Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[MindofShadow]

What I still don't understand is why did he have T'Challa get into a fist fight with Doom when he had the Infinity Gauntlet? He could have done a better job of "distracting" Doom than just throwing fists.

if I am remembering correctly, they didn't fist fight until the last blow.

After T'challa tried to freeze the due and namor kill him, doom and tchalla fought "like god's do" and did some weird fisticuff stuff lol

[MindofShadow]

Exactly, the conflicted T'Challa we got made perfect sense. The decision to destroy billions to save his kingdom was the biggest choice he had to make in his entire publication history. The idea that he also had to work with the man that flooded his capital was interesting too, but ultimately his refusal to do what needed to be done in both cases was inconsistent with the T'Challa we had seen with Priest and Hudlin.

Those were literally the two biggest subplots for his character in that run and he failed at both, miserably at that. And look at the end results: disowned by his ancestors, dead sister, Wakanda obliterated, failed to get revenge, his contributions to the saving of the multiverse a footnote in the story of Reed and Doom. He looked cool but failing in style is still failing.

And it all comes down to Hickman's "plot is god" writing. T'Challa didn't destroy that Earth because the writer needed Namor to join the Cabal. He didn't kill Namor because Hickman wanted them to work together to distract Doom so Reed could save the day. He didn't even give T'Challa enough agency to pull the trigger and destroy Atlantis, Shuri made that call and looked like the badass while doing it. I'd even go as far as saying that the "moral to a fault" characterization Coates is using with T'Challa now has it's roots in the way he was written during New Avengers.

Hickman had the "aura" around T'challa nailed and 99% of the time nailed his general demeanor. He felt like a king, felt like a giant under Hickman.

But, Hickman utterly failed in all the fine details when it really matter. In the big moments that really really really mattered, T'challa fell extremely flat.

[XPac]

Whether or not we as fans would've liked it is a separate discussion from what makes sense in the story. I agree it would've sucked to see T'Challa slaughter billions. But it was be entirely in character for him to do so based off prior portrayals. And considering how got disgraced by his father as he sniveled on the ground and looked like an an idiot when Namor did what he couldn't, I'd be 100% in support of him having that blood on his hands if that never happened.

Is it in character for him to murder billions of lives even if it's necessary? He normally doesn't even kill his rogues gallery, let alone innocent people.

I think it's similar to Batman in that he has a pretty mean poker face... but to a degree it's a bluff. He'll threaten to wipe out Nakias tribe... but that doesn't actually mean he'll do it. But maybe I'm missing stuff... has his actions resulted in innocent people being killed by him in a sort of ends justify the means sort of way? Because again, it's not all that common for him to even kill his rogues (I guess with the exception of Klaw, who can repeatedly be killed as often as you want).

[Vordan]

Whether or not we as fans would've liked it is a separate discussion from what makes sense in the story. I agree it would've sucked to see T'Challa slaughter billions. But it was be entirely in character for him to do so based off prior portrayals. And considering how got disgraced by his father as he sniveled on the ground and looked like an an idiot when Namor did what he couldn't, I'd be 100% in support of him having that blood on his hands if that never happened.

You’d really take T’Challa nuking a planet over the crime falling on Namor? Namor can do that because he’s a villain as often as he’s a hero. But once you’ve done something like that, I don’t know how you could go back to being on the Avengers and what not. Look at how much **** Scarlet Witch still gets for M-Day, T’Challa killing an Earth would be that x100. His nobility would be dust. T’Challa should’ve gotten more feats imo, but at the end we see him at his most triumphant he’s been. That Coates took Interstellar Wakanda and made it evil was his choice, not Hickman’s.

[Snoop Dogg]

"I want my fav to murder billions" is certainly a take.

[XPac]

You’d really take T’Challa nuking a planet over the crime falling on Namor? Namor can do that because he’s a villain as often as he’s a hero. But once you’ve done something like that, I don’t know how you could go back to being on the Avengers and what not. Look at how much **** Scarlet Witch still gets for M-Day, T’Challa killing an Earth would be that x100. His nobility would be dust. T’Challa should’ve gotten more feats imo, but at the end we see him at his most triumphant he’s been. That Coates took Interstellar Wakanda and made it evil was his choice, not Hickman’s.

No matter how much sense it makes for a hero to murder billions of innocent lives, just don't go there. It's just not worth it.

