Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Huntsman Spider]

Except when It's their favorite hero like Spiderman, or Cap, or wolverine, then there's no limit to there building capabilities

That must not apply to Bats, Spidey, DD, Wolverine or The Punisher.

To be somewhat fair, Daredevil constantly gets his life turned upside down and torn apart, starting with Frank Miller's "Born Again" and the subsequent writers that tried to follow in his footsteps, ultimately culminating in him going outright villain (albeit with help from demonic possession/corruption) in Shadowland, not to mention the current arc where he'll end up in jail due to having accidentally killed someone. Spider-Man has had a constant cycle of runs and arcs where it seems like he's finally getting over the so-called "Parker Luck," and then "The Parker Luck" comes back with a vengeance to tear him down and force him to start all over again. (Hell, he even made a literal Faustian pact with Mephisto, whom T'Challa outwitted and overcame in Christopher Priest's Black Panther series, and if you go by the latest Avengers, that might have turned Spider-Man into a potential pawn for Mephisto to use against the Avengers.) Can't say as much for Wolverine, Captain America, or the Punisher, but Batman is currently having everything he's built up torn down and dismantled piece by piece thanks to Joker War, also resulting in the IRS actually looking into his alter ego's finances, meaning he can't use Wayne Enterprises as a piggybank for his vigilantism anymore. However, I do see the issue that when all those characters get torn down, they eventually get built back up as good as they were before, if not better --- and T'Challa doesn't seem to be getting the same as of late.

[Vanguard]

Except when It's their favorite hero like Spiderman, or Cap, or wolverine, then there's no limit to there building capabilities

Wolverine, a long time ago, was one of my favorites. Didn’t take me long to turn on him.

[chief12d]

To be somewhat fair, Daredevil constantly gets his life turned upside down and torn apart, starting with Frank Miller's "Born Again" and the subsequent writers that tried to follow in his footsteps, ultimately culminating in him going outright villain (albeit with help from demonic possession/corruption) in Shadowland, not to mention the current arc where he'll end up in jail due to having accidentally killed someone. Spider-Man has had a constant cycle of runs and arcs where it seems like he's finally getting over the so-called "Parker Luck," and then "The Parker Luck" comes back with a vengeance to tear him down and force him to start all over again. (Hell, he even made a literal Faustian pact with Mephisto, whom T'Challa outwitted and overcame in Christopher Priest's Black Panther series, and if you go by the latest Avengers, that might have turned Spider-Man into a potential pawn for Mephisto to use against the Avengers.) Can't say as much for Wolverine, Captain America, or the Punisher, but Batman is currently having everything he's built up torn down and dismantled piece by piece thanks to Joker War, also resulting in the IRS actually looking into his alter ego's finances, meaning he can't use Wayne Enterprises as a piggybank for his vigilantism anymore. However, I do see the issue that when all those characters get torn down, they eventually get built back up as good as they were before, if not better --- and T'Challa doesn't seem to be getting the same as of late.

And I think that's the key distinction. Putting a character through hell is not the issue. It's them not rising above it and actually getting something out that experience that's the problem. With the characters you're discussing (Batman, Spider-Man, etc.) they'll get their asses beat, lose a loved one, fail horribly, but they nearly always come out the experience better and don't dwell on it for years on end.

And even in the process of going through a rough storyline they'll still be convincingly competent and cool, like Batman in Joker War or Daredevil in Born Again. Hell, this is basically what T'Challa dealt with in New Avengers and why it's considered by some the best writing the character's gotten. He took constant Ls that entire run but the core of his character was for the most part maintained and by the end he "won" when Wakanda and everyone he cared about was restored.

The difference between T'Challa and those other characters is exactly what you pointed out. They get writers who understand a character can't be 98% deconstruction and 2% greatness. Batman always gets rebuilt and taken back to his status quo, not having entire runs centered around single events or stories from years prior and wallowing about his failure. Meanwhile T'Challa and characters like John Stewart are still complaining about stuff that happened years ago and aren't allowed to move on. They never seem able to reclaim their confidence or have stories that don't tie back to their biggest failures or defeats.

