Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[chief12d]

A friend and I were having a discussion about the MCU. I say let the movie universe evolve in ways you don’t see in the comics. Make someone else the Black Panther. Move on from Stark, Rogers, & Thor. Tell great stories with their replacements. I’d love to see that in comics. My friend, who’s more of an old school 80’s comic guy, says give Panther a rest but replace Chadwick as T’challa eventually. He’s also a fan of rebooting one day. I HATE that idea. Let everything play out realistically. I’m more interested in the stories than I am one version of a character. Let Shuri be the new Black Panther. That growth is will make the MCU more interesting down the road.

I think the crucial difference here is that unlike Stark or Rogers, T’Challa’s story is incomplete. The first film clearly set up relevant plots relating to T’Challa’s inner turmoil to be a good man or good king, the ramifications of revealing Wakanda, his romance with Nakia, etc. That’s not even getting into the likely roles he would’ve had in being a leading Avenger, member of the Illuminati, and his inevitable rivalry with other Marvel kings like Namor and Doctor Doom.

His was a story that like Thor’s was supposed to stretch the span of a decade, or at least close to it. Boseman’s passing is tragic but I think Marvel would be doing a disservice to the character of T’Challa and his millions of fans if they shafted these stories and elevated Shuri to the throne. Especially when it’s clear she’s not ready yet. Short of a retcon that reveals she was in fact alive and training during those 5 years, there’s little to no evidence that Shuri has what it takes to be the fighter the mantle demands her to be. It simply doesn’t make narrative sense for her to be Black Panther without radically altering what it’s supposed to be about.

I think Shuri deserves her time. But like Falcon, Ironheart, and Jane-Thor, she should wait for the originator of the mantle to get his dues on the big screen. T’Challa (not Shuri) is the first major black superhero in comics. He’s the dude that held the title for literal decades and is leading the current Avengers. He’s the one that was part of one of the greatest Marvel events in history, Secret Wars. He’s worth recasting to get the full breadth of his character and then Shuri can take the foundation he established and go her own way. I’m all for evolving the MCU, but only if the original characters get their stories told to their conclusion.

[H-E-D]

Have a couple of seats with your tone, I definitely don't attack folk in here, anyone posting in here i consider Panther family, if there was misunderstanding it's all good, I might have missed your earlier post and not connected your full train of thought. It does happen sometimes.

My apologies. I intended my tone to match yours; it seems I misread that. That's my error. Apologies for getting defensive, and thank you for being the cooler head here.

[XPac]

I think the crucial difference here is that unlike Stark or Rogers, T’Challa’s story is incomplete. The first film clearly set up relevant plots relating to T’Challa’s inner turmoil to be a good man or good king, the ramifications of revealing Wakanda, his romance with Nakia, etc. That’s not even getting into the likely roles he would’ve had in being a leading Avenger, member of the Illuminati, and his inevitable rivalry with other Marvel kings like Namor and Doctor Doom.

His was a story that like Thor’s was supposed to stretch the span of a decade, or at least close to it. Boseman’s passing is tragic but I think Marvel would be doing a disservice to the character of T’Challa and his millions of fans if they shafted these stories and elevated Shuri to the throne. Especially when it’s clear she’s not ready yet. Short of a retcon that reveals she was in fact alive and training during those 5 years, there’s little to no evidence that Shuri has what it takes to be the fighter the mantle demands her to be. It simply doesn’t make narrative sense for her to be Black Panther without radically altering what it’s supposed to be about.

I think Shuri deserves her time. But like Falcon, Ironheart, and Jane-Thor, she should wait for the originator of the mantle to get his dues on the big screen. T’Challa (not Shuri) is the first major black superhero in comics. He’s the dude that held the title for literal decades and is leading the current Avengers. He’s the one that was part of one of the greatest Marvel events in history, Secret Wars. He’s worth recasting to get the full breadth of his character and then Shuri can take the foundation he established and go her own way. I’m all for evolving the MCU, but only if the original characters get their stories told to their conclusion.

It wouldn't take a retcon (or much of one) ... just a flash back. Similar to the Rey and Leia flashbacks in Rise of the Skywalker, they can simply say T'Challa was trainer her this whole time. Which frankly is what he should have been doing anyways after the Killmonger incident.

The thing is, we never got any tangible evidence that Shuri can't fight at all ... just that she doesn't want to and that no one felt she could beat Killmonger. For what it's worth she did show up in the frontlines to fight alongside the Avengers in End Game. Granted she was fighting with lasers than a spear... but it arguably doesn't make sense to send your princess to the front lines of a battle like that if she can't at least handle herself to some degree.

Shuri should be able to fight, and she should be able to rule if it's necessary. And I'm not even saying that as an arguement for her taking the BP mante (something I am for the record fairly neutral about). As a matter of logical storytelling, the royal family should have prepared her for this. If they didn't prior to the Killmonger uprising, they dam well should prepare her afterwards. The Royal family, and the writers are frankly doing her character a diservice otherwise.

