Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Marvell2100]

Question for the gang:


Let's assume BP2 was done and finished and was due out right now.

Would you pay $29.99 + a D+ subscription to watch it?

Or would you wait until it was free on D+ in December?

Or buy the media eventually?

Or would you prefer it wsa pushed back until theaters are "normal?"


aka... assume the movie was Black Panther 2 instead of Black Widow and was ready to go this second. Would you pay for it Mulan style or wait or wish it would be pushed by Wonder Woman style?

I'd buy the Blu-ray and I already have a D+ subscription. I'd also buy whatever BP action figures that come out with it.

[Marvell2100]

To be fair to Devaishwarya’s point though, this is a phenomenon you see in solo franchises too. Plenty of people are more a fan of Batman’s supporting cast and spin-off characters than the main hero himself. Same goes for Peter and the whole Spider-Man Family. People prefer Miles or Spider-Gwen, etc. The difference is that those franchises can support multiple books to give everyone what they want. But if you’re a fan of Shuri, the Dora, Kaspar Cole, or Killmonger first, you don’t have many avenues to enjoy them outside of the main Black Panther book. So the test in the future is to see if the world of Wakanda is bigger than a single character and while I’d eventually lose interest if T’Challa wasn’t the face of the franchise, I unfortunately think it could with enough push.

The difference is that Batman has multiple titles to flesh out him and his supporting characters. Heck, nearly all of his supporting characters have their own series. Same as Spidey. Like Bats he has tons of legacy characters.

BP is nowhere near that level.

[Marvell2100]

I've actually noticed this myself. How many new young male heroes (of color or otherwise) can you name out of Marvel in the last 5 years or so?

(Before you mention Miles... he was created in 2011.)

Meanwhile, there have been a spate of young heroines at Marvel, ranging from the new Ms. Marvel to Moon Girl.

Dude, you can probably go back 10 years. The most recent character I can think of is the new Patriot that was in the Falcap book. And he hasn't been seen since.

Remember Bill Foster's nephew Tom? Yeah, that was like a century ago.

[XPac]

When Hudlin wrote Shuri as the next BP he didn't write her as T'Challa with Boobs. And she really came into her own, imo.
(to the bolded) That speaks more to the grossly wasted opportunity and potential the Marvel editors squandered over the years and specifically after the Movie by handing the reigns to some idiot who just wanted to tear everything down (in stark contrast to what was built up before) because he was feeling some kind of way.

Like Hell's Kitchen and Gotham, or more relevant, like Krakoa...Wakanda could/should have been a world onto itself by now.

It's probably overly optimistic to think that it would get to that level now... but nonetheless I do believe they are making strides to get there.

Heck, we've got Whoopi Goldberg asking for Wakanda in Disneyland... slowly but surely it is becoming it's own thing.

[Ezyo1000]

I agree with everything you’re saying, but I think you’re making a distinction without a difference. Like the Batman and Spider-Man franchises, the Black Panther mythos is home to a wealth of characters outside the main hero that have garnered their own fanbases (driven almost entirely by the MCU). That these characters weren’t designed to be legacies is besides the point I’m making. They’re popular and among some audiences even preferred over T’Challa.

They can’t sustain their own books for the reasons you and others have laid out. Trash attempts at branching off being chief among them. Politically driven narratives, inexperienced writers, failing to give them their own niche, etc. But it also speaks to a wider issue that we’ve all been discussing for a while. The huge gulf in popularity between T’Challa as a multimedia IP and his as an actual comic property. T’Challa isn’t at Daredevil levels of respect and love amongst most comic readers or creators.

That makes him much more dispensable to the Black Panther mythology than say Bruce Wayne or Peter Parker to their respective franchises. Shuri could, in theory, be pushed as hard as Captain Marvel was/is and most comic fans who don’t care/actively dislike Black Panther will shrug their shoulders and most comic creators would do what they were doing before and write her as T’Challa with boobs (but a little more hot-headed/quippy). The fact T’Challa isn’t a solidified seller himself is precisely why he’s more replaceable than other characters who have similarly wide supporting characters/legacies.

