Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

- Scarlet Witch messing with stuff in WandaVision
- Loki doing multiverse time travel stuff
- Dr. Strange called Multiverse of Madness
- Kang confirmed for Ant-Man 3
- Jamie Foxx being cast again for Electro in Spider-Man 3


... the farfetched "just use a different T'challa in the multiverse" isn't quite as farfetched anymore lol. I still thing it is dumb but not impossilbe.

(and hey imagine that. all those rumor sites never once mentioned Jamie Foxx coming back. Not. One. Time. im utterly shocked. they are so reliable!)

Can't help but wonder if that won't be a way for Coogler to Killmonger back into the BP movies. Maybe even as an alternate reality Black Panther.

[KingNomarch]

There is nothing to be confused about.

Hickman created KotD to:

- Give T'challa back his black panther powers
- give him the zombie control ending he wanted
- give him a kingly title so he can stand in a room with the rest of hte illuminati
- create more drama by having T'challa have to deal with this ancestors during the incursion stuff


That is literally it. There is nothing more to it.

Honestly what was the purpose of KoTD? Went from having all the powers and abilities of past BPs to just a "little stronger" and knowledge, which basically became their ghost telling T'Challa how much he sucks. He couldn't control the dead Namor had to get them to follow T'Challa. Shuri is a much better KoTD because she's can create and control zombies meanwhile there isn't a difference between regular T'Challa and KoTD. The only thing that seems to be new is Coates spear thing that T'Challa makes which I'm not sure is tech or magic. And we get to see T'Challa communicate with his ancestors which im certain he could always do but now we get to see it.

[MouserGrey]

Haven't read the issue yet, but T'Challa has always had an aace up his gauntlets. I know his first appearance against the FF was a very prepped BP, but he did ko Sue with gas from his gloves. I know I've seen other, older instances where his gloves had some random effect or power. I still shudder a little at the image if not the effectiveness of the purple boxing gloves in NA. So as sorta lame as I see them, the gloves with some possibly pos ability is pretty standard. I'm sure those of you who are more capable can easily find the older panels of the instances I can't remember.

[XPac]

Honestly what was the purpose of KoTD? Went from having all the powers and abilities of past BPs to just a "little stronger" and knowledge, which basically became their ghost telling T'Challa how much he sucks. He couldn't control the dead Namor had to get them to follow T'Challa. Shuri is a much better KoTD because she's can create and control zombies meanwhile there isn't a difference between regular T'Challa and KoTD. The only thing that seems to be new is Coates spear thing that T'Challa makes which I'm not sure is tech or magic. And we get to see T'Challa communicate with his ancestors which im certain he could always do but now we get to see it.

We have to remember at the time Hickman gave him KotD, T'Challa was dethroned and depowered. KotD have him his powers back and allowed him to call himself a king again. Basically it was a way to return to him a lot of stuff he lost to Shuri without stripping them away from Shuri YET. To me at least that was the main point. The other stuff (ie controlling zombies and talking to previous BP) was mostly just set up stuff for specific scenes Hickman had in mind down the line.

[MindofShadow]

Honestly what was the purpose of KoTD? Went from having all the powers and abilities of past BPs to just a "little stronger" and knowledge, which basically became their ghost telling T'Challa how much he sucks. He couldn't control the dead Namor had to get them to follow T'Challa. Shuri is a much better KoTD because she's can create and control zombies meanwhile there isn't a difference between regular T'Challa and KoTD. The only thing that seems to be new is Coates spear thing that T'Challa makes which I'm not sure is tech or magic. And we get to see T'Challa communicate with his ancestors which im certain he could always do but now we get to see it.

Griot Shuri is what KotD should have been. That powerset actually makes sense.

T'challa's "kotd" is nothing more than the heartshaped herb with the bonus addition of getting trolled by Boomer Ghosts

[Marvell2100]

Didn't T'Challa develop Shadow Physics before he became King of The Dead, way back during DoomWar? (Yep, I brought up the dreaded DoomWar).

Yes he did. if they had everything else come out of that then we wouldn't need KotD powers(?) Shadow combat could have come from there.

