Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[KingNomarch]

I mean looking for advice from other people is exactly what a leader should do if they are unsure of what the correct path is.

That’s the responsible thing to do. The irresponsible thing to do would be to just pretend you are always right and to not seek advice.

This would be fine if Coates didn't have T'Challa seek advice from people that he knew were from dictatorship regimes that used tactics like murdering and abusing their own people. Providing the pathetic excuse for this that T'Challa was desperate. If he was desperate those people will never be on the list that he'd call.

That's too OOC for T'Challa but nowhere near as bad as Coates having T'Challa deliberately do nothing about the young girls and old ladies that were being kept and literal treehouse rape camps.

[Dariel81]

Coates writes BP like its a novel and yeah thats not it..

[dkrook]

I mean looking for advice from other people is exactly what a leader should do if they are unsure of what the correct path is.

That’s the responsible thing to do. The irresponsible thing to do would be to just pretend you are always right and to not seek advice.

I hear you, but it becomes problematic when he seems to continuously make bad decisions and needing correction. At some folks are going to start wondering just why is this guy leading anything. Donnie J Trump is perfect illustration of this. EVERY decision won't always be the right one, but at least you must have exceptional wisdom and discernment to start with if you are to be a good leader. My question is this. From his beginning to right now, even if the character had to undergo any kind of deconstruction. How has T'challa been elevated and strengthened by the end of Coates run? Honest question. I have seen how Hulk, Steve, and even Thor have been improved and made better at the end of major runs.

[XPac]

T'Challa is a man who FOUGHT to become the Black Panther, which is the leader & protector of his country. But, Coates had him running around not accomplishing much.

Women raped in tree houses - T'Challa does nothing

He could not defeat a single villain by himself. Need so much outside help to accomplish small things (i.e. taking on Stane and his men, going up against the twins in Avengers of the new world, praying to Storm to beat adversary, etc).

In the African part of the world, it is a collective society. Many people take on responsibilities or make decisions based on the good of the community & family. If the Black Panther existed, he would have an a great amount of weight that he or she would feel on their shoulders. Priest, Hudlin, & the MCU captured this. Coates wrote a story about a man who ruled over the most technologically advanced country in the world that resides in Africa, who wanted to abandon that position to run around and do god knows what. Not be a superhero, because he couldn't save anyone single handedly. Not be a scientist, because besides the force push, he had to steal Dr Doom's tech.

T'Challa's country was falling apart and he went around complaining about being King.

The Black Panther takes the infinity stone and RESTORES THE WHOLE WORLD, and Wakanda wants to overthrow the king and style of government.

That's not leadership, or black Excellence. That's disfunction, irresponsible, & incompetent.

I think the problem with T'Challa using the stones to restore everything is that everything bad that happened to Wakanda STILL happened.

If you're unaware that T'Challa did anything, then that doesn't net him anything. If you are aware he restored everything and he still allowed events to happen the way they did, SOME people might be unhappy about that. Because of how things happened it's somewhat of a damned if ya do damned if ya don't situation.

But all that aside, even though people clearly wanted a form of government where they could vote I don't think Wakandans in general wanted to overthrow T'Challa. Even with the new government he's still king. I think the average Wakandan wanted the best of both worlds... they wanted T'Challa to be king and they wanted a government where they could have a greater voice. And they ended up getting it, so it was a win win.

[Ezyo1000]

I mean looking for advice from other people is exactly what a leader should do if they are unsure of what the correct path is.

That’s the responsible thing to do. The irresponsible thing to do would be to just pretend you are always right and to not seek advice.

The problem here is that Coates had T'Challa acting like he has never been King before. Like, of S1 was a new character and new place and the protagonist was thrust into kingship after the queen (Shuri) died and he wasn't prepared. I could believe the story. Because that's how T'Challa was presented by Coates. Completely clueless bumbling from one conflict to the next, being constantly talked down to by allies and villains and met with despots (which made no sense even casuals went wtf on that)

How T'Challa has been portrayed under Coates is how a year one, young and inexperienced, never even considered for the crown but forced into it character would act.

The story was bad given continuity reasons, and bad given that Coates out damn near every racist stereotype of Africa that he could into his stories

[Ezyo1000]

This would be fine if Coates didn't have T'Challa seek advice from people that he knew were from dictatorship regimes that used tactics like murdering and abusing their own people. Providing the pathetic excuse for this that T'Challa was desperate. If he was desperate those people will never be on the list that he'd call.

That's too OOC for T'Challa but nowhere near as bad as Coates having T'Challa deliberately do nothing about the young girls and old ladies that were being kept and literal treehouse rape camps.

Nah, it was worse then that. T'Challa didn't seek their advise because he was desperate. Coates had T'Challa seek their advice... Just to see what they would say... Like WTF kinda stupid isht is that? Then the next issue he tries to play it off like they didn't know that what happen? Like does Coates think we are idiots or something? It literally made zero sense other then to shade throw more on T'Challa

[Marvell2100]

2019 The Invaders sold poorly also and that team had Namor,Steve and Buck...
Most recent sidebooks sell poorly..

I liked that book too.

[Marvell2100]

I mean looking for advice from other people is exactly what a leader should do if they are unsure of what the correct path is.

That’s the responsible thing to do. The irresponsible thing to do would be to just pretend you are always right and to not seek advice.

Why would he go looking to advice from dictators though? And if he's connected to past Panthers, why not seek their advice?

This is the problem that too many of us have with Coates. He is inconsistent and contradictory in his own story and has T'Challa do so many things out of character.

If I didn't know any better I'd swear Coates was Roy Thomas.

[XPac]

Why would he go looking to advice from dictators though? And if he's connected to past Panthers, why not seek their advice?