Obviously I wouldn’t want that. I’m a dude that would be fine with millions of Wakandan redshirts dying if it meant T’Challa got a feat. To me, he’s what makes the mythos as great as it is, but we’re a minority among comic fans. I could be wrong and obviously we’ll never know until Marvel actually tries, but that’s the way I’m seeing it right now.

Except thing is, I don't even know if it's that T'Challa isn't sustainable, I actually don't think that's true at all. Despite having to be propped up for the last two years, even Coates initial first couple years the book did alright even though it was shitty writing. Priest did well despite what he had to go through, and Hudlin proved T'Challa could be successful given what he did.

Its not that T'Challa isn't a good sellar but more so he hasn't had good writers with good art and premise since Hudlin. Had Priest or Hudlin started when Coates did? We wouldn't be having this conversation because they would be ballin right now. Hell we saw it with Narcisse, remember how fast his book stabilized despite all the shitty spin offs thst came first and all the bad will Coates and his cabal caused because he respected T'Challa? Same thing. And I bet if Narcisse came first before gay and rise was the first spin off instead of BP wow, it would of likely turned into an ongoing because how he treated T'Challa.

T'Challa seriously needs RJ, or another A list writer who will respect him and his mythos and has a good story to tell and his numbers will be fine

[Marvell2100]

Except thing is, I don't even know if it's that T'Challa isn't sustainable, I actually don't think that's true at all. Despite having to be propped up for the last two years, even Coates initial first couple years the book did alright even though it was shitty writing. Priest did well despite what he had to go through, and Hudlin proved T'Challa could be successful given what he did.

Its not that T'Challa isn't a good sellar but more so he hasn't had good writers with good art and premise since Hudlin. Had Priest or Hudlin started when Coates did? We wouldn't be having this conversation because they would be ballin right now. Hell we saw it with Narcisse, remember how fast his book stabilized despite all the shitty spin offs thst came first and all the bad will Coates and his cabal caused because he respected T'Challa? Same thing. And I bet if Narcisse came first before gay and rise was the first spin off instead of BP wow, it would of likely turned into an ongoing because how he treated T'Challa.

Here's the thing, even without a solo T'Challa needs to be present in Marvel. Whether it's Avengers, Ultimates, FF, Agents of Wakanda etc, T'Chall needs to stay involved in the main MU.

Too many times T'Challa has been taken off the board and severely underutilized. He needs to have a constant presence so that it's almost second nature for him to be around like Cap or Tony.

They need to start branding him as someone who has a hand in all corners of the MU.

[Paul Muad'Dib]

I guess, like most fans, we just assumed CAB would continue to play the lead role…

Damn, Damn, Damn, James! “Good Times” was not the same! ( that rhymes)

The State Of BP without Chad. He can’t’ be replaced. Maybe BP1 can stand on its own. It’s a classic. I should know…

Dare the thought of total re-cast. That does kinda seem harsh. Although it creates opportunity & doesn’t isolate this group of black actors. How big is black Hollywood?




Cats can see in the dark & still have the best vision. We all want what is best for BP & the best vision.




"cat eyes"- rep

[Paul Muad'Dib]

The creators behind BP have been F**kin' Up! Yall won’t call it out. I will. Gladly! Be honest. Wasn’t CAB the crown-jewel? He made us forget all the bs we now (really) know about the first plagiarized film.


WWO will be continuing it's campaign. new mini story coming soon.



the focus will be about a magical royal cat & his adventures in Wu-kanda. that's the plot. more like "Secret Life Of Wu-Kandan Cats".. .. No, seriously.




Black female representation? C’mon, will yall vote for a Black Atlantis? Black (Allied Black Namoor)? It’s your culture? Black People historically don’t have the same gender inequality issues as non-black folks. Why push for Shuri as BP (props to Hudlin) but not alternative cultural content beyond singular individual characters. push for worlds, galaxies, talking cats, wwo...

[chief12d]

Except thing is, I don't even know if it's that T'Challa isn't sustainable, I actually don't think that's true at all. Despite having to be propped up for the last two years, even Coates initial first couple years the book did alright even though it was shitty writing. Priest did well despite what he had to go through, and Hudlin proved T'Challa could be successful given what he did.

