Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[The Cool Thatguy]

No one ever picked up this thread ever since; it's like damn Wakanda is one of the African countries that fought off the colonial powers it's in their blood, yet over and over they show Wakanda getting invaded all the damn time

That's what happens when your main character is a king. You need to raise the stakes to threaten that which they care about.

Asgard gets invaded all the damn time. You don't see Thor complaining, do you

[chief12d]

Yeah....

Even "fans" forget this is a warrior nation first, technological powerhouse second, (maybe or maybe not progressive enlightened 3rd).

These events should be a chance for T'challa to stand up and go, "yo, you mofo's forgot what is in our DNA? We live for this shit"

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, Wakanda should be fictional (emphasis on fictional) Sparta. Getting a chance to die in glorious battle defending the homeland is a blessing from Bast.

This scholarly philosophy shit is for the birds. Wakanda is TINY. Their whole technology and philosophy should centered around war as a means of survival.

Agreed 100%. Wakanda is advanced and very sophisticated socially and philosophically. But they are a military power FIRST and that's something that needs to be highlighted more in his book and outside it.

Realistically speaking though, that requires an active attempt by editorial to protect the character. As T'Challa becomes more prominent, more threats are gonna come his way and Wakanda will nearly always be at risk. This happens for everyone of relevance at the Big 2, which is actually a good thing. That means more Black Panther.

But if it's not accompanied by a desire to make sure Wakanda doesn't get obliterated every other year then the push falls flat. And it's even worse if every Black Panther run is about T'Challa having to reevaluate why Wakanda loses or dealing with the fallout of another invasion.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As rough as Hickman was on T'Challa, he put the toys back in the box , leaving him back in his prime position as king. It was Coates that decided to dedicate the first 12 issues of his run to Wakanda tearing itself apart and questioning if T'Challa is a worthy king. If Wakanda MUST lose every other fight they get into, at the least Black Panther writers should straight up ignore bad showings outside the book.

I am almost 100% certain that the next Black Panther run will take Empyre into account. And if in Empyre we see Wakanda get decimated, I fully expect the next BP run to start off with T'Challa asking himself what went wrong, sparking a whole new cycle of self-loathing and deconstruction.

Writers don't know how to write T'Challa from a position of unapologetic strength and competence. He always needs to have his back against the wall or be dealing with his previous failures instead of carving out his own path.

[MindofShadow]

That's what happens when your main character is a king. You need to raise the stakes to threaten that which they care about.

Asgard gets invaded all the damn time. You don't see Thor complaining, do you

Thor shows up and smashes shit until he wins.

And you also don't get Asguardian citizens bitching about "thor bringing trouble." They just shut up and fight lol.

T'challa hasn't gotten that opportunity since SWAD. His kingdom just gets smashed for the benefit of other heroes.

Like I always said, I would gladly sacrfice Wakandan redshirts if T'challa himself benefits. But he never does.

Last time Wakanda looked formidable in a solo book was when the Hand tried attacking and Shuri basically laughed at the absurdity of it and slaughtered them. You had mom's pulling pieces out while pushing a stroller lol

[MindofShadow]

Agreed 100%. Wakanda is advanced and very sophisticated socially and philosophically. But they are a military power FIRST and that's something that needs to be highlighted more in his book and outside it.

Realistically speaking though, that requires an active attempt by editorial to protect the character. As T'Challa becomes more prominent, more threats are gonna come his way and Wakanda will nearly always be at risk. This happens for everyone of relevance at the Big 2, which is actually a good thing. That means more Black Panther.

But if it's not accompanied by a desire to make sure Wakanda doesn't get obliterated every other year then the push falls flat. And it's even worse if every Black Panther run is about T'Challa having to reevaluate why Wakanda loses or dealing with the fallout of another invasion.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As rough as Hickman was on T'Challa, he put the toys back in the box , leaving him back in his prime position as king. It was Coates that decided to dedicate the first 12 issues of his run to Wakanda tearing itself apart and questioning if T'Challa is a worthy king. If Wakanda MUST lose every other fight they get into, at the least Black Panther writers should straight up ignore bad showings outside the book.

I am almost 100% certain that the next Black Panther run will take Empyre into account. And if in Empyre we see Wakanda get decimated, I fully expect the next BP run to start off with T'Challa asking himself what went wrong, sparking a whole new cycle of self-loathing and deconstruction.

