Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Chesterfield]

No interaction with the fantastic four

No interaction with Doom.

No Rivalry with Namor

No BP vs Mephisto moment.

No Enemy of the State, Sturm Und Drang & SWAD type story.

No T'Challa Red Zone moment.

What a freaking waste.

They'll foolishly let Shuri do all of that....urgh! WHY?!?

[MindofShadow]

I feel like they're really going to run into a lot of problems with how overpowered they made Carol come off as in the last movie. Either they tone it down, limit her powers, or somehow come up with threats so powerful it suddenly isn't a cakewalk for her.

Yeah this will be kinda interesting what they do about her. Unless she is just off Earth forever and all her stories take place in space with other uber powerful villains.

They had to tone down Hulk and Thor and it made it believable that they couldn't just solve the problems on earth themselves but punching it hard.

But Carol is Superman tier right now. She can pull a Justice League Superman on any earth threat lol

[Frontier]

Yeah this will be kinda interesting what they do about her. Unless she is just off Earth forever and all her stories take place in space with other uber powerful villains.

They had to tone down Hulk and Thor and it made it believable that they couldn't just solve the problems on earth themselves but punching it hard.

But Carol is Superman tier right now. She can pull a Justice League Superman on any earth threat lol

Maybe they'll handle her like they did Vision and just...not have her do anything .

[Ezyo1000]

Continuity moves forward, what's going on in the present doesn't invalidate the past. This completely undermines the legacy system in super-hero comics as being a thing. You left out how T'Chaka was the Panther.

If Uncle Ben was Spider-man before he died and Peter took up the mantle he'd still be a Spider-man. Your focusing on the purposes of why T'Chaka is in the origins but ignoring vital facts about all the ways he changed T'Challa's life when he became king, like stepping into the mantle. Time continues in comics, just because something happened in the past didn't stop it from occurring. It's like saying Hector Ayala was never the White Tiger because he died and Angela del Toro took over. Hector dying in the past didn't stop him from being a White Tiger.



All my wording said was that Shuri became the Black Panther in the past, it's got nothing to do with the time length, that was your argument. The circumstances are besides the point because there are no "true" circumstances which solely dictate how a character joins a legacy. It's telling how the inaccuriaes about the legacies are ignored by others because this isn't about the facts is it? I'm not a regular here so I must be wrong.



Sure it is. T'Challa wasn't the BP when Kasper was in the costume, that was a plot point and he eventually was accepted as a successor by T'Challa before he left the mantle. That's a straw man about Shuri. Not every mantle has to have exact things occur to be accepted as legitimate, the details are a distraction from the real issue I was talking about - which is about what legacies are and that the Panther mantle is one of them.



Not every mantle change is permanent, many eventually go back to the most popular characters in their line. For Flash, it's Barry Allen, for Green Lantern