Its not that T'Challa isn't a good sellar but more so he hasn't had good writers with good art and premise since Hudlin. Had Priest or Hudlin started when Coates did? We wouldn't be having this conversation because they would be ballin right now. Hell we saw it with Narcisse, remember how fast his book stabilized despite all the shitty spin offs thst came first and all the bad will Coates and his cabal caused because he respected T'Challa? Same thing. And I bet if Narcisse came first before gay and rise was the first spin off instead of BP wow, it would of likely turned into an ongoing because how he treated T'Challa.

T'Challa seriously needs RJ, or another A list writer who will respect him and his mythos and has a good story to tell and his numbers will be fine

I get what you’re saying but I think we need to be honest with ourselves about how Black Panther has performed in comparison to others in his weight class popularity-wise. T’Challa has at no point in his publication history sold better than Iron Man or Captain America who were absolute B-listers before the MCU. Priest was on the verge of cancellation through most of his run and despite initially strong sales even Hudlin’s run tapered off and did worse than the likes of even second-tier X-Men teams.

T’Challa can move books with the right combination of writing and art and there’s absolutely no reason at this point why he shouldn’t at least be doing Captain Marvel numbers. But he’s always straddled the line between low B-high C lister in terms of comic popularity and that’s my main point. That’s of course less the case nowadays (I’d argue he’s high B-list at minimum) but that’s driven almost exclusively by the MCU and so you still have lots of comic fans/creators that don’t have that deep appreciation for the character.

So it’s easier to displace him as the face of the franchise than other characters with longer publication histories or historically better sales (Tony, Wolverine, Daredevil, etc.) Not saying they should or will, just that T’Challa is hypothetically easier to replace. And that’s just looking at him as a solo property in his own book. His underuse throughout much of Marvel’s history also contributes to his relative lack of appreciation among comic fans/creators. Even though T’Challa should be one of those 6 degrees of separation characters, he’s historically always been on the margins of major events, era defining teams, and such.

[Ekie]

As a counter to MoS's point...I'm a fan of T'Challa and Black Panther...but I'm also a huge fan of the world and mythos and characters of Wakanda as a whole. For me one doesn't exist without the other, not successfully.
It's always a little baffling to me how someone could love to the point of obsession one X-Men character but completely disregard the X-Men as whole (just as an example). I understand my "fan-thinking" is probably in the minority but still...

The Black Panther mythos isn't like X-Men. That's a very bad comparison. It's more like Batman except all of his supporting cast is severely underdeveloped

[Marvell2100]

The Black Panther mythos isn't like X-Men. That's a very bad comparison. It's more like Batman except all of his supporting cast is severely underdeveloped

Exactly. There are many mutants to choose from to like and I'm sure lots of people have multiple X-Men they like. Heck, Synch, Bishop and Banshee(can't figure it out, I liked him as soon as I saw him) are my favorites.

There is only one Black Panther I like and his name is T'Challa.

[XPac]

The Black Panther mythos isn't like X-Men. That's a very bad comparison. It's more like Batman except all of his supporting cast is severely underdeveloped

They are clearly interested in developing the supporting cast though. Shuri, the Midnight Angels, and Killmonger have all had their own books. And of course Storm has her share of content both with and apart from Black Panther.

T'Challa's supporting cast isn't developed to the degree as Batmans, which has been around for decades.... but I do believe marvel is making a strong effort to build it up and quickly. I think Disney see's at least the potential for profit here, especially in the young female demographic and are investing their time accordingly.

[Ezyo1000]

Here's the thing, even without a solo T'Challa needs to be present in Marvel. Whether it's Avengers, Ultimates, FF, Agents of Wakanda etc, T'Chall needs to stay involved in the main MU.

Too many times T'Challa has been taken off the board and severely underutilized. He needs to have a constant presence so that it's almost second nature for him to be around like Cap or Tony.

They need to start branding him as someone who has a hand in all corners of the MU.

I 1000% agree. Ther are two things I like on recent times from the comics. In Avengers when JA had strange ask T'Challa how he was able to be I. The earth's core without being crushed and he responded with "Oh of course you can, your the Black Panther" and on empyre having swordsman reinforce the most dangerous man alive title.