This is the problem that too many of us have with Coates. He is inconsistent and contradictory in his own story and has T'Challa do so many things out of character.

If I didn't know any better I'd swear Coates was Roy Thomas.

He wasn't on speaking terms with the previous Panthers at that point in the story. They turned their backs on him in Time Runs Out. The relationship was revealed to have been repaired by the end of the first season, but at the start not so much.

As far as why he sought advice from dictators... I suppose theoretically they're the most experienced people at putting down coups when the people rise up for democracy.

[Maine Starfish]

Why would he go looking to advice from dictators though? And if he's connected to past Panthers, why not seek their advice?

This is the problem that too many of us have with Coates. He is inconsistent and contradictory in his own story and has T'Challa do so many things out of character.

If I didn't know any better I'd swear Coates was Roy Thomas.

Ok, so I don’t think T‘Challa is correct to seek advice from dictators. But I don’t think we are meant to think he is correct here, he doesn’t want to go to the council to begin with, it’s Hodari’s idea. And he’s obviously not interested in what they have to say, and ultimately rejects their ideas. It’s still a mistake to go in the first place, as we see Stane uses the meeting against BP.

[Ezyo1000]

What you guys seem to be ignoring is that, again, T'Challa has been King for a long time. It's not like he has never dealt with a coup before. Plus, knowing what we know about T'Challa, and how he cares about humanity, why would he EVER deal with despots? Plus continuity has shown all throughout his publication that he seeks the advice of his council and there there is a council on place that can run the day to day when he is away, so why would he go to despots, outsiders who don't know anything about Wakanda and people T'Challa would clearly see as evil men, for advice? what the frak do you think they would say? "Oh yeah just throw a banquet for the people and tell them everything thing will be sunshine and rainbows"

The whole despot thing was completely out of character, and given what Coates did with it. Was solely meant to tarnish T'Challa and make him look bad, simply because Coates story demanded to shade throw as much as possible. And yeah Coates tries to say it's hodaris idea, but a couple things. 1 T'Challa straight up would of said no. Wakanda has never Asked for help from outsiders and you think the first aid they will reach out for will be to despots for stopping a rebellion? Come-on.

Second, Coates turns around and has T'Challa show the truth about what happened.. and nothing changes, he still looks bad, changamire blame him for that still, and T'Challa just writes it off like "lol oops my bad".

Again Coates story would work for a new character with no history who's whole deal is that he was thrust into kingship, after his family members who proceeded him and had claim to the thrown were gone and he never had aspirations, or bothered, to learn how to rule, and his country was one that barely held itself together under a monarch. That's how out of touch with BP and Wakanda Coates is.

Simply put, Coates is pessimistic and doesn't like what Wakanda stands for and is supposed to represent and how took that view and showed an extremely contrived story into the BP mythos

[Maine Starfish]

People who are kings for a long time still make mistakes.

[Marvell2100]

Ok, so I don’t think T‘Challa is correct to seek advice from dictators. But I don’t think we are meant to think he is correct here, he doesn’t want to go to the council to begin with, it’s Hodari’s idea. And he’s obviously not interested in what they have to say, and ultimately rejects their ideas. It’s still a mistake to go in the first place, as we see Stane uses the meeting against BP.

That's the thing tho'. You can make a strategic mistake. This is poor judgment on T'Challa's part in meeting with them in the first place.

This only works because Coates has to set it up this way. It goes against everything about T'Challa. Coates saw the word monarchy and immediate thought bad ruler or dictator without getting to know about Wakanda or the Black Panther.

[Marvell2100]

What you guys seem to be ignoring is that, again, T'Challa has been King for a long time. It's not like he has never dealt with a coup before. Plus, knowing what we know about T'Challa, and how he cares about humanity, why would he EVER deal with despots? Plus continuity has shown all throughout his publication that he seeks the advice of his council and there there is a council on place that can run the day to day when he is away, so why would he go to despots, outsiders who don't know anything about Wakanda and people T'Challa would clearly see as evil men, for advice? what the frak do you think they would say? "Oh yeah just throw a banquet for the people and tell them everything thing will be sunshine and rainbows"

The whole despot thing was completely out of character, and given what Coates did with it. Was solely meant to tarnish T'Challa and make him look bad, simply because Coates story demanded to shade throw as much as possible. And yeah Coates tries to say it's hodaris idea, but a couple things. 1 T'Challa straight up would of said no. Wakanda has never Asked for help from outsiders and you think the first aid they will reach out for will be to despots for stopping a rebellion? Come-on.

Second, Coates turns around and has T'Challa show the truth about what happened.. and nothing changes, he still looks bad, changamire blame him for that still, and T'Challa just writes it off like "lol oops my bad".

Again Coates story would work for a new character with no history who's whole deal is that he was thrust into kingship, after his family members who proceeded him and had claim to the thrown were gone and he never had aspirations, or bothered, to learn how to rule, and his country was one that barely held itself together under a monarch. That's how out of touch with BP and Wakanda Coates is.

Simply put, Coates is pessimistic and doesn't like what Wakanda stands for and is supposed to represent and how took that view and showed an extremely contrived story into the BP mythos

True. Coates had to write T'Challa ooc for this to work and make Wakanda look really bad.

[dkrook]

People who are kings for a long time still make mistakes.

What Bro Ezyo is saying I believe is that no one king/leader is perfect in their every move. What we got from Coates was straight up misrepresentation and incoherent babble when all the previous historical narrative written on the characterization of T'challa is brought into consideration it shows the issue is far beyond is he a good leader, he was. He bred to be, raised to be, and even chosen by his god to be. Naw fam Coates just was doing garbage writing and character shading. Basic writer class will tell that your protagonist should never move through their entire arc with external circumstances a thing upon them without them ever showing power to impact or progress their own narrative. Showing the protagonist having some true agency.