Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[MindofShadow]

T'Challa refusing to kill billions was not the problem. I don't even think Priest's T'Challa would have done that. He could be ruthless or have a cold demeanour but he also strived to avoid needless violence and death at all costs.

T'Challa being scolded and disowned by his father and ancestors for not killing billions was the problem. That was unnecessary and I've complained about taking both T'Chaka's and T'Challa's patriotism into extreme nationalism all to prove a point or teach a lesson.

There are tough questions to be asked about Wakanda's isolationism, and I know Hickman was attempting to tackle nihilism on a cosmic scale so I'm not against the story or even the circumstances. T'Challa refusing to end life indiscriminately is what separates him from Namor, Magneto or Doom. I don't think that is something his father should even shame him for.

Hell, id allow T'chaka to be pissed. Frankly, I don't relaly give a shit about him much lol

But I would have expected T'challa to stand up to him, not collapse in tears like a punk

[XPac]

Hell, id allow T'chaka to be pissed. Frankly, I don't relaly give a shit about him much lol

But I would have expected T'challa to stand up to him, not collapse in tears like a punk

The reason he didn't stand up to T'Chaka is because he frankly knew T'Chaka was actually 100% right.

Wakanda, his mother, his sister, Storm and all his friends were about to die and he had the power to prevent it . But he understandably could not compromise his principals to save their lives. Given the situation, I think both T'CHalla and T'Challa have every right to lose it.

[4sake Baned]

Exactly, the conflicted T'Challa we got made perfect sense. The decision to destroy billions to save his kingdom was the biggest choice he had to make in his entire publication history. The idea that he also had to work with the man that flooded his capital was interesting too, but ultimately his refusal to do what needed to be done in both cases was inconsistent with the T'Challa we had seen with Priest and Hudlin.

Those were literally the two biggest subplots for his character in that run and he failed at both, miserably at that. And look at the end results: disowned by his ancestors, dead sister, Wakanda obliterated, failed to get revenge, his contributions to the saving of the multiverse a footnote in the story of Reed and Doom. He looked cool but failing in style is still failing.

And it all comes down to Hickman's "plot is god" writing. T'Challa didn't destroy that Earth because the writer needed Namor to join the Cabal. He didn't kill Namor because Hickman wanted them to work together to distract Doom so Reed could save the day. He didn't even give T'Challa enough agency to pull the trigger and destroy Atlantis, Shuri made that call and looked like the badass while doing it. I'd even go as far as saying that the "moral to a fault" characterization Coates is using with T'Challa now has it's roots in the way he was written during New Avengers.

This why I’m fine with Hickman not righting BP/Wakanda againShe’d end up at some point end up jobbing the Either concept either concept to Reed, Doom, Namor or Whoever else at the moment he liked better at the moment of the plot..

[4sake Baned]

You’d really take T’Challa nuking a planet over the crime falling on Namor? Namor can do that because he’s a villain as often as he’s a hero. But once you’ve done something like that, I don’t know how you could go back to being on the Avengers and what not. Look at how much **** Scarlet Witch still gets for M-Day, T’Challa killing an Earth would be that x100. His nobility would be dust. T’Challa should’ve gotten more feats imo, but at the end we see him at his most triumphant he’s been. That Coates took Interstellar Wakanda and made it evil was his choice, not Hickman’s.

I would be fine with it (Shoulder Shrug) 🤷🏿*♂️

[Ezyo1000]

Hickman writes for plot and T'Challa was just another cog in the machine for telling the story of Reed and Doom. He had the aura of a heavy hitter but often fell short where it really counted. His Shuri on the other hand was excellent, even if it was basically Hudlin's T'Challa with breasts lol.

But there's no denying his T'Challa got decent feats and commanded respect so I'd hesitantly welcome Hickman taking on Black Panther, especially since sales would be great and it'd have relevance to the wider MU.

But I highly doubt he's interested in doing a solo completely centered around Black Panther and that once he's done with X-Men he'll migrate over to DC.