I really don't what they want to call it, I just want to all of these abilities folded into one thing. Instead we get new writers coming in and making up their own new isht(which is not bad mind you) but which has no basis in anything that the previous writers have done.

Any enhanced physical upgrades T'Challa had should have come from Shadow Physics:
Increased Speed
Increased Durability
Mid-grade resistance to magic/magic objects
Increased anti-telepathy
Shadow Combat- fighting style that combines various and self created
Increased healing ability

Enhanced suit upgrades:
Chameleon effect
Force push(suit absorbs, redirects energy)
Consecrated napalm
Energy manipulation -uses stored energy to create daggers, darts, swords, staffs, spears etc. Special move: Wakouden - his version of the Hadouken from Street Fighter
Enhances natural healing ability

All of this could have been the result of Shadow Physics then there would have been no need for KotD. And even if Hickman brings up KotD, it's just a ceremonial title without any special enhancement, except for the zombie call I guess.

[Ekie]

I would like to saw, even on Priest book he straight up knocks Namor back 15 feet with a single punch, so it's not at all like he can't throw down with Namor our of the blue of needed, just not preferred. As for the fight with MK. On torn, because he straight up wrecked mk, but at the same time Priest had him squaring up against IF in his run and it's clear that if he wanted to he could of killed him. Now granted mk also beat danny's ass in this arc so I dunno, maybe Has T'Challa gets the advantage over Priest T'Challa since mk was also powered in this issue.

Thank you for bringing that up. My point is that if t'challa has been doing this since priest has been riding him and right now according to Marvel whether we've seen it or not he's more powerful than he's ever been why are people still trying to make him Spider-Man level? Maybe it's time to accept the fact that this is who Marvel wants him to be.
A guy that stands toe to toe with characters like Namor, Doom, and the like. It's been happening for decades now and that was without having quote all the power the knowledge of the past black panthers available to him at his beckon

[chief12d]

I would like to saw, even on Priest book he straight up knocks Namor back 15 feet with a single punch, so it's not at all like he can't throw down with Namor our of the blue of needed, just not preferred. As for the fight with MK. On torn, because he straight up wrecked mk, but at the same time Priest had him squaring up against IF in his run and it's clear that if he wanted to he could of killed him. Now granted mk also beat danny's ass in this arc so I dunno, maybe Has T'Challa gets the advantage over Priest T'Challa since mk was also powered in this issue.

And he did those feats under his regular power. So I don't see the point of massive energy gauntlets or anything like that. To be clear, with his base powerset (vibranium weave suit, anti-metal claws, kinetic redirection, and daggers) should let him be able to scrap with Namor somewhat. He should be able to beat Iron Fist at least half the time (as he's since gotten massive upgrades of his own). Namor shouldn't be one-shotting him and I think that if he gets close enough T'Challa beats Tony. I just don't think he can outright (let alone easily) kill Namor or Black Bolt with his regular arsenal without prep.

I think part of the disconnect here is we're not seeing T'Challa's preexisting assets used to their full advantage which is why people want more tech/magic piled on. T'Challa's plenty powerful as is, but writers feel the need to invent new **** when everything he has already is more than enough. If we already have energy daggers we shouldn't need lightsabers and consecrated napalm. With his kinetic energy redirection there is simply no point to energy gauntlets. Use the character's bread and butter and bust out new stuff when he's legitimately facing a threat the regular arsenal can't take care of. It's about consistency.

[Ekie]

Griot Shuri is what KotD should have been. That powerset actually makes sense.

T'challa's "kotd" is nothing more than the heartshaped herb with the bonus addition of getting trolled by Boomer Ghosts

I understand your skepticism and it's well deserved because Marvel hasn't expanded on it. But I blame Coats because he's the solo writer test with following up after secret wars and expanding on it. Other writers seem to be doing odd things with it and expanding more and more on past Black Panthers. So maybe it will develop into something in the future

[Ekie]

Can't help but wonder if that won't be a way for Coogler to Killmonger back into the BP movies. Maybe even as an alternate reality Black Panther.

