Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Marvell2100]

If you're putting yourself in a position where you know you will get murdered then yeah... in that context it's effectively the same thing. Staying was suicide and she knew it.

So Captain America was committing suicide in Endgame.

Only the reader knew that Shuri was likely going to die, she didn't.

[Marvell2100]

Yeah, you can very much argue she had an obligation to contact the authorities at that point. If anyone was asking why she didn't call the authorities at that point rather than the tree house rape, I'd be agreeing with them.

So we finally have you agreeing what Coates wrote was stupid.

[Marvell2100]

I don't mind killing rapist, but the body they deserved to be arrested for is M'Bakus' cousin. I don't remember them presenting any evidence of wrong doing besides him defending his lands.

I'm not arguing against it, I'm just pointing out how the double-standard.

[XPac]

What.. what in bast name are you talking about? Coates doesn't show Shuri Supporting Wakandans willing to die. He shows Shuri telling rape victims they should of been left to be raped and killed and accepted that fate, a fate that they had no choice in. Shuri chose to stay and fight proxima, those victim's didn't want to be there. So where are you getting this notion that those two scenes (Hickmans and Coates) are the same.

You keep saying Shuri dying means alot more then random Wakandans dying, but that was never even the topic or what I even said. I very specifically asked of those two scenes, tro and Coates issue 12 scenes were equal in character assassination for Shuri in regards to how she comes off and her attitude (to T'Challa in Hickmans, and the rape victims in Coates).. I can't make it anymore clear yet you keep going off on a tangent about Shuri dying or being alive

THe scenes arent' the same because the rape victims didn't have the same willingness to die that she did. But Shuri was suggesting that they should have. So there's a degree of symetry there which makes Hickmans scene slighty less horrible. There's consisteny in Shuri's though process which makes it a bit more in character. A bit.

As far as that never being the topic... trace the conversation backwards because the actual topic was me being asked what scenes I personally felt were the worst. I mentioned the SHuri scene which is what the topic of discussion actually was. You're actually the tangent here, not me.

[XPac]

So we finally have you agreeing what Coates wrote was stupid.

Actually what I'm saying is what Coates wrote makes Hickmans scene slightly less stupid. It retroactively makes what she did more in character by establishing that she feels others should act the same way.

I STILL think it's dumb that she should stay to fight a meaningless battle she will lose when there are thousand of other Wakandans which can potentially benefit from her help ... but if nothing else the act is more in character.

[Ezyo1000]

THe scenes arent' the same because the rape victims didn't have the same willingness to die that she did. But Shuri was suggesting that they should have. So there's a degree of symetry there which makes Hickmans scene slighty less horrible. There's consisteny in Shuri's though process which makes it a bit more in character. A bit.

As far as that never being the topic... trace the conversation backwards because the actual topic was me being asked what scenes I personally felt were the worst. I mentioned the SHuri scene which is what the topic of discussion actually was. You're actually the tangent here, not me.

You mentioned the Shuri scene and said it was dumb that she threw her Life away, and kept on going saying that you thought it was character assassination. Yes? You also stated that you felt that scene was more damaging then the rape camp scene. Yes?

Then I asked further in the conversation. What do you think of the character assassination Coates shows in his story with Shuri this is where I show the scans of Shuri telling victim's, her own people, they should of accepted their fate of rape then death. I asked is that scene to you, as bad or worse then Hickmans scene. I had to ask that question several times because you didn't answer and instead went on to talk about how Shuris death was a bigger deal then random Wakandans dying and how you thought it was stupid that Hickman didn't make T'Challa save her.

Again I Asked a very specific question, and you kept on going to answer something I didn't even ask, yet kept quoting me

[Daoud]

Okay I'm only going to address the first part of your post, about BP and us enthusiast criticizing writers. You say you agree with X-Pac because he is knowledgeable..
95% of the people posting in this thread are just as knowledgeable and some are even more knowledgeable then he is. His claim to Hickman being worse then Coates with that scene about Shuri dying and T'Challa being cool with it. Here is the scene for context:



What follows that panel is Shuri telling T'Challa she will miss him and him responding that he will see her soon. Hardly him being"cool" with her dying. And you claim this is worse then this:






That's how Jonathan Hickman ended his arc with T'Challa and coates scene takes place 8 months later.