[chief12d]

Outside of a brief scene with her using a spear in the first film there’s nothing to indicate Shuri is very experienced with hand to hand combat. In virtually every combat situation she’s been shown using blasters, which isn’t to say that she can’t do martial arts, just that it’s obvious that’s not what she’s comfortable doing. She’s a mid-long range fighter who can handle herself momentarily in hand to hand. Against top tier combatants like Killmonger, clearly she’s not even a threat when it comes to martial arts.

The events of the first Black Panther happened back in 2016 a week after Civil War. Let’s be generous and assume that between her responsibilities as the head of the Wakandan Design Group and Wakandan Tech Outreach T’Challa and Okoye gave her combat training. The Snap happened in 2018, roughly 2 years into this training. We know that she was dead along with T’Challa during that time and probably wasn’t doing much. They come back in 2023 and are probably back to practicing. I don’t think that justifies Shuri being called a competent fighter, especially when nothing we’ve seen adds credence to that theory. Sure, in theory, she should be reasonably skilled, but nothing we’ve seen across 3 films indicates she has what it takes to become the Black Panther or defend the title against say M’Baku.

[XPac]

Outside of a brief scene with her using a spear in the first film there’s nothing to indicate Shuri is very experienced with hand to hand combat. In virtually every combat situation she’s been shown using blasters, which isn’t to say that she can’t do martial arts, just that it’s obvious that’s not what she’s comfortable doing. She’s a mid-long range fighter who can handle herself momentarily in hand to hand. Against top tier combatants like Killmonger, clearly she’s not even a threat when it comes to martial arts.

The events of the first Black Panther happened back in 2016 a week after Civil War. Let’s be generous and assume that between her responsibilities as the head of the Wakandan Design Group and Wakandan Tech Outreach T’Challa and Okoye gave her combat training. The Snap happened in 2018, roughly 2 years into this training. We know that she was dead along with T’Challa during that time and probably wasn’t doing much. They come back in 2023 and are probably back to practicing. I don’t think that justifies Shuri being called a competent fighter, especially when nothing we’ve seen adds credence to that theory. Sure, in theory, she should be reasonably skilled, but nothing we’ve seen across 3 films indicates she has what it takes to become the Black Panther or defend the title against say M’Baku.

Of course, in real life warefare people use guns. Doesn't necessarily mean they can't fight... it just means they're smart enough to use guns if they happen to have guns. Or blasters in her case.

I do concede that since they didn't even consider giving her the heart shaped herb in the first movie, it's very fair to assume she wasn't in the same league as Killmonger or T'Challa. But in the movie world any character is one training montage away from being where they need to be. How many years of training did it take Steve Rogers to arguably become the greatest fighter on the planet?

Point being if they haven't been training her to fight, they SHOULD be after Killmonger. Because regardless of whether or not she ever wears the BP mantle, the idea should be that that she's ready to wear it if the need arises. She's part of a royal family in a monarchy... thats sort of the point of all of this. If T'Challa should die (and he did against Killmonger), she should be property trained to take over. If they're not going to bother preparing members of the royal family to actually rule, then they might as well just say screw all of this and just start having elections because they're completely missing the point of it all.

[chief12d]

Of course, in real life warefare people use guns. Doesn't necessarily mean they can't fight... it just means they're smart enough to use guns if they happen to have guns. Or blasters in her case.

I do concede that since they didn't even consider giving her the heart shaped herb in the first movie, it's very fair to assume she wasn't in the same league as Killmonger or T'Challa. But in the movie world any character is one training montage away from being where they need to be. How many years of training did it take Steve Rogers to arguably become the greatest fighter on the planet?

Point being if they haven't been training her to fight, they SHOULD be after Killmonger. Because regardless of whether or not she ever wears the BP mantle, the idea should be that that she's ready to wear it if the need arises. She's part of a royal family in a monarchy... thats sort of the point of all of this. If T'Challa should die (and he did against Killmonger), she should be property trained to take over. If they're not going to bother preparing members of the royal family to actually rule, then they might as well just say screw all of this and just start having elections because they're completely missing the point of it all.

If you think that Shuri is a skilled martial artist I respect that opinion. The fact she is only ever seen using blasters is a pretty heavy indication that while yes, she can probably do some self-defense techniques, she’s not a true martial artist. She wouldn’t have been given the appearance and characterization that she was if that wasn’t the case. Shuri is a lanky lab rat more comfortable quipping about her brother’s fashion sense and the pomp of Wakandan traditions. Everything we’ve seen tells me she probably doesn’t have what it takes to keep the mantle.