That would be a hack thing to do. I understand that theyre friends but he doesn't need every part in every movie you make. Never mind the fact that he wouldn't be a good Tchalla

[Ekie]

Haven't read the issue yet, but T'Challa has always had an aace up his gauntlets. I know his first appearance against the FF was a very prepped BP, but he did ko Sue with gas from his gloves. I know I've seen other, older instances where his gloves had some random effect or power. I still shudder a little at the image if not the effectiveness of the purple boxing gloves in NA. So as sorta lame as I see them, the gloves with some possibly pos ability is pretty standard. I'm sure those of you who are more capable can easily find the older panels of the instances I can't remember.

My point exactly. I get that some people find it annoying that he always seems prepared for something but that's kind of the entire basis of the character abilities. It comes with being the leader of the most technologically advanced Nation on Earth and his paranoia. I don't believe it really diminishes his skill as he usually like Goku fights down to his opponent's level sometimes. Doom has the same and maybe even less amount of resources than tchala and nobody complains when he shows up and starts pulling things out of the air . That said Doom still has a base moveset that people expect and t'challa has the same . So I don't see the issue

[chief12d]

Thank you for bringing that up. My point is that if t'challa has been doing this since priest has been riding him and right now according to Marvel whether we've seen it or not he's more powerful than he's ever been why are people still trying to make him Spider-Man level? Maybe it's time to accept the fact that this is who Marvel wants him to be.
A guy that stands toe to toe with characters like Namor, Doom, and the like. It's been happening for decades now and that was without having quote all the power the knowledge of the past black panthers available to him at his beckon

I think T'Challa at base level is Spider-Man level but that he can scale up as the situation requires via his own tech (kinetic absorption) or prep (new inventions or strategy). But thinking about it, I think you're right that T'Challa should have specific counter-measures in place at all times. But I think it should be on a case-by-case basis.

Look at it like this, prior to AvX him and Namor had their occasional scuffles but for the most part they were on good terms. We can expect that while T'Challa probably had contingencies to take down Namor he didn't keep them on his person every time he suited up. Fast forward a decade and Namor has razed the Golden City, told lies that result in the extermination of Wakanda's people, and outright expressed a desire to commit genocide against the kingdom again.

I could buy T'Challa seeing Namor as a rogue agent that poses a potentially existential threat to Wakanda and thus having some anti-Namor tech on him 24/7. Like how Batman and Superman have fought enough times that it's basically an open secret that Bruce has kryptonite on him in case they gotta throw down. I could see him having specific counter-measures against Doom as well seeing as he's overthrown T'Challa in the past and is another megalomaniac who could destroy the world.

So yea, I believe in T'Challa having specially designed tech/magical assets on hand to take down specific threats like that, but what if he fights Count Nefaria? Or Morgan Le Fay? These are threats T'Challa's probably heard of and may even have fought briefly in the past as part of the Avengers. But I don't expect him to have some random ionic absorption tech in his suit or to have an item that could conveniently nullify the magic of Otherworld.

But he does have energy daggers that can attune themselves to various energy frequencies that can let him cut/stab Nefaria. He does have KoTD abilities that could let him resist getting his soul crushed by Morgan's magic. Instead of inventing new ****, I'd want a writer to show T'Challa use his preexisting skills and tech to stand a fighting chance against omega-level threats. Sometimes he'll pull through and win (like maybe using the energy daggers to destabilize Nefaria's energy) other times he'll have to fall back and come back next time with an adjusted arsenal (find some ancient spear that can cut through Morgan's magic and kill her).

I buy T'Challa being prepared, but not to such a degree he has a counter for EVERY threat EVERY time.

[Ekie]

And he did those feats under his regular power. So I don't see the point of massive energy gauntlets or anything like that. To be clear, with his base powerset (vibranium weave suit, anti-metal claws, kinetic redirection, and daggers) should let him be able to scrap with Namor somewhat. He should be able to beat Iron Fist at least half the time (as he's since gotten massive upgrades of his own). Namor shouldn't be one-shotting him and I think that if he gets close enough T'Challa beats Tony. I just don't think he can outright (let alone easily) kill Namor or Black Bolt with his regular arsenal without prep.

