Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Ezyo1000]

My Agents of Wakanda line-up:

1. Okoye
2. Black Widow
3. Kasper Kole
4. Winter Soldier
5. Misty Knight
6. 3-D Man

I feel that the line up is still missing something. I don't know who else would need to be on The team but someone else thats known that T'Challa can Also interact with and get fun stories out of.

I don't think there's been too many issues in Avengers where T'Challa has developed a plan that the entire team has followed. He hasn't given strategical or tactical orders and anyone would be hard pressed to tell who the chairperson is by picking up the book.

Surprising but then again it's not.

I mean the most I can think of has been when he has been by himself doing his own thing, which feels less like the chairman and more of the lone wolf seeing the endgame stuff. The avenger's cartoon did a better job when he took over as the leader to showcase his ability then what we are seeing here. By letting CA and CM assuming leadership stances and dialogue while T'Challa is just there makes its all the more frustrating. Then throw in that he gave the team back to Steve, I wouldn't be surprised if Steve was the leader again. Which is lazy and spews mindless lip service all over the place without substance to back it up

[MindofShadow]

Empyre wasn't a BP/Wakandan event no doubt. But it was another event that used Wakanda but didn't fully display Wakanda's capabilities.

T'Challa didn't have a bad performance but it wasn't something that well will be talking about for years on end. Honestly, no one really got much shine except maybe Thor at the end. Tony was barely a thought after the 1st issue.

This just wasn't an event worthy story and the villains weren't something to write home about. It would have been better if the Avengers/FF/X-Men had to team-up against the Kree/Skrull alliance.

Probably could have seen better fights and tech on display

Whole thing was a big mediocre sandwich

No one is going to remember anything from it in 6 months besides the wedding stuff.

[Ezyo1000]

That's just Caps REAL power. Its not his ability to throw a round piece of indestructible metal really really well ... his real power is what Millar once described as the voice of God (which is itself somewhat ironic since he writes Caps voice terribly) . He's the man who can command God's and kings. It's just his thing

But all that said, if he were leader of the Avengers in this story instead of Tchalla it would be written the exact same way. Because they are all well respected peers, occasionally people like Stark or Carol or Thor will take the wheel even if they aren't chairperson. Happens to Steve all the time. It doesn't have the strict chain of command that say the military might.

And T'Challas real power is always being 2 steps ahead of his enemies and 3 steps ahead of his friends, world's greatest poker face, shrewdest man alive who always gets his enemies and friend's alike to underestimate him.. plus Tony, Steve and Thor all unanimously agreed that T'Challa was the best fit to lead. So, therefore, you let the best fit person lead unless they ask you to lead.

[XPac]

And T'Challas real power is always being 2 steps ahead of his enemies and 3 steps ahead of his friends, world's greatest poker face, shrewdest man alive who always gets his enemies and friend's alike to underestimate him.. plus Tony, Steve and Thor all unanimously agreed that T'Challa was the best fit to lead. So, therefore, you let the best fit person lead unless they ask you to lead.

It's not a question of them letting Tchalla lead ... it's a matter him him allowing the others to at times. Steve has done the same thing. This is nothing new really. Tchalla on the Ultimates and Fantastic Four worked in a similar manner.

[Ezyo1000]

Yep, this.

It was an event that really wasn't about BP or Wakanda.

Wakanda wasn't destroyed. BP won his fight 1v1 against a main villain. He defended Wakanda from the front lines and had the respect of his enemies.

No shade was thrown. Nothing was lost.

For a Marvel event with Wakanda stuck in the middle of it... this is a win lol.