Just because they should’ve trained her doesn’t mean they did. That’s projecting logic into a fictional world where things don’t always make sense. And once again that would be reflected in future appearances. Shuri doesn’t display any high level hand to hand techniques during Infinity War or Endgame and from what we’ve seen, she has the same frame. It’s reasonable to expect that she got training after Killmonger’s coup, but nothing we’ve seen suggests that. Now some of these issues go away if they retcon her death in Infinity War and reveal she got training from Okoye and the Dora. But even then 5 years of training isn’t substantial enough for me to think she can take on M’Baku or any other of the noble warriors competing for the throne.

[XPac]

If you think that Shuri is a skilled martial artist I respect that opinion. The fact she is only ever seen using blasters is a pretty heavy indication that while yes, she can probably do some self-defense techniques, she’s not a true martial artist. She wouldn’t have been given the appearance and characterization that she was if that wasn’t the case. Shuri is a lanky lab rat more comfortable quipping about her brother’s fashion sense and the pomp of Wakandan traditions. Everything we’ve seen tells me she probably doesn’t have what it takes to keep the mantle.

Just because they should’ve trained her doesn’t mean they did. That’s projecting logic into a fictional world where things don’t always make sense. And once again that would be reflected in future appearances. Shuri doesn’t display any high level hand to hand techniques during Infinity War or Endgame and from what we’ve seen, she has the same frame. It’s reasonable to expect that she got training after Killmonger’s coup, but nothing we’ve seen suggests that. Now some of these issues go away if they retcon her death in Infinity War and reveal she got training from Okoye and the Dora. But even then 5 years of training isn’t substantial enough for me to think she can take on M’Baku or any other of the noble warriors competing for the throne.

I'm not saying she's a skilled martial artist... we don't have enough date to make that conclusion. My point is that IF she's not by the end of the first solo movie, they should be training her to be to the point where she should be next time we see her. It's just common sense given the situation they are in.

And yes that is me projecting logic into a fictional world where things don't always make sense. But that also means Shuri can get enough training in a single movie to defeat M'Baku by the end of it... because arguing that even 5 years of training isn't substantion enough for her to defeat M'Baku is also projecting logic into a fictiaon world where thigns don't always make sense. Because it's a fictional world, a single training movie montage is really all it takes. That's not to say that Coogler will go that route of course... merely arguing that within the confines of movie logic he can if he so chooses.

My overall point being she as a character should be prepared to become BP, even if she never does. To not write her that way ultimately is a deserviece to both her and her family.

[Pumbaa]

Remember when our biggest concern was whether Doom, Namor or Storm would show up in the sequel. Those were the days. I would have been happy with all three. Now every suggestion I hear just upsets me. Can’t believe regardless of what happens we are never gonna see Chadwick’s T’Challa again.

[Chesterfield]

A friend and I were having a discussion about the MCU. I say let the movie universe evolve in ways you don’t see in the comics. Make someone else the Black Panther. Move on from Stark, Rogers, & Thor. Tell great stories with their replacements. I’d love to see that in comics. My friend, who’s more of an old school 80’s comic guy, says give Panther a rest but replace Chadwick as T’challa eventually. He’s also a fan of rebooting one day. I HATE that idea. Let everything play out realistically. I’m more interested in the stories than I am one version of a character. Let Shuri be the new Black Panther. That growth is will make the MCU more interesting down the road.

It's easy to say that when Thor, Cap and Iron Man have been in about 8 movies each over the course of 10 years. We've only just really been introduced to T'Challa and now its time for a drastic departure for the sake of doing something different? This sort of mental gymnastics has a pattern when it comes to black people; yes I'm pulling out andcwaving the race card. Youre interested in the stories? Great, we all are but guess what, T'Challa is the story. Everything concerning Black Panther revolves around him and as you can see, T'Challa is not dead!

[Chesterfield]

Outside of a brief scene with her using a spear in the first film there’s nothing to indicate Shuri is very experienced with hand to hand combat. In virtually every combat situation she’s been shown using blasters, which isn’t to say that she can’t do martial arts, just that it’s obvious that’s not what she’s comfortable doing. She’s a mid-long range fighter who can handle herself momentarily in hand to hand. Against top tier combatants like Killmonger, clearly she’s not even a threat when it comes to martial arts.

The events of the first Black Panther happened back in 2016 a week after Civil War. Let’s be generous and assume that between her responsibilities as the head of the Wakandan Design Group and Wakandan Tech Outreach T’Challa and Okoye gave her combat training. The Snap happened in 2018, roughly 2 years into this training. We know that she was dead along with T’Challa during that time and probably wasn’t doing much. They come back in 2023 and are probably back to practicing. I don’t think that justifies Shuri being called a competent fighter, especially when nothing we’ve seen adds credence to that theory. Sure, in theory, she should be reasonably skilled, but nothing we’ve seen across 3 films indicates she has what it takes to become the Black Panther or defend the title against say M’Baku.