Writers don't know how to write T'Challa from a position of unapologetic strength and competence. He always needs to have his back against the wall or be dealing with his previous failures instead of carving out his own path.

Yep. The whole point of the second redo conversation with T'challa when called "king" by thta kid was the fact that T'challa said "Yes" instead of correcting him. T'challa was confident in his decisions at the very end and it all worked out

until Coates decided nope.

Writers don't know how to write T'Challa from a position of unapologetic strength and competence.

Hudlin's greatest strength of a writer was this. His T'challa was written as confident AF.

IDK though, I feel like "writers" is really just Coates and his buddies. You get that confidence from other writers imo. and other media such as cartoons and MCU.

[XPac]

No one ever picked up this thread ever since; it's like damn Wakanda is one of the African countries that fought off the colonial powers it's in their blood, yet over and over they show Wakanda getting invaded all the damn time

T'Challa being a B lister back in the day actually offered Wakanda some protection. Aliens don't bother invading limbo, which was where Wakanda often sat during events because T'Challa was out of the spotlight. But T'Challa being elevated to be an A lister effectively painted a bullseye on Wakanda.

It's not just him. Really the only time Namor is in an event (apart from being a warm body in the background) is when Atlantis is going to be destroyed. Asgard and Attilan haven't faired much better in recent years. Heck, you can argue Wakanda despite it's recent problems is probably in the best shape as far as fictional nations go.

[XPac]

Agreed 100%. Wakanda is advanced and very sophisticated socially and philosophically. But they are a military power FIRST and that's something that needs to be highlighted more in his book and outside it.

Realistically speaking though, that requires an active attempt by editorial to protect the character. As T'Challa becomes more prominent, more threats are gonna come his way and Wakanda will nearly always be at risk. This happens for everyone of relevance at the Big 2, which is actually a good thing. That means more Black Panther.

But if it's not accompanied by a desire to make sure Wakanda doesn't get obliterated every other year then the push falls flat. And it's even worse if every Black Panther run is about T'Challa having to reevaluate why Wakanda loses or dealing with the fallout of another invasion.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As rough as Hickman was on T'Challa, he put the toys back in the box , leaving him back in his prime position as king. It was Coates that decided to dedicate the first 12 issues of his run to Wakanda tearing itself apart and questioning if T'Challa is a worthy king. If Wakanda MUST lose every other fight they get into, at the least Black Panther writers should straight up ignore bad showings outside the book.

I am almost 100% certain that the next Black Panther run will take Empyre into account. And if in Empyre we see Wakanda get decimated, I fully expect the next BP run to start off with T'Challa asking himself what went wrong, sparking a whole new cycle of self-loathing and deconstruction.

Writers don't know how to write T'Challa from a position of unapologetic strength and competence. He always needs to have his back against the wall or be dealing with his previous failures instead of carving out his own path.

I think it's fair for T'Challa to question himself under certain circumstnaces though.

In AvX for example, it was likely T'Challa's decision to hide the Avengers in Wakanda. He placed Wakanda in jeopardy in order to protect the Avengers, and objectively speaking that was probably the right thing to do. Nonetheless, it did lead to Wakanda getting destroyed. And that's something which could have been avoided had he decided to leave Wakanda out of it. You can make a similar arguement with his decision to hide the Cabal in Wakanda. Had he not done that it's entirely possible Thanos would have not destroyed Wakanda. Again, the decision made sense at the time and was arguably the smart thing to do... but it placed Wakanda in danger and led to it being destroyed.

Anytime he's willingly putting Wakanda in the line of fire and getting burned, I think it's fair game to have a writer show him second guessing himself to some degree. I think he would actually look worse if he didn't shoulder some of that burden on himself.

[chief12d]

I think it's fair for T'Challa to question himself under certain circumstnaces though.

In AvX for example, it was likely T'Challa's decision to hide the Avengers in Wakanda. He placed Wakanda in jeopardy in order to protect the Avengers, and objectively speaking that was probably the right thing to do. Nonetheless, it did lead to Wakanda getting destroyed. And that's something which could have been avoided had he decided to leave Wakanda out of it. You can make a similar arguement with his decision to hide the Cabal in Wakanda. Had he not done that it's entirely possible Thanos would have not destroyed Wakanda. Again, the decision made sense at the time and was arguably the smart thing to do... but it placed Wakanda in danger and led to it being destroyed.