Shade wasn't thrown yes... But it was a lot of tell abd not show. We are TOLD. T'Challa is the most dangerous and his brilliant strategist mind is what is keeping the cotati at bay, as well as Wakandan defenses.. but what we are SHOWN is Wakandan splash pages of DM and HZ getting their asses beat, the shield being useless, gund being useless, and a tiny tiny aircraft tech feat, and T'Challa beating swordsman.. like you said, it wasn BAD per se, bit it's bare minimum and it really sucks that at this stage this is what we consider a win.. Maybe AoW tie in would of made it better idk

[Ezyo1000]

It's not a question of them letting Tchalla lead ... it's a matter him him allowing the others to at times. Steve has done the same thing. This is nothing new really. Tchalla on the Ultimates and Fantastic Four worked in a similar manner.

But tell me since he had taken over as chairman, how often have we seen him actually LEAD the Avengers

[XPac]

But tell me since he had taken over as chairman, how often have we seen him actually LEAD the Avengers

If you ignore the cover of the book, the inside of Avengers Empyre 1 does a descent job of showing Tchalla was in charge on earth at least.

[Cville]

But tell me since he had taken over as chairman, how often have we seen him actually LEAD the Avengers

They should have just done it like the cartoon and made Tchalla the Chairman and Cap the field leader. That way when Tchalla goes to the big meetings and confront Coulson and Cap organisms the offense in a situation, it makes more sense for the way Aaron wrote it.

[Marvell2100]

And T'Challas real power is always being 2 steps ahead of his enemies and 3 steps ahead of his friends, world's greatest poker face, shrewdest man alive who always gets his enemies and friend's alike to underestimate him.. plus Tony, Steve and Thor all unanimously agreed that T'Challa was the best fit to lead. So, therefore, you let the best fit person lead unless they ask you to lead.

It's not a question of them letting Tchalla lead ... it's a matter him him allowing the others to at times. Steve has done the same thing. This is nothing new really. Tchalla on the Ultimates and Fantastic Four worked in a similar manner.

The problem is that T'Challa hasn't had a long run leading the Avengers. He needs at least a 40-60 issue run with some major story arcs where BP is the clear cut leader of the team. He needs to be giving orders and making tactical moves that show he's in charge.

Even Monica had some moments during her short time as chairperson. As far as Cap as the defacto leader people always make the mistake that Steve has decades of experience when in actuality he doesn't.

At best Cap has 15-20 years experience Marvel time. He was created during WWII but didn't make it to the end which gives him a max 4years.

He goes into sus-an and doesn't appear again until the Avengers find him. So from the time he was revived until the present that's about 10-15 years Marvel time. so that's a max between 15-20 years. Hardly decades more than anyone else.

Not taking away from Cap's skills or leadership, just pointing out that he's not decades ahead of everyone else.

Thor would hold the record with centuries.

[Marvell2100]

I feel that the line up is still missing something. I don't know who else would need to be on The team but someone else thats known that T'Challa can Also interact with and get fun stories out of.

I think Winter Soldier and Widow would bring name cred to the team but not be enough to overshadow BP. Add too many powerhouses(Thor, Iron Man, Blue Marvel) then you're just re-creating Avengers or Ultimates.

Maybe add Blade or Hawkeye and drop 3-D Man.

[Ezyo1000]

If you ignore the cover of the book, the inside of Avengers Empyre 1 does a descent job of showing Tchalla was in charge on earth at least.

I'm not talking about just the empyre book, in talking about In His entire tenure so far (hasn't been long at all) how many times have we seen T'Challa actually LEAD the Avengers?

[Ezyo1000]

They should have just done it like the cartoon and made Tchalla the Chairman and Cap the field leader. That way when Tchalla goes to the big meetings and confront Coulson and Cap organisms the offense in a situation, it makes more sense for the way Aaron wrote it.

It would of made more sense to do that yea, and atleast could be acceptable a little more than just having him taking over. I personally would rather just see T'Challa unabated and leading using his own unique style

The problem is that T'Challa hasn't had a long run leading the Avengers. He needs at least a 40-60 issue run with some major story arcs where BP is the clear cut leader of the team. He needs to be giving orders and making tactical moves that show he's in charge.