I want villains to go "What! How did X happen!? Oh.. Of course this happened, it's him, The Black Panther, the most dangerous man alive" Isht like that when referring to T'Challa. And the AoW should be revamped with better characters and more Wakandans

[Ezyo1000]

I get what you’re saying but I think we need to be honest with ourselves about how Black Panther has performed in comparison to others in his weight class popularity-wise. T’Challa has at no point in his publication history sold better than Iron Man or Captain America who were absolute B-listers before the MCU. Priest was on the verge of cancellation through most of his run and despite initially strong sales even Hudlin’s run tapered off and did worse than the likes of even second-tier X-Men teams.

T’Challa can move books with the right combination of writing and art and there’s absolutely no reason at this point why he shouldn’t at least be doing Captain Marvel numbers. But he’s always straddled the line between low B-high C lister in terms of comic popularity and that’s my main point. That’s of course less the case nowadays (I’d argue he’s high B-list at minimum) but that’s driven almost exclusively by the MCU and so you still have lots of comic fans/creators that don’t have that deep appreciation for the character.

So it’s easier to displace him as the face of the franchise than other characters with longer publication histories or historically better sales (Tony, Wolverine, Daredevil, etc.) Not saying they should or will, just that T’Challa is hypothetically easier to replace. And that’s just looking at him as a solo property in his own book. His underuse throughout much of Marvel’s history also contributes to his relative lack of appreciation among comic fans/creators. Even though T’Challa should be one of those 6 degrees of separation characters, he’s historically always been on the margins of major events, era defining teams, and such.

But you also need to look at the time he has had legit pushes. Which started with Priest. Priest was rebuilding the character from the ground up, when the character was obscure. Hudlins run is the most controversial run of BPs publishing history. Both had successful runs despite there being almost no attention on him. I'm telling you, I'd priest or Hudlin were pinning BP when Coates was? We wouldn't be having this conversation. And despite the isht stories. Coates numbers for BP were pretty high until the end of S2, again, **** story killed it but it showed that there's a market and it takes a writer (and editorial) to go to bat for him and telling gripping stories. Ones that make you want to turn the page. He can consistent sell at 40k. He just needs a writer to give a damn and good editorial oversight

[Marvell2100]

I get what you’re saying but I think we need to be honest with ourselves about how Black Panther has performed in comparison to others in his weight class popularity-wise. T’Challa has at no point in his publication history sold better than Iron Man or Captain America who were absolute B-listers before the MCU. Priest was on the verge of cancellation through most of his run and despite initially strong sales even Hudlin’s run tapered off and did worse than the likes of even second-tier X-Men teams.

T’Challa can move books with the right combination of writing and art and there’s absolutely no reason at this point why he shouldn’t at least be doing Captain Marvel numbers. But he’s always straddled the line between low B-high C lister in terms of comic popularity and that’s my main point. That’s of course less the case nowadays (I’d argue he’s high B-list at minimum) but that’s driven almost exclusively by the MCU and so you still have lots of comic fans/creators that don’t have that deep appreciation for the character.

So it’s easier to displace him as the face of the franchise than other characters with longer publication histories or historically better sales (Tony, Wolverine, Daredevil, etc.) Not saying they should or will, just that T’Challa is hypothetically easier to replace. And that’s just looking at him as a solo property in his own book. His underuse throughout much of Marvel’s history also contributes to his relative lack of appreciation among comic fans/creators. Even though T’Challa should be one of those 6 degrees of separation characters, he’s historically always been on the margins of major events, era defining teams, and such.

We have to remember this as well. Even if Cap and Tony were low tier characters back in the day, guess what? They had ongoing solos, they were in the Avengers, they were guest starring in other books. They were in people's mind.

It wasn't even a push, just a constant presence, a continuing reminder that they were around.

Just think, if they just kept an ongoing BP title way back when and he appeared in Avengers all the time, he was a constant guest star in other titles. We wouldn't have to keep starting over from scatch and when we did, he's already a well established character with thousands of appearances.

Now they just need to give him the Carol Danvers treatment and keep churning out solos no matter what.