Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[charliehustle415]

I don't think 'not on fire' constitutes a Utopia

LOL, I suppose so

Wakanda was on the verge of tribal civil war in Priests run. THey used 16 year old girls acting as political pawns to main stability. That I think falls a bit short of being utopia. Hudlin arguably retconned it into being far more utopian... but it wasn't always meant to be that.

But I agree... Wakanda is being used as a prop to show how tough someone else is. It's sort of equivalent to Galactus with cosmic beings. Once upon a time he was considered the uber big bad of the marvel universe... now he's used in cosmic events to job out to the new uber big bad.

In HINDSIGHT you can maybe argue that was the downside of propping up Wakanda as being this unconquered nation. It almost creates a bullseye.

I totally agree with this Wakanda has become a benchmark for writers to show how tough a character or group is - "like damn, X invaded Wakanda and beat the tar out of Black Panther

I know Utopias can seem boring I just think writers nowadays want to inject Western political follies on to Wakanda because Wakanda for whatever reason (I know why it's because the majority [if not all] of Black Panther writers have espouse Western ideologies) is seen as a hyper futurist version of a Western country, so it must have Western problems.

If a country never has been colonized and resisted colonial influence why would it have colonial issues? I get tired of seeing the constant idea that progress equals Western

[DigiCom]

I totally agree with this Wakanda has become a benchmark for writers to show how tough a character or group is - "like damn, X invaded Wakanda and beat the tar out of Black Panther

Worfkanda!

[Huntsman Spider]

LOL, I suppose so



I totally agree with this Wakanda has become a benchmark for writers to show how tough a character or group is - "like damn, X invaded Wakanda and beat the tar out of Black Panther

I know Utopias can seem boring I just think writers nowadays want to inject Western political follies on to Wakanda because Wakanda for whatever reason (I know why it's because the majority [if not all] of Black Panther writers have espouse Western ideologies) is seen as a hyper futurist version of a Western country, so it must have Western problems.

If a country never has been colonized and resisted colonial influence why would it have colonial issues? I get tired of seeing the constant idea that progress equals Western

Actually a very good insight there.

[dkrook]

LOL, I suppose so



I totally agree with this Wakanda has become a benchmark for writers to show how tough a character or group is - "like damn, X invaded Wakanda and beat the tar out of Black Panther

I know Utopias can seem boring I just think writers nowadays want to inject Western political follies on to Wakanda because Wakanda for whatever reason (I know why it's because the majority [if not all] of Black Panther writers have espouse Western ideologies) is seen as a hyper futurist version of a Western country, so it must have Western problems.

If a country never has been colonized and resisted colonial influence why would it have colonial issues? I get tired of seeing the constant idea that progress equals Western

Lol, it reminds me of action movies through late 80's and mid 90's where the main star always seemed to beat up a big, black guy to show off how tough he was.

[charliehustle415]

Actually a very good insight there.

I think currently the only writer that understands this is Hickman.

He has made Krakoa a truly alien society; it doesn't have a Western styled monarchy nor does it have a Western styled government.

The Quiet Council might be similar to a Roman Forum but that might be pushing the analogy.

The Crucible is similar to African & Eastern style Coming of Age ritual (minus the dying of course, however, in Hinduism there is a religious ceremony where a boy is born twice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvija)

Krakoa is so alien and foreign CBR had an entire article where they called the Crucible "sadistic & disgusting" https://www.cbr.com/the-x-men-rite-o...ic-disgusting/

And I hate to continue to harp on this, but why can't Wakanda have this deep world building Dawn of X has only been around for a year and we have all of this, but for Wakanda...?

[XPac]

I think currently the only writer that understands this is Hickman.

He has made Krakoa a truly alien society; it doesn't have a Western styled monarchy nor does it have a Western styled government.

The Quiet Council might be similar to a Roman Forum but that might be pushing the analogy.

The Crucible is similar to African & Eastern style Coming of Age ritual (minus the dying of course, however, in Hinduism there is a religious ceremony where a boy is born twice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvija)

Krakoa is so alien and foreign CBR had an entire article where they called the Crucible "sadistic & disgusting" https://www.cbr.com/the-x-men-rite-o...ic-disgusting/

And I hate to continue tp harp on this, but why can't Wakanda have this deep world building Dawn of X has only been around for a year and we have all of this, but for Wakanda...?

While I agree that Krakoa doesn't come off as a western styled government, I'm not sure we're supposed to think what they are doing is actually a good thing. So far it's kind of working... but it also seems pretty creepy and disturbing at times.