Yeah there are things that Hickman fell Short on. I. Salty AF we didn't see the BD fight, the empty promise to kill Namor (though in my head Canon I like to think he purposefully directed god dooms blast into Namor) and I think it was a missed opportunity to not show Namor and T'Challa whooping their respective opponents asses (the justice league analogues) during maximus King speech instead of just BB. But at the very least his BP did isht on his own and wasn't a completely pathetic husk

What I still don't understand is why did he have T'Challa get into a fist fight with Doom when he had the Infinity Gauntlet? He could have done a better job of "distracting" Doom than just throwing fists.

He should have been employing multiple strategies and coming at Doom from different angles. Instead it was an MMA bout.

But yes, he was still miles ahead of the Panther Coates put out.

Well to start the fight at first was supposed to be more abstract and 'god like' instead of a straight up fist fight so there's that.

I would of been satisfied if these happened:

1 Doom was more battered and bloodied after the fight.
2 T'Challa was standing (in defiance, though it's clear he can't fight anymore) at the end of the fight
3 Doom acknowledges T'Challas spirit and willpower despite the massive power difference.

It really left a bad taste in my mouth to see T'Challa beaten and broken at dooms feet... Again

[MindofShadow]

Shit that has me groan from Hickman:

- T'challa not telling Shuri. I mean, come on, that had no problem with Black Bolt inviting his insane villain brother to the party
- T'challa on his knees crying like a punk to his dad
- T'challa waiting til Namor wakes up to blow the planet. I mean, wtf was that? That was WAY out of character
- T'challa and Namor squashing a 4 year beef off panel
- T'challa on his knees to Doom


To be frank though, you have T'challa kill Namor 1v1 in a figh tthat takes up 15 pages and i would have forgiven the rest. Not having T'challa make true on his threat from issues 2 was unforgivable. you can't foreshadow that and not deliver and then not even make it worthwhile for those two to work together. Namor contributed nothing in Secret War but a couple one liners

[Cville]

I'm in the kill billions camp. I dont need Tchalla to be hero for the world or universe, just be a hero for Wakanda. If its between his Wakanda(not that space place) and billions, them billions just going to have to go.

[Snoop Dogg]

The Black Panther is a superhero published by Marvel Comics.

[Ezyo1000]

T'Challa refusing to kill billions was not the problem. I don't even think Priest's T'Challa would have done that. He could be ruthless or have a cold demeanour but he also strived to avoid needless violence and death at all costs.

T'Challa being scolded and disowned by his father and ancestors for not killing billions was the problem. That was unnecessary and I've complained about taking both T'Chaka's and T'Challa's patriotism into extreme nationalism all to prove a point or teach a lesson.

There are tough questions to be asked about Wakanda's isolationism, and I know Hickman was attempting to tackle nihilism on a cosmic scale so I'm not against the story or even the circumstances. T'Challa refusing to end life indiscriminately is what separates him from Namor, Magneto or Doom. I don't think that is something his father should even shame him for.

I would Take it a step further and say I don't even doubt his father and ancestors WOULD shame him for it. However, in character T'Challa would NOT break down on tear he would of been resolved in his decision and held firm to his belief nd stood up to his father and ancestors. Not cry like a child. THAT is the T'Challa we have seen again and again, he has never broken down and cried ever and that was a stupid addition

[Marvell2100]

Shit that has me groan from Hickman:

- T'challa not telling Shuri. I mean, come on, that had no problem with Black Bolt inviting his insane villain brother to the party
- T'challa on his knees crying like a punk to his dad
- T'challa waiting til Namor wakes up to blow the planet. I mean, wtf was that? That was WAY out of character
- T'challa and Namor squashing a 4 year beef off panel
- T'challa on his knees to Doom


To be frank though, you have T'challa kill Namor 1v1 in a figh tthat takes up 15 pages and i would have forgiven the rest. Not having T'challa make true on his threat from issues 2 was unforgivable. you can't foreshadow that and not deliver and then not even make it worthwhile for those two to work together. Namor contributed nothing in Secret War but a couple one liners

Yup. Did T'Challa really need Namor there at the end when he faced Doom? What did Namor offer? He didn't last 5 seconds.

BP should have killed Namor face to face and made sure that he was dead.