[Marvell2100]

To be somewhat fair, Daredevil constantly gets his life turned upside down and torn apart, starting with Frank Miller's "Born Again" and the subsequent writers that tried to follow in his footsteps, ultimately culminating in him going outright villain (albeit with help from demonic possession/corruption) in Shadowland, not to mention the current arc where he'll end up in jail due to having accidentally killed someone. Spider-Man has had a constant cycle of runs and arcs where it seems like he's finally getting over the so-called "Parker Luck," and then "The Parker Luck" comes back with a vengeance to tear him down and force him to start all over again. (Hell, he even made a literal Faustian pact with Mephisto, whom T'Challa outwitted and overcame in Christopher Priest's Black Panther series, and if you go by the latest Avengers, that might have turned Spider-Man into a potential pawn for Mephisto to use against the Avengers.) Can't say as much for Wolverine, Captain America, or the Punisher, but Batman is currently having everything he's built up torn down and dismantled piece by piece thanks to Joker War, also resulting in the IRS actually looking into his alter ego's finances, meaning he can't use Wayne Enterprises as a piggybank for his vigilantism anymore. However, I do see the issue that when all those characters get torn down, they eventually get built back up as good as they were before, if not better --- and T'Challa doesn't seem to be getting the same as of late.

All those guys have had their lives ripped apart. The differences is that they all got redemption arcs where they not only got their just due but they weren't pyrrhic victories. They actually beat down the villains who put them thru hell. BP doesn't get those opportunities. he just gets put thru hell and gets to deliver some bs speech.

[MoneySpider]

T'Challa, Shuri, Hank Pym, Dr. Doom, Tony Stark and a few others are all in the same intellectual weight class but each has a wildly different focus. Of the lot, Doom and Shuri are closest to Reed Richards and Lunnella in approach. They are, by far, the most dangerous minds on Earth, not T'Challa.

I cannot get down with that at all. T'Challa NOT being one of the most dangerous minds on Earth takes away a large part of the character for me. For me, for a character like T'Challa, being the most dangerous man alive and having the most dangerous mind on Earth go hand-in-hand. But that's just me.

[DigiCom]

Except when It's their favorite hero like Spiderman, or Cap, or wolverine, then there's no limit to there building capabilities

That must not apply to Bats, Spidey, DD, Wolverine or The Punisher.

Not as true as you might think. Spidey, more than any other, tends to get any positive growth erased due to the "Parker Luck". And DD (as noted by Huntsman Spider) tends to get his life turned upside down with depressing regularity. Frank has no growth to speak of for the most part, and I have no idea what's up with Logan.

I'll give you Bats, tho. They just did a "take him back to basics" arc in his book, and I give it a year until he has all his toys back.

[Redjack]

I cannot get down with that at all. T'Challa NOT being one of the most dangerous minds on Earth takes away a large part of the character for me. For me, for a character like T'Challa, being the most dangerous man alive and having the most dangerous mind on Earth go hand-in-hand. But that's just me.

there is a difference between "most dangerous" and "most lethal."

T'Challa is most lethal.

[Marvell2100]

Not as true as you might think. Spidey, more than any other, tends to get any positive growth erased due to the "Parker Luck". And DD (as noted by Huntsman Spider) tends to get his life turned upside down with depressing regularity. Frank has no growth to speak of for the most part, and I have no idea what's up with Logan.

I'll give you Bats, tho. They just did a "take him back to basics" arc in his book, and I give it a year until he has all his toys back.

Pete's life has been torn upside down and has always been put back together. Even in his worse moments. Aunt May dies(multiple times) and gets brought back to life. His first LI dies, he gets another. He marries Mary Jane, they have a child lose the child marriage gets ripped up and they still get back together. Peter gets beatdown but gets up gives as good as he gets. As many cycles as he goes through, Peter never stays down, never stays stagnant.

Can't say that about BP.

[Ezyo1000]

there is a difference between "most dangerous" and "most lethal."