So yeah Coates has done more damage. As for Mayberry? Everyone in here has unanimously agreed that (prior to Coates) he is the worst BP writer and Doom war was astronomically stupid. However, your assumption that under Coates pen that T'Challa didn't know he was dealing with dictators is false and shows a lack of knowledge about his run as in that issue T'Challa is having a internal conversation in which he is saying he knows they are all known despots, yet met with them just to see what they would say and when the *gasp* betrayal happens, even casuals reading the book went "WTF that was obviously a set up".

Doom war was stupid and damaging. And Hickmans saving grace to T'Challa abd Wakanda happened in the scene that I posted above. Coates though has: introduced rape, misogyny, gender inequality, and an uncaring government into Wakanda in S1, all of that stuff goes against established continuity especially the gender inequality because the mythos has been very much supporting and putting women in roles of authority.

S2 he introduced Wakanda being a Columbus analogue, and completely contradicting the entire reason for why Lee and Kirby created Wakanda (he also did this in S1 but he just kept on compiling onto it here) by making them into colonizers and driving the denizens out in chains, and changed the Wakandan gods so he could power up Storm and simultaneously throw T'Challa and Wakanda under the bus to do so.

S3 he takes it to another level by making intergalactic Wakanda literally America except 5x worse in regards to slavery. He claims that Wakandans if given the chance would essentially become colonizers (even though they could of done that in the 616 if they really wanted to but chose not to) and makes this season an allegory of the slave trade.

All this is infinitely more damaging then anything the others have done because he imposed isht into the mythos that completely goes against continuity because (in a recent interview) he confirms he thinks it's his role to tell slave stories so now Wakanda is shackled with isht that BP and his world was created to combat and go against in the first place

Ezyo,

Excellent posts!

I think people like Coates don't really understand martial honor, and from his writing, honor in general.
Weakness and degradation is all he has for T'Challa and Wakanda under the guise of the perennial excuse for moral depravity, "keeping it real".
He said his series wasn't going to be a "black male power fantasy" and he delivered on his promise.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/ta-nehisi-co...her-1786632598

Now most people who want to read about a Righteous Super Genius King from an African Utopia have no use for Coates' stories.
Thus those who do praise this current series do so for reasons other than a superlative showing of the titles titular protagonist or his homeland.

I'm not the biggest fan of Hickman but I appreciated the writing in the scene between Queen Shuri and T'Challa.
She went to die with honor as befits a warrior Queen!
At the end of the story, Hickman also left a restored Wakanda as a strong and inspiring nation reaching for the stars.

Coates has no use for such imagery when the motive forces in his imagination are as depicted in his writing in the middle image.
It is just sad and pathetic really.

I will NEVER be a fan of this degrading boring tripe Coates is trying to pass off.

I will ALWAYS be a fan of awesome stories of the Righteous Super Genius King from an African Utopia, T'Challa the Black Panther!



Excelsior!

Daoud

[XPac]

So Captain America was committing suicide in Endgame.

Only the reader knew that Shuri was likely going to die, she didn't.

You can argue Cap in End Game was somewhat suicidal, but I wouldn't call it stupid.

It's questionable whether or not he would be able to esape even if he tried. But since THanos was going to destroy the Universe at that moment, running really doesn't net him anything anyways. He either fights and likely dies, or he just dies. Under the circumstances might as well try and fight. Nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[XPac]

You mentioned the Shuri scene and said it was dumb that she threw her Life away, and kept on going saying that you thought it was character assassination. Yes? You also stated that you felt that scene was more damaging then the rape camp scene. Yes?

Then I asked further in the conversation. What do you think of the character assassination Coates shows in his story with Shuri this is where I show the scans of Shuri telling victim's, her own people, they should of accepted their fate of rape then death. I asked is that scene to you, as bad or worse then Hickmans scene. I had to ask that question several times because you didn't answer and instead went on to talk about how Shuris death was a bigger deal then random Wakandans dying and how you thought it was stupid that Hickman didn't make T'Challa save her.