If people online wanna question T'Challa for it, so be it ... but murdering billions of innocent lives will taint that character in a way they may not recover from for decades, if ever. Better to just not go there. I think MOST readers will understand a hero not wanting to murder billions of innocent people regardless of the situation. Thats an easier bullet to take.

[Devaishwarya]

Frankly I don't see why the average Wakandan soldier isn't decked out like in ewings ultimates. They got a vibranium shield, a combat knife, a gun on their waist, and they look futuristic while keeping to their African roots

Sigh...such lovely memories.
I want Ewing on Black Panther when they recover from Coates-19

[chief12d]

Is it in character for him to murder billions of lives even if it's necessary? He normally doesn't even kill his rogues gallery, let alone innocent people.

I think it's similar to Batman in that he has a pretty mean poker face... but to a degree it's a bluff. He'll threaten to wipe out Nakias tribe... but that doesn't actually mean he'll do it. But maybe I'm missing stuff... has his actions resulted in innocent people being killed by him in a sort of ends justify the means sort of way? Because again, it's not all that common for him to even kill his rogues (I guess with the exception of Klaw, who can repeatedly be killed as often as you want).

When he crashed the global economy during the Priest run Killmonger comments on how T'Challa was exacerbating poverty across the world and causing children to die. T'Challa had no issue killing Bruce when in Immortal Hulk it looked like he could be a planetary threat, even though the Avengers were under the assumption it wasn't his fault for acting out. And T'Challa withholds stuff like climate reversal tech because he knows they'll be turned into weapons, allowing the suffering of billions.

If it came down to it, if T'Challa had to pick an Earth to die, his or another, he'd pick another if he was confident there was no other way around it. Hell, Hickman had him straight up give up and spend his last moments sleeping with Storm instead of finding out a way to at least avoid another incursion. There's an argument to be made T'Challa absolutely would kill billions if Wakanda was on the line. And since he'd not only be saving Wakanda but all of Earth 616 I think it's a certainty.

[skyvolt2000]

"I want my fav to murder billions" is certainly a take.

John Stewart has been held hostage by that for more than 30 years. Xanshi anybody????

Hal hurt and killed countless Green Lantern when he went nuts. Folks forgot all about that with him.

While John been defined by that Xanshi incident.

[chief12d]

John Stewart has been held hostage by that for more than 30 years. Xanshi anybody????

Hal hurt and killed countless Green Lantern when he went nuts. Folks forgot all about that with him.

While John been defined by that Xanshi incident.

That's what I'm saying. T'Challa killing one planet isn't that big a deal and can easily be ignored afterwards as a moment of unbelievable desperation. That's not the same thing as Scarlet Witch going insane or Tony and Reed locking up their friends in the Negative Zone. Hell, there are people who consider Namor a hero for what he did.

And in that moment, he was because like it or not there was no alternative. Doesn't mean he's still not an ******* but he was the only one with the guts to do what needed to be done, when history shows T'Challa should've been able to do it too. Especially when the alternative is getting disgraced by his ancestors and looking like a fool when Namor got to save the day and drop the bomb he destroyed Wakanda AGAIN.

[Blind Wedjat]

T'Challa refusing to kill billions was not the problem. I don't even think Priest's T'Challa would have done that. He could be ruthless or have a cold demeanour but he also strived to avoid needless violence and death at all costs.

T'Challa being scolded and disowned by his father and ancestors for not killing billions was the problem. That was unnecessary and I've complained about taking both T'Chaka's and T'Challa's patriotism into extreme nationalism all to prove a point or teach a lesson.

There are tough questions to be asked about Wakanda's isolationism, and I know Hickman was attempting to tackle nihilism on a cosmic scale so I'm not against the story or even the circumstances. T'Challa refusing to end life indiscriminately is what separates him from Namor, Magneto or Doom. I don't think that is something his father should even shame him for.

[XPac]

When he crashed the global economy during the Priest run Killmonger comments on how T'Challa was exacerbating poverty across the world and causing children to die. T'Challa had no issue killing Bruce when in Immortal Hulk it looked like he could be a planetary threat, even though the Avengers were under the assumption it wasn't his fault for acting out. And T'Challa withholds stuff like climate reversal tech because he knows they'll be turned into weapons, allowing the suffering of billions.