Anytime he's willingly putting Wakanda in the line of fire and getting burned, I think it's fair game to have a writer show him second guessing himself to some degree. I think he would actually look worse if he didn't shoulder some of that burden on himself.

Nah, I don't need that in my Black Panther comics. To be clear, I don't want an infallible guy who doesn't have moments of self-doubt or weakness. But those moments should be special and carry weight, not define him. Black Panther stories shouldn't be mired in an overindulgence of guilt that casts T'Challa as some sort of perpetually tragic figure. He's supposed to be almost scary in his single-mindedness to integrate Wakanda on the world stage while protecting his kingdom and the global peace.

No one is saying those two things should never conflict. In fact, they absolutely should in order to create compelling conflict. But if it always devolves into him not even wanting the throne or seeing his people as nothing more than a burden then it's a betrayal of the idealized warrior-king he's supposed to be. T'Challa deals with a lot of internal and external turmoil but the way certain writers manifest it is lazy.

Doubly so if it always takes place in the context of Wakanda getting invaded and him having to go through the motions of questioning himself. One 5-issue arc post-Secret Wars was acceptable. Wakanda got dragged through the mud and understandably there's some soul searching to do. But it's 2020 and T'Challa is still complaining about how he doesn't want to be king? How he still hasn't truly accepted the responsibilities it entails?

There's been no sense of movement for his character because writers (Coates and his associates) are committed to a deconstructive take on his character that exclusively focuses on his seemingly irredeemable failures to Wakanda. They haven't presented a T'Challa that's proactive in his heroism and can unashamedly engage with his people and the outside world with confidence. Like I said, this isn't about T'Challa questioning himself. It's about how the only story we've been getting is him being admonished for his past mistakes and constantly questioning if he's worthy.

T'Challa is going to sometimes put the world before Wakanda. Sometimes he'll do the opposite. It's a waste of time for there to be soliloquies about how one or the other is causing him some great crisis of conscious. It doesn't have to be like that every time he makes a choice. Especially if these choices aren't occurring in the Black Panther books proper. He's a comic book character and it shouldn't be that deep.

[chief12d]

Yep. The whole point of the second redo conversation with T'challa when called "king" by thta kid was the fact that T'challa said "Yes" instead of correcting him. T'challa was confident in his decisions at the very end and it all worked out

until Coates decided nope.



Hudlin's greatest strength of a writer was this. His T'challa was written as confident AF.

IDK though, I feel like "writers" is really just Coates and his buddies. You get that confidence from other writers imo. and other media such as cartoons and MCU.

As great as confident portrayals in other books are, if we're not seeing that in the solo it's all moot. The occasional good showing in Avengers and Conan won't sustain an A-lister or his fanbase. At a certain point editorial has to realize the core book needs talent willing to replicate those portrayals when the character is by himself, not teaming up or in an ensemble. The last thing you want for a character is "to be better in a team than solo". But I agree, T'Challa has gotten decent writing in other books, I just hope one of them takes enough interest to write at least 25+ issues with Black Panther.

[Ezyo1000]

Yeah....

Even "fans" forget this is a warrior nation first, technological powerhouse second, (maybe or maybe not progressive enlightened 3rd).

These events should be a chance for T'challa to stand up and go, "yo, you mofo's forgot what is in our DNA? We live for this shit"

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, Wakanda should be fictional (emphasis on fictional) Sparta. Getting a chance to die in glorious battle defending the homeland is a blessing from Bast.

This scholarly philosophy shit is for the birds. Wakanda is TINY. Their whole technology and philosophy should centered around war as a means of survival.

This so much this. It's why it makes me even more pissed that Marvel allowed Coates to turn them into asad sack of philosophical chumps then further solidified it by changing the history that it was the Orishas ™ that saved them from The originators and provided for them, and then had a warrior nation pray to frakkin Storm to save them. On top of S3 N'Jadaka being more concerned about Storm and frakkin Eden then T'Challa and Wakanda being the biggest threat to his empire.. like. What the frak?? How does the most badass warrior nation, who's repelled some of the most dangerous and deadly armies, survived apocalyptic alt realities, become so.. soft and weak

[Ezyo1000]

Agreed 100%. Wakanda is advanced and very sophisticated socially and philosophically. But they are a military power FIRST and that's something that needs to be highlighted more in his book and outside it.