I think part of the disconnect here is we're not seeing T'Challa's preexisting assets used to their full advantage which is why people want more tech/magic piled on. T'Challa's plenty powerful as is, but writers feel the need to invent new **** when everything he has already is more than enough. If we already have energy daggers we shouldn't need lightsabers and consecrated napalm. With his kinetic energy redirection there is simply no point to energy gauntlets. Use the character's bread and butter and bust out new stuff when he's legitimately facing a threat the regular arsenal can't take care of. It's about consistency.

I think the need for the king of the death power up and having it being fully explained as a power up (even though it hasn't been fully used in practice (Coats) is the fact that people think t'challa is on the level of the likes of Iron fist and Spider-Man.
That perception needs to be done away with and if it takes having a label of King of the Dead as the excuse and hopefully a future writer expanding upon that then I'm all for it. Even if that means t'challa still does what he has allways done in his past peak showings. T'challa operates both physically and mentally on an entirely different level than any of those characters period and he has done so throughout his entire history (hence the mary sue charges ppl used to make) yet people are stuck on this peak human low Spider-Man level mindset.

Look at his appearances in other forms of media. How fast was Panther Jacks T'challa? A lot faster than Spider-Man from the scene showing him versus kraven and Thor. He fought multiple Iron men in training and then fought the real Iron Man as well as the Winter soldier at the same time . That's the type of stuff he should be capable off without question.
His physical attributes are superhuman and well above the likes of Iron fist and maybe even Spider-Man. We need to stop living in the past. no more peak human t'challa

[XPac]

Thank you for bringing that up. My point is that if t'challa has been doing this since priest has been riding him and right now according to Marvel whether we've seen it or not he's more powerful than he's ever been why are people still trying to make him Spider-Man level? Maybe it's time to accept the fact that this is who Marvel wants him to be.
A guy that stands toe to toe with characters like Namor, Doom, and the like. It's been happening for decades now and that was without having quote all the power the knowledge of the past black panthers available to him at his beckon

It's similar Batman, who is far weaker than Spiderman yet is considered the most dangerous man on DC earth. See the Batman who laughs for example ... the guy in a straight fight might not be able to last 5 minutes against Spiderman yet is currently a omniversal threat.

Characters can scale when their greatest strength is their mind rather than their muscle. It's why Thor or Hulk won't work in a street level story but BP can, even as BP can work in a cosmic level story. He's very versatile.

[chief12d]

I think the need for the king of the death power up and having it being fully explained as a power up (even though it hasn't been fully used in practice) is the fact that people think t'challa is on the level of the likes of Iron fist and Spider-Man.
That perception needs to be done away with and if it takes having a label of King of the Dead and hopefully a future writer expanding upon that then I'm all for it. T'challa operates both physically and mentally on an entirely different level than any of those characters period and he has done so throughout his entire history yet people are stuck on this peak human low Spider-Man level mindset.

Look at his appearances and other forms of media. How fast was Panther Jacks T'challa? A lot faster than Spider-Man from the scene showing him versus kraven.
In Marvel versus Capcom he was literally the fastest character in the game from side to side without having teleports.
His physical attributes are superhuman and well above the likes of Iron fist and maybe even Spider-Man

The need for the explanation is that it was introduced and never fully explored. T'Challa could be on the same level as Silver Surfer and I'd expect some exposition on what the title means and what its capabilities are.

I don't see anything wrong with T'Challa's regular powerset putting him on the same level as Iron Fist, who is far from a pushover himself. T'Challa should have specific counter measures in place for certain characters 24/7 no doubt, but with his regular powers there's nothing wrong with him losing to Spider-Man a few times and vice versa.

Taking into account his resources, intelligence, and strategic skills as a whole, he's still more dangerous. T'Challa's greatest asset isn't his firepower it's his ability to think ahead and invent. If a writer wants to show why T'Challa is much more powerful than Peter they'd show by the time they both meet face to face the battle has already been 70% decided. Same goes for Iron Fist and Wolverine. What puts him over those characters is his mind, not just his physical prowess.