If it came down to it, if T'Challa had to pick an Earth to die, his or another, he'd pick another if he was confident there was no other way around it. Hell, Hickman had him straight up give up and spend his last moments sleeping with Storm instead of finding out a way to at least avoid another incursion. There's an argument to be made T'Challa absolutely would kill billions if Wakanda was on the line. And since he'd not only be saving Wakanda but all of Earth 616 I think it's a certainty.

Even when they killed Bruce, they knew that he could come back to life. And killing a threat in the middle of combat is an entirely different thing that murdering innocent people.

As far as him allowing billions to suffer by withholding climate reversal tech.. frankly super heroes in general without things which can resolve real world problems. I don't doubt Reed could just as easily create climate reversal tech, or solve any number of other problems. Pym particles to end world hunger in a week and a half. If you don't overlook this with suspenions of belief, yes super heroes allow a lot of suffering and death to occur that they could easily resolve. But because comics try to make their world look like the one outside our window, they normally refrain from super heroes resolving real life problems. Ideally writers want to try and NOT highlight this fact so that the heroes don't look so bad ... but strangely BP writers tend to for some reason.

I'll certainly agree T'Challa is more willing to do more morally questionable actions than a lot of his peers. He's not Steve Rogers. But I think everything you mentioned is a whole other level than murdering billions of innocent lives. He's more likely to do it than most heroes... but I think it's still entirely believale that he woudn't. To me at least. Really almost anyone in that situation would struggle with it. I doubt Namor had an easy time with it, and he's committed mass murder before.

[XPac]

T'Challa refusing to kill billions was not the problem. I don't even think Priest's T'Challa would have done that. He could be ruthless or have a cold demeanour but he also strived to avoid needless violence and death at all costs.

T'Challa being scolded and disowned by his father and ancestors for not killing billions was the problem. That was unnecessary and I've complained about taking both T'Chaka's and T'Challa's patriotism into extreme nationalism all to prove a point or teach a lesson.

There are tough questions to be asked about Wakanda's isolationism, and I know Hickman was attempting to tackle nihilism on a cosmic scale so I'm not against the story or even the circumstances. T'Challa refusing to end life indiscriminately is what separates him from Namor, Magneto or Doom. I don't think that is something his father should even shame him for.

I can buy T'Chaka and the other BP's yelling at him over not pulling the trigger at that point.

From T'Chaka's perspecitve Wakanda, his wife and his daughter were about to be murdered. T'Challa had the means to stop it, but he couldn't go through with it. While it's inherently understandable that T'Challa couldn't, from T'Chaka's standpoint his people and his family were about to die at T'Challa as far as he could tell was the only one willing to stop it. So his reaction to T'Challa not pulling the trigger under these circumstances was understandable too.

I don't think there's any wrong side to this, which was the point. It was understandable that T'Challa didn't want to murder billions of innocent people, but it was also understandable that T'Chaka was upset that his son was willing to condem their people and family (and the rest of the universe) to death because of his unwillingness to compromise his principals.

[Marvell2100]

T'Challa refusing to kill billions was not the problem. I don't even think Priest's T'Challa would have done that. He could be ruthless or have a cold demeanour but he also strived to avoid needless violence and death at all costs.

T'Challa being scolded and disowned by his father and ancestors for not killing billions was the problem. That was unnecessary and I've complained about taking both T'Chaka's and T'Challa's patriotism into extreme nationalism all to prove a point or teach a lesson.

There are tough questions to be asked about Wakanda's isolationism, and I know Hickman was attempting to tackle nihilism on a cosmic scale so I'm not against the story or even the circumstances. T'Challa refusing to end life indiscriminately is what separates him from Namor, Magneto or Doom. I don't think that is something his father should even shame him for.

Exactly. I didn't want T'Challa murdering billions either. But I also didn't want the Black Philosopher when it came time to hold Atlantis accountable for their actions either.

And you're definitely on point about the former Black Panthers criticizing T'Challa for not blowing up planets, particularly criticism from his own father. How can they even go their when T'Chaka raised T'Challa better than that?

The more you look at the whole story arc, the more you realize that T'Challa was the most compromised character in TRO.

[Marvell2100]

if I am remembering correctly, they didn't fist fight until the last blow.

After T'challa tried to freeze the due and namor kill him, doom and tchalla fought "like god's do" and did some weird fisticuff stuff lol

I still think that was the least imaginative use of an Infinity Gauntlet.