Realistically speaking though, that requires an active attempt by editorial to protect the character. As T'Challa becomes more prominent, more threats are gonna come his way and Wakanda will nearly always be at risk. This happens for everyone of relevance at the Big 2, which is actually a good thing. That means more Black Panther.

But if it's not accompanied by a desire to make sure Wakanda doesn't get obliterated every other year then the push falls flat. And it's even worse if every Black Panther run is about T'Challa having to reevaluate why Wakanda loses or dealing with the fallout of another invasion.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As rough as Hickman was on T'Challa, he put the toys back in the box , leaving him back in his prime position as king. It was Coates that decided to dedicate the first 12 issues of his run to Wakanda tearing itself apart and questioning if T'Challa is a worthy king. If Wakanda MUST lose every other fight they get into, at the least Black Panther writers should straight up ignore bad showings outside the book.

I am almost 100% certain that the next Black Panther run will take Empyre into account. And if in Empyre we see Wakanda get decimated, I fully expect the next BP run to start off with T'Challa asking himself what went wrong, sparking a whole new cycle of self-loathing and deconstruction.

Writers don't know how to write T'Challa from a position of unapologetic strength and competence. He always needs to have his back against the wall or be dealing with his previous failures instead of carving out his own path.

Hickman was so. A good path with T'Challa until the end of tro and then sw showdown against Doom. Frankly I think he should of faired better against Doom and looked more dignified when the big reveal came.

Coates has been the biggest stain on the mythos, he can't write a strong Black Male because he himself harbors underlying dislike of himself. Hence why T'Challa and the male characters In His books can't do anything right. As for editorial? I agree, they need to protect Wakanda. It's the most technologically advanced nation on earth, straight up warrior nation that had a 10k undefeated streak and lost to Thanos only after Thanos army got beaten back and was on attempt number 3. Coates should of re-established Wakanda with a legit threat and then done something about SE to prevent the BS showing we got from there too. And all in all we need someone like Redjack to come in with love and appreciation for the character and a drive to take him higher. Dude broke records on the MCU side and the comics have done jack with that hype

[skyvolt2000]

Hudlin's greatest strength of a writer was this. His T'challa was written as confident AF.

IDK though, I feel like "writers" is really just Coates and his buddies. You get that confidence from other writers imo. and other media such as cartoons and MCU.

I'll repeat the same thing I have said to Storm fans and probably need to say it to Cyborg fans.

It does not matter how well you are done in other books or media-if you solo or the main book you are suppose to appear in treats you like crap.

Because that main book is suppose to be the book that sets up status quo.

You present a weak and crappy Black Panther in his own book-you actually hurt sales of other books. Because the fear is no one wants to read about a Panther that is bad in his book and might be in others.

That falls on editorial for letting that happen. And this is an annoying thread that seems to follow POC.

[MindofShadow]

Nah, I don't need that in my Black Panther comics. To be clear, I don't want an infallible guy who doesn't have moments of self-doubt or weakness. But those moments should be special and carry weight, not define him. Black Panther stories shouldn't be mired in an overindulgence of guilt that casts T'Challa as some sort of perpetually tragic figure. He's supposed to be almost scary in his single-mindedness to integrate Wakanda on the world stage while protecting his kingdom and the global peace.

No one is saying those two things should never conflict. In fact, they absolutely should in order to create compelling conflict. But if it always devolves into him not even wanting the throne or seeing his people as nothing more than a burden then it's a betrayal of the idealized warrior-king he's supposed to be. T'Challa deals with a lot of internal and external turmoil but the way certain writers manifest it is lazy.

Doubly so if it always takes place in the context of Wakanda getting invaded and him having to go through the motions of questioning himself. One 5-issue arc post-Secret Wars was acceptable. Wakanda got dragged through the mud and understandably there's some soul searching to do. But it's 2020 and T'Challa is still complaining about how he doesn't want to be king? How he still hasn't truly accepted the responsibilities it entails?