T'Challa is most lethal.

But it's gotta go with the calling card "most dangerous man alive"

[Marvell2100]

there is a difference between "most dangerous" and "most lethal."

T'Challa is most lethal.

Give me lethal. Give me a T'Challa that can take out anyone, no matter how strong, smart or fast by using his mind and his skills.

Besides, just because he isn't the smartest person on the planet doesn't mean he's the dumbest person on the planet.

[Redjack]

Give me lethal. Give me a T'Challa that can take out anyone, no matter how strong, smart or fast by using his mind and his skills.

Besides, just because he isn't the smartest person on the planet doesn't mean he's the dumbest person on the planet.

Most Winning-est.

Believe it.

[Huntsman Spider]

Pete's life has been torn upside down and has always been put back together. Even in his worse moments. Aunt May dies(multiple times) and gets brought back to life. His first LI dies, he gets another. He marries Mary Jane, they have a child lose the child marriage gets ripped up and they still get back together. Peter gets beatdown but gets up gives as good as he gets. As many cycles as he goes through, Peter never stays down, never stays stagnant.

Can't say that about BP.

Maybe, though I'd mention that One More Day and Marvel spending the decade following that trying desperately to jam Peter back into the same old "swinging single" twentysomething character he was back in the day did cause Spider-Man to stagnate in the eyes of a lot of fans and readers, since a lot of his character development over the course of his married years (which now "never happened") was reversed in favor of depicting a Spider-Man that was --- in the infamous words of at least one writer --- "mentally 15." Yeah, his current writer Nick Spencer bought a lot of goodwill over the last two years by addressing, if not also reversing, a lot of that stagnation, though the current arc seems headed into some seriously deconstructive territory, as per all the "You'll never see him the same way again, and neither will he" solicitations. That being said, I do see your point about Spidey not remaining stagnant, as well as how he still benefits from a kind of editorial cushioning that won't let him fall below a certain threshold, unlike how the company unfortunately seems to be treating Black Panther. In that sense, I would agree with just about everyone here that since Black Panther is among the greatest, most iconic characters of the Marvel Universe, Marvel Comics as a company should (finally) act like it and start putting the same effort and quality into his comics and related appearances as they do with the others.

[Marvell2100]

Most Winning-est.

Believe it.

So much winning I can't contain myself!!!



Hey Bast!

[Marvell2100]

Maybe, though I'd mention that One More Day and Marvel spending the decade following that trying desperately to jam Peter back into the same old "swinging single" twentysomething character he was back in the day did cause Spider-Man to stagnate in the eyes of a lot of fans and readers, since a lot of his character development over the course of his married years (which now "never happened") was reversed in favor of depicting a Spider-Man that was --- in the infamous words of at least one writer --- "mentally 15." Yeah, his current writer Nick Spencer bought a lot of goodwill over the last two years by addressing, if not also reversing, a lot of that stagnation, though the current arc seems headed into some seriously deconstructive territory, as per all the "You'll never see him the same way again, and neither will he" solicitations. That being said, I do see your point about Spidey not remaining stagnant, as well as how he still benefits from a kind of editorial cushioning that won't let him fall below a certain threshold, unlike how the company unfortunately seems to be treating Black Panther. In that sense, I would agree with just about everyone here that since Black Panther is among the greatest, most iconic characters of the Marvel Universe, Marvel Comics as a company should (finally) act like it and start putting the same effort and quality into his comics and related appearances as they do with the others.

To quote Mr Terrific, all we want is "Fair Play."

[DigiCom]

To quote Mr Terrific, all we want is "Fair Play."

I can agree with that. Despite my earlier post, I cannot deny that T'Challa's lows are qualitatively lower than any of the other characters mentioned, but his highs are not only not proportionately higher, but on average much lower.

I cannot remember a BP arc (in the last several years, anyway) that ends on a clean moment of triumph. It's always pyrrhic or nuanced.

OTOH, I can easily recall several Spider-man or Daredevil arcs that ends with them swinging off into the sunrise.