It almost comes off as an endorsement for western style government given how cult like it all seems at times.

But well deserved props to Hickman for his world building. No one right now does it better.

[charliehustle415]

While I agree that Krakoa doesn't come off as a western styled government, I'm not sure we're supposed to think what they are doing is actually a good thing. So far it's kind of working... but it also seems pretty creepy and disturbing at times.

It almost comes off as an endorsement for western style government given how cult like it all seems at times.

But well deserved props to Hickman for his world building. No one right now does it better.

And I think that's the point, it's only creepy and cult like through our Western lens and Western superiority

[Huntsman Spider]

I think currently the only writer that understands this is Hickman.

He has made Krakoa a truly alien society; it doesn't have a Western styled monarchy nor does it have a Western styled government.

The Quiet Council might be similar to a Roman Forum but that might be pushing the analogy.

The Crucible is similar to African & Eastern style Coming of Age ritual (minus the dying of course, however, in Hinduism there is a religious ceremony where a boy is born twice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvija)

Krakoa is so alien and foreign CBR had an entire article where they called the Crucible "sadistic & disgusting" https://www.cbr.com/the-x-men-rite-o...ic-disgusting/

And I hate to continue tp harp on this, but why can't Wakanda have this deep world building Dawn of X has only been around for a year and we have all of this, but for Wakanda...?

While I agree that Krakoa doesn't come off as a western styled government, I'm not sure we're supposed to think what they are doing is actually a good thing. So far it's kind of working... but it also seems pretty creepy and disturbing at times.

It almost comes off as an endorsement for western style government given how cult like it all seems at times.

But well deserved props to Hickman for his world building. No one right now does it better.

And I think that's the point, it's only creepy and cult like through our Western lens and Western superiority

All of this.

[XPac]

And I think that's the point, it's only creepy and cult like through our Western lens and Western superiority

That MAY be true. Then again if Krakoa ends up crashing and burning in the end, it'll actually prove our western lens was more accurate than the mutants in that we saw how messed up all this was a mile away while they didn't. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this actually turns out.

[Huntsman Spider]

That MAY be true. Then again if Krakoa ends up crashing and burning in the end, it'll actually prove our western lens was more accurate than the mutants in that we saw how messed up all this was a mile away while they didn't. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this actually turns out.

Personally, I wouldn't root for Krakoa to fail just yet, as the overarching point is to explore how people who've been oppressed and repressed by conventional (human) society for much if not most or all of their existence would finally have enough of it and make their own space to survive and thrive away from their oppressors and persecutors. It might be unsettling by "our" standards, but in light of how those standards made genocide widely acceptable if the people being subjected to it had the "wrong" gene sequence, I'm not sure those standards should be treated as the be-all, end-all of what a functional, much less ideal, society would look like.

To tie this back to Black Panther and Wakanda and what charliehustle was saying, Wakanda as a functional society doesn't have to look, sound, or act like a Western democracy. Considering the hypocrisies and other moral failings of Western democracies, it would mostly be for the better that Wakanda doesn't adopt those trappings, and same with Krakoa, since most of the people currently residing there were targeted for all-out extermination by their countries of origin --- many (if not most) of them being self-purported democracies. Again, not exactly something people should uphold as a template for what a good, functional society looks like.

[XPac]

Personally, I wouldn't root for Krakoa to fail just yet, as the overarching point is to explore how people who've been oppressed and repressed by conventional (human) society for much if not most or all of their existence would finally have enough of it and make their own space to survive and thrive away from their oppressors and persecutors. It might be unsettling by "our" standards, but in light of how those standards made genocide widely acceptable if the people being subjected to it had the "wrong" gene sequence, I'm not sure those standards should be treated as the be-all, end-all of what a functional --- much less ideal --- society would look like.

The minute Krakoa decided they had legal authority over every mutant on the planet (notably ones commiting crimes outside Krakoa), I rooted for Krakoa to fail. But I'm in no rush I think Hickman has a very long elaborate ride ahead of us which will likely span years, and I'm happy he is being given the time and space see it through.

It's no doubt a cool concent exploring some interesting ideas... but this is going to end up crashing and burning so hard it won't even be funny. IMO at least. We'll see.