Again I Asked a very specific question, and you kept on going to answer something I didn't even ask, yet kept quoting me

I think I already said early on in this conversation that pretty much NOTHING is worse than Hickmans scene, because Shuri dying is worse than anything that can happen short of T'Challa dying. Because Shuri is so important to the mythos, the scene with her dead is worse (IMO at least) than any scene I've seen in Coates books.

[Ezyo1000]

Ezyo,

Excellent posts!

I think people like Coates don't really understand martial honor, and from his writing, honor in general.
Weakness and degradation is all he has for T'Challa and Wakanda under the guise of the perennial excuse for moral depravity, "keeping it real".
He said his series wasn't going to be a "black male power fantasy" and he delivered on his promise.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/ta-nehisi-co...her-1786632598

Now most people who want to read about a Righteous Super Genius King from an African Utopia have no use for Coates' stories.
Thus those who do praise this current series do so for reasons other than a superlative showing of the titles titular protagonist or his homeland.

I'm not the biggest fan of Hickman but I appreciated the writing in the scene between Queen Shuri and T'Challa.
She went to die with honor as befits a warrior Queen!
At the end of the story, Hickman also left a restored Wakanda as a strong and inspiring nation reaching for the stars.

Coates has no use for such imagery when the motive forces in his imagination are as depicted in his writing in the middle image.
It is just sad and pathetic really.

I will NEVER be a fan of this degrading boring tripe Coates is trying to pass off.

I will ALWAYS be a fan of awesome stories of the Righteous Super Genius King from an African Utopia, T'Challa the Black Panther!



Excelsior!

Daoud

Exactly, I am about the righteous super genius king from an African Utopia. That's what we are all here for, the true enthusiasts. That's what Lee and Kirby intended, that is what Priest Hudlin, Redjack (BP cartoon) Coogler, McDuffie etc, All champion, and that is what resonates with people. This sucka isht we see isn't BP. This is someone's low self-esteem portrayal of self loathing and regression where these should be forward movement to a new plateaue for T'Challa and Wakanda

[Ezyo1000]

I think I already said early on in this conversation that pretty much NOTHING is worse than Hickmans scene, because Shuri dying is worse than anything that can happen short of T'Challa dying. Because Shuri is so important to the mythos, the scene with her dead is worse (IMO at least) than any scene I've seen in Coates books.

And I brought up another scene in which character assassination occured and Coates book, but apparently to you it's fine and within character, her telling her own people to be raped and die completely within character and not character assassination right?

It's really just ironic

[XPac]

And I brought up another scene in which character assassination occured and Coates book, but apparently to you it's fine and within character, her telling her own people to be raped and die completely within character and not character assassination right?

It's really just ironic

From a purely character assasination stand point, Coates retroctively makes Hickmans scene less bad because theres established consistency to a degree.

But in the context of Shuri basically abandoning the remaining Wakandans the Hickman scene is still worse. While dying for Wakanda may be acceptable to Shuri, living to aid them in their time of need should still be the priority.

[XPac]

M'Baku was an enemy. Nothing was presented that the Jabari lands went currently a problem. M'baku got an invite to the wedding. He didn't seem to be a problem.

Again, the old woman the MA were talking to claimed that they were being attacked. Maybe she was lying or flat out wrong, but there are indicator there were problems there which T'CHalla was seemingly too busy to deal with at the time. But the MA ended up dealing with it for him, so it was a win win all around. Or at least a win win for T'Challa and the Doras. Not so much for the monkey suit guy.

[Marvell2100]

You can argue Cap in End Game was somewhat suicidal, but I wouldn't call it stupid.

It's questionable whether or not he would be able to esape even if he tried. But since THanos was going to destroy the Universe at that moment, running really doesn't net him anything anyways. He either fights and likely dies, or he just dies. Under the circumstances might as well try and fight. Nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Same situation for Shuri.

[XPac]

Same situation for Shuri.

Not the same situation for Shuri. She could have easily just teleported away with T"Challa rather than stay and fight.

Let me flip the question and ask why it's better that Shuri stayed and died? Who does Shuri dying benefit exactly? Is T'Challa better off with her dying there rather than simply returning with her? Are the remaining Wakandans better off with Shuri dead than alive? Why exactly doe Shuri staying to die somehow make more sense than leaving to help T'Challa and Wakanda in the rest of the story?