[Ezyo1000]

Sigh...such lovely memories.
I want Ewing on Black Panther when they recover from Coates-19

I dunno, Ewing isn't impressing me at all with his showing of T'Challa in empyre right now... But I will agree that I want rocaforts art again on a BP book as well as that design for the Wakandan army

[XPac]

Shit that has me groan from Hickman:

- T'challa not telling Shuri. I mean, come on, that had no problem with Black Bolt inviting his insane villain brother to the party
- T'challa on his knees crying like a punk to his dad
- T'challa waiting til Namor wakes up to blow the planet. I mean, wtf was that? That was WAY out of character
- T'challa and Namor squashing a 4 year beef off panel
- T'challa on his knees to Doom


To be frank though, you have T'challa kill Namor 1v1 in a figh tthat takes up 15 pages and i would have forgiven the rest. Not having T'challa make true on his threat from issues 2 was unforgivable. you can't foreshadow that and not deliver and then not even make it worthwhile for those two to work together. Namor contributed nothing in Secret War but a couple one liners

I had no problem with T'Challa not involving Shuri. To me that was completely in character.

T'Challa was essentially in a course of action where he was going to literally destroy entire planets and murder billions of innocent lives. Why drag his sister and Wakanda into that? If he absolutely NEEDED her help that would be one thing ... but he didn't. From his perspective it's better that he shoulder that than drag Wakanda and his family into it. He didn't need her, and Wakanda doesn't need to be stuck with the responsibility of murdering billions of innocent people.

[Marvell2100]

I'm in the kill billions camp. I dont need Tchalla to be hero for the world or universe, just be a hero for Wakanda. If its between his Wakanda(not that space place) and billions, them billions just going to have to go.

I don't want BP saddled with that. Look what happened to Bishop. He goes around killing billions upon billions to kill a kid.

They ruined this guy and he was unusable for years. Bishop was a low profile character. Imagine what would have happened with BP.

[chief12d]

Even when they killed Bruce, they knew that he could come back to life. And killing a threat in the middle of combat is an entirely different thing that murdering innocent people.

As far as him allowing billions to suffer by withholding climate reversal tech.. frankly super heroes in general without things which can resolve real world problems. I don't doubt Reed could just as easily create climate reversal tech, or solve any number of other problems. Pym particles to end world hunger in a week and a half. If you don't overlook this with suspenions of belief, yes super heroes allow a lot of suffering and death to occur that they could easily resolve. But because comics try to make their world look like the one outside our window, they normally refrain from super heroes resolving real life problems. Ideally writers want to try and NOT highlight this fact so that the heroes don't look so bad ... but strangely BP writers tend to for some reason.

I'll certainly agree T'Challa is more willing to do more morally questionable actions than a lot of his peers. He's not Steve Rogers. But I think everything you mentioned is a whole other level than murdering billions of innocent lives. He's more likely to do it than most heroes... but I think it's still entirely believale that he woudn't. To me at least. Really almost anyone in that situation would struggle with it. I doubt Namor had an easy time with it, and he's committed mass murder before.

I'm not saying those instances of T'Challa killing innocents or allowing them to die is the same as blowing up a planet. They do however establish a pattern of behavior for him being willing to make a decision like that. There was no conceivable way to save both Earths with the limited time they had left and I don't think it gels with what we'd seen of him in other books to knowingly let two planets die.

But as others have said, it's the groveling in front of his father and then him getting mad at Namor "making choices for him" that really make that scene so out of character. Then he gives up and decides he'll spend his last moments with Storm, content to let Earth-616 die in the next incursion. I guess one can argue that T'Challa is enough of a hero to not kill billions and that Hickman prefers a more idealistic take on him, but I think the way it was executed left much to be desired either way.

[XPac]

Yup. Did T'Challa really need Namor there at the end when he faced Doom? What did Namor offer? He didn't last 5 seconds.

BP should have killed Namor face to face and made sure that he was dead.

I think the point of the story was that T'Challa and Namor wisely decided to stop trying to kill each other and instead work together for the greater good. Heroes have a funny knack of doing that in stories like this. You can try and kill each other AFTER you save the multiverse if you really want too... but saving the multiverse should come first.