Even Monica had some moments during her short time as chairperson. As far as Cap as the defacto leader people always make the mistake that Steve has decades of experience when in actuality he doesn't.

At best Cap has 15-20 years experience Marvel time. He was created during WWII but didn't make it to the end which gives him a max 4years.

He goes into sus-an and doesn't appear again until the Avengers find him. So from the time he was revived until the present that's about 10-15 years Marvel time. so that's a max between 15-20 years. Hardly decades more than anyone else.

Not taking away from Cap's skills or leadership, just pointing out that he's not decades ahead of everyone else.

Thor would hold the record with centuries.

Yes this is what I don't get either. Cap doesn't exactly have that much more experience than anyone else. I mean isht T'Challa has been trained since birth to be a warrior and a leader, that easily trump's Cap AND he leads an entire nation and is the most favored of his god out of 10k years of panthers. People need to put respect on his name

[XPac]

The problem is that T'Challa hasn't had a long run leading the Avengers. He needs at least a 40-60 issue run with some major story arcs where BP is the clear cut leader of the team. He needs to be giving orders and making tactical moves that show he's in charge.

Even Monica had some moments during her short time as chairperson. As far as Cap as the defacto leader people always make the mistake that Steve has decades of experience when in actuality he doesn't.

At best Cap has 15-20 years experience Marvel time. He was created during WWII but didn't make it to the end which gives him a max 4years.

He goes into sus-an and doesn't appear again until the Avengers find him. So from the time he was revived until the present that's about 10-15 years Marvel time. so that's a max between 15-20 years. Hardly decades more than anyone else.

Not taking away from Cap's skills or leadership, just pointing out that he's not decades ahead of everyone else.

Thor would hold the record with centuries.

I'd agree him having decades of experience is probably an exaggeration. That said he probably has more experience leading a super hero team than anyone aside from Cyclops (who most consider the default leader when Steve isn't around) and Reed.

Innately overtime he became viewed as the best field leader not only in marvel but in comics in general. That's just sort of a consensus that formed time ... similar to Reed being the smartest hero. Overtime marvel writers just sort of got to that point.

[Marvell2100]

I'd agree him having decades of experience is probably an exaggeration. That said he probably has more experience leading a super hero team than anyone aside from Cyclops (who most consider the default leader when Steve isn't around) and Reed.

Innately overtime he became viewed as the best field leader not only in marvel but in comics in general. That's just sort of a consensus that formed time ... similar to Reed being the smartest hero. Overtime marvel writers just sort of got to that point.

Leaders are leaders, whether they lead superhero teams or human armies. If you have tactical skills, understand strategy and know how to use resources then it's pretty moot whether you have 10 years of 15 years.

Wasp has less years than Steve and Scott but she proved a capable leader. I would say that both her and Tony led the Avengers through their most dangerous trials.

Edit: If you continue to default as Cap as leader then you can't develop anyone else. That's one of the good things they did with the team in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The allowed other people opportunities to lead.

[XPac]

Leaders are leaders, whether they lead superhero teams or human armies. If you have tactical skills, understand strategy and know how to use resources then it's pretty moot whether you have 10 years of 15 years.

Wasp has less years than Steve and Scott but she proved a capable leader. I would say that both her and Tony led the Avengers through their most dangerous trials.

Edit: If you continue to default as Cap as leader then you can't develop anyone else. That's one of the good things they did with the team in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The allowed other people opportunities to lead.

True, Wasp is an example of someone who basically had no prior experience yet became ARGUABLY the second best Avengers field leader. She didn't have years of training or any sort of background in it... she was just a natural. And showing that was definately good for her character.

I'd agree that having different characters experiment with leadership is a good thing. Steve's not always around, so if nothing else it's functionally necessary. And frankly we're at the point where the Avengers have enough experienced people that often 3-4 guys in the group can take the lead if necessary. They often do even when Steve IS there. Despite Steve being a relative constant, I think leadership in the Avengers is a fairly fluid thing.