Mary Shuri

[Ezyo1000]

A friend and I were having a discussion about the MCU. I say let the movie universe evolve in ways you don’t see in the comics. Make someone else the Black Panther. Move on from Stark, Rogers, & Thor. Tell great stories with their replacements. I’d love to see that in comics. My friend, who’s more of an old school 80’s comic guy, says give Panther a rest but replace Chadwick as T’challa eventually. He’s also a fan of rebooting one day. I HATE that idea. Let everything play out realistically. I’m more interested in the stories than I am one version of a character. Let Shuri be the new Black Panther. That growth is will make the MCU more interesting down the road.

Except you and alot of other people are forgetting one thing. T'Challa. Did. Not. Die. Shuri isn't designed to be BP and making that change would be so forced abd unorganized that it would not work. Based on the first movie? Mbaku would become the ruler based on what happened in the movies or Okoye. Neither of them should be BP. To think that's it's perfectly fine to just drop all of T'Challas story and development, you know the one who's the title character and who's mythos this belongs to, is ridiculous at best. Shuri was created to be an inspiration to Black girls hence the whole stem research donations from Marvel after the movie. People keep saying the want black girls to feel the same way black boy's felt when the movie dropped... Except they did because they had no 1, but 3 different Black women handling business. From Shuri, to Okoye, to Nakia. All had agency, none were damsels in distress. Yet that's not enough. Let T'Challa get his story. And later on of they want, they can organically develop Shuri to be BP. But this whole retire T'Challa our of respect for Chadwick is dumb and dishonest

[Ezyo1000]

It wouldn't take a retcon (or much of one) ... just a flash back. Similar to the Rey and Leia flashbacks in Rise of the Skywalker, they can simply say T'Challa was trainer her this whole time. Which frankly is what he should have been doing anyways after the Killmonger incident.

The thing is, we never got any tangible evidence that Shuri can't fight at all ... just that she doesn't want to and that no one felt she could beat Killmonger. For what it's worth she did show up in the frontlines to fight alongside the Avengers in End Game. Granted she was fighting with lasers than a spear... but it arguably doesn't make sense to send your princess to the front lines of a battle like that if she can't at least handle herself to some degree.

Shuri should be able to fight, and she should be able to rule if it's necessary. And I'm not even saying that as an arguement for her taking the BP mante (something I am for the record fairly neutral about). As a matter of logical storytelling, the royal family should have prepared her for this. If they didn't prior to the Killmonger uprising, they dam well should prepare her afterwards. The Royal family, and the writers are frankly doing her character a diservice otherwise.

I've said this before. If they were grooming Shuri to take over then the best time to do it organically would of been in EG. Where she doesn't get snapped. That would give her 5 years ruling, experience under her belt, and a chance for her to go her own way. That didn't happen. Because that wasn't the intention. St this point it would be a retcon and a big one because she is still young and doesn't have the mindset to rule.

Just because she is Royal doesn't mean she is for to rule and probably other tribes would take over as they are better warriors. Like MOS said she is a labrat and she is good at it and Coogler was sure to carve a space for her out of T'Challas shadow.

So again, making Shuri BP requires a hefty retcon that would be hamfisted

[Jabare]

I'm not even ready to talk about the MCU or videogame stuff. Feels like I'm gonna need a year if not more and even then I'm not sure I'll be in a good place

[MindofShadow]

A friend and I were having a discussion about the MCU. I say let the movie universe evolve in ways you don’t see in the comics. Make someone else the Black Panther. Move on from Stark, Rogers, & Thor. Tell great stories with their replacements. I’d love to see that in comics. My friend, who’s more of an old school 80’s comic guy, says give Panther a rest but replace Chadwick as T’challa eventually. He’s also a fan of rebooting one day. I HATE that idea. Let everything play out realistically. I’m more interested in the stories than I am one version of a character. Let Shuri be the new Black Panther. That growth is will make the MCU more interesting down the road.

... that isn't growth? That is a knee jerk reaction after something terrible happened outside the movies.

"growth" would be watching Shuri grow over the next couple movies and then maybe, maybe she take the mantle. Or she continues to be her own character.

That is growth.

Abruptly changing course and changing the character and doing another "have to take the mantle from dead relative" isn't growth at all. It isn't organic. Especially when you'd have to magically make Shuri the best warrior in Wakanda when a basic Dora would beat her ass.

The sequel needs to address T'challa's decision to open the country and how that affects him and wakanda. You can't do that without T'challa .

[Marvell2100]

The first Black Panther movie was about T'Challa's growth as a man and a king. The story isn't complete. So we throw all that away and forget about it? Do a Shuri movie as BP and it changes the entire framing of what the arc of the movie is supposed to be about.

Shuri becoming BP doesn't empower her because she was already a strong, powerful character with a brilliant mind who should continue to develop as that character.