There's been no sense of movement for his character because writers (Coates and his associates) are committed to a deconstructive take on his character that exclusively focuses on his seemingly irredeemable failures to Wakanda. They haven't presented a T'Challa that's proactive in his heroism and can unashamedly engage with his people and the outside world with confidence. Like I said, this isn't about T'Challa questioning himself. It's about how the only story we've been getting is him being admonished for his past mistakes and constantly questioning if he's worthy.

T'Challa is going to sometimes put the world before Wakanda. Sometimes he'll do the opposite. It's a waste of time for there to be soliloquies about how one or the other is causing him some great crisis of conscious. It doesn't have to be like that every time he makes a choice. Especially if these choices aren't occurring in the Black Panther books proper. He's a comic book character and it shouldn't be that deep.

As great as confident portrayals in other books are, if we're not seeing that in the solo it's all moot. The occasional good showing in Avengers and Conan won't sustain an A-lister or his fanbase. At a certain point editorial has to realize the core book needs talent willing to replicate those portrayals when the character is by himself, not teaming up or in an ensemble. The last thing you want for a character is "to be better in a team than solo". But I agree, T'Challa has gotten decent writing in other books, I just hope one of them takes enough interest to write at least 25+ issues with Black Panther.

Oh I agree with this 100%.

I feel the team up writers actually GET who T'challa is... but at the same time have no real desire to "build" him. If that makes sense. He is just a cog to the machine. It doesn't help that the solo is so damn disconnected from anything happening in the MU.

Coates doesn't understand the character or his mythos at all. And none of his writer crew clan doesn't either. They wanted Black Panther and Wakanda to be something it isn't to fit what they wanted to write.

[Marvell2100]

Agreed 100%. Wakanda is advanced and very sophisticated socially and philosophically. But they are a military power FIRST and that's something that needs to be highlighted more in his book and outside it.

Realistically speaking though, that requires an active attempt by editorial to protect the character. As T'Challa becomes more prominent, more threats are gonna come his way and Wakanda will nearly always be at risk. This happens for everyone of relevance at the Big 2, which is actually a good thing. That means more Black Panther.

But if it's not accompanied by a desire to make sure Wakanda doesn't get obliterated every other year then the push falls flat. And it's even worse if every Black Panther run is about T'Challa having to reevaluate why Wakanda loses or dealing with the fallout of another invasion.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As rough as Hickman was on T'Challa, he put the toys back in the box , leaving him back in his prime position as king. It was Coates that decided to dedicate the first 12 issues of his run to Wakanda tearing itself apart and questioning if T'Challa is a worthy king. If Wakanda MUST lose every other fight they get into, at the least Black Panther writers should straight up ignore bad showings outside the book.

I am almost 100% certain that the next Black Panther run will take Empyre into account. And if in Empyre we see Wakanda get decimated, I fully expect the next BP run to start off with T'Challa asking himself what went wrong, sparking a whole new cycle of self-loathing and deconstruction.

Writers don't know how to write T'Challa from a position of unapologetic strength and competence. He always needs to have his back against the wall or be dealing with his previous failures instead of carving out his own path.

How do people think Wakanda has successfully defended itself for centuries? Through a philosophical debate? It's like alot of people don't want to see that side of Wakanda.

They pretty much turned Wakanda into Klingons - badass warrior race that doesn't really do anything.

[MindofShadow]

It's like alot of people don't want to see that side of Wakanda.

These are the same people that complained about the movie awarding the crown to whoever kicks ass.

A lot of people want Wakanda to be "black people utopia"... which means a non violent, uber progressive, intellectual types where nothign bad happens and everyone walks around in robes sipping tea.


This is Wakanda...






I mean... lol

[chief12d]

These are the same people that complained about the movie awarding the crown to whoever kicks ass.

A lot of people want Wakanda to be "black people utopia"... which means a non violent, uber progressive, intellectual types where nothign bad happens and everyone walks around in robes sipping tea.


This is Wakanda...






I mean... lol

I'd argue there's the other side of the coin as well. The people that like to see high and mighty Wakanda put in it's place. Like if T'Challa and Wakanda are too competent while at the same time being composed then it's a problem. I've seen people say they want MCU Wakandans to be more "savage" or "animal-like" and in the same sentence hope for Namor to be the sequel's villain and dethrone T'Challa.

There's definitely the people who don't ever want Wakanda getting it's hands dirty but there's also those who want nothing more than to see it lose.