[Marvell2100]

LOL, I suppose so



I totally agree with this Wakanda has become a benchmark for writers to show how tough a character or group is - "like damn, X invaded Wakanda and beat the tar out of Black Panther

I know Utopias can seem boring I just think writers nowadays want to inject Western political follies on to Wakanda because Wakanda for whatever reason (I know why it's because the majority [if not all] of Black Panther writers have espouse Western ideologies) is seen as a hyper futurist version of a Western country, so it must have Western problems.

If a country never has been colonized and resisted colonial influence why would it have colonial issues? I get tired of seeing the constant idea that progress equals Western

And a lot of readers buy into that belief. Hence, you get...

"Why isn't Wakanda a democracy?
Why does Wakanda have a king?
Why isn't T'Challa sleeping with the teenage Dora Milaje?(Like his name is T'Challa Epstein.)
How can he be a king and a superhero? The country should be falling apart!"

It doesn't help when the writer helps to contribute to that pattern of belief.

[charliehustle415]

The minute Krakoa decided they had legal authority over every mutant on the planet (notably ones commiting crimes outside Krakoa), I rooted for Krakoa to fail. But I'm in no rush I think Hickman has a very long elaborate ride ahead of us which will likely span years, and I'm happy he is being given the time and space see it through.

It's no doubt a cool concent exploring some interesting ideas... but this is going to end up crashing and burning so hard it won't even be funny. IMO at least. We'll see.

I took this as a parable of Israel as all Jews are children of Israel and have citizenship there if they so choose (Law of Return https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return)

Personally, I wouldn't root for Krakoa to fail just yet, as the overarching point is to explore how people who've been oppressed and repressed by conventional (human) society for much if not most or all of their existence would finally have enough of it and make their own space to survive and thrive away from their oppressors and persecutors. It might be unsettling by "our" standards, but in light of how those standards made genocide widely acceptable if the people being subjected to it had the "wrong" gene sequence, I'm not sure those standards should be treated as the be-all, end-all of what a functional, much less ideal, society would look like.

To tie this back to Black Panther and Wakanda and what charliehustle was saying, Wakanda as a functional society doesn't have to look, sound, or act like a Western democracy. Considering the hypocrisies and other moral failings of Western democracies, it would mostly be for the better that Wakanda doesn't adopt those trappings, and it would be the same with Krakoa, since most of the people currently residing there were targeted for all-out extermination by their countries of origin, many (if not most) being self-purported democracies.

This is my thinking as well why would a country like Wakanda adopt Western ideals is said ideals see Africans as inferior and need of "saving" from barbarism.

That's one of the things I found so odd with writers of Black Panther.

Wakanda should be alien as all hell with a culture and convention that is super foreign to Western eyes. Think of when Cortez set eyes on the great Pyramids of the Aztec, he must have lost his damned Spanish mind to see such feats built by "savages" this is the same awe that Wakanda should invoke.

[chief12d]

I'm amazed vibranium existed this long without anyone bothering to tell that story.

Really I think the closest we got was some sort of space mining colony in the Captain marvel book. But it wasn't any sort of origin story ... it was just there.

You'd think that with all the worldbuilding Coates attempted that this would be the big revelation to cap off his run. But given how there hasn't even been a hint towards the origin of vibranium, it's possible there's some editorial mandate that it remains a mystery. Kinda like Lcokjaw with the Inhumans, though I think even then they've hinted at him initially being humanoid.

We didn't want him in the driver's seat for the first issue of this event at least, as the Avengers with Tony driving ended up in a car wreck.

But now I think it very possible Tchalla will play a much bigger role. We know he seemingly gets Teddys sword, and that seems to be a big deal.

Yea, he lucked out in that instance. But I think it was implied Tony was being mentally influenced so I can't be too hard on him lol. T'Challa will probably have his moments through the event. I'm happy with what we've gotten so far and look forward to how Ewing handles him.

[Marvell2100]

You'd think that with all the worldbuilding Coates attempted that this would be the big revelation to cap off his run. But given how there hasn't even been a hint towards the origin of vibranium, it's possible there's some editorial mandate that it remains a mystery. Kinda like Lcokjaw with the Inhumans, though I think even then they've hinted at him initially being humanoid.

Yea, he lucked out in that instance. But I think it was implied Tony was being mentally influenced so I can't be too hard on him lol. T'Challa will probably have his moments through the event. I'm happy with what we've gotten so far and look forward to how Ewing handles him.

Fingers-crossed.

It's surprising that the Skrulls don't have some grudge against T'Challa after SWaD. If I ran into the person who thoroughly kicked a Skrull armadas' ass, I'd either be mad as hell or scared to see him, lol.