakdown but wine has been drunk so off to bed I go.

Luffy is the turtle here, that much is for sure.

[Sol_M]

My intent was less to prove the speed superiority of Naruto or Bleach rather than to prove that Naruto as a franchise is not light speed.

Oh, I get that. Just wondering how the speed breakdown jives with your original comments on Ichigo and Luffy being able to do it because Naruto could because while it's not lightspeed, it's still impressive enough that I'm not convinced they could do it just because he could.

I'll happily dig into Bleach or what have you for a comparative breakdown but wine has been drunk so off to bed I go.

Luffy is the turtle here, that much is for sure.

Haha, no worries, get some rest. There'll be plenty of time to do that breakdown later.

[Jcogginsa]

Naruto and Ichigo both seem on the level of multi-mountain busting, while Luffy... Isn't quite there. Not sure he'd be able to replicate the same stuff Naruto does.

Ichigo maybe.

When was the last Ichigo vs Naruto thread?


Minor nitpick, these fights are presumably happening at super speed so we don't know what 1 second translates to in real time.

Not that it matters because the calcs are still solid and consistent with the info we do have.


To be fair 1/116th of lightspeed, or even 1/50000th of lightspeed is arguably faster than anything Luffy has demonstrated and possibly at least as fast as anything Ichigo, specifically, has done, somewhat lengthy speed algorithm notwithstanding.

Hasn't Luffy dodged an actualy laser made of light XD?

[Sol_M]

Hasn't Luffy dodged an actualy laser made of light XD?

I am not really up to date on Luffy's most recent feats, so I wouldn't know.

If you're referring to Kizaru though, then no, that's definitely not actually lightspeed, just energy attacks that resemble light.

[Jcogginsa]

I am not really up to date on Luffy's most recent feats, so I wouldn't know.

If you're referring to Kizaru though, then no, that's definitely not actually lightspeed, just energy attacks that resemble light.

Turning into Light is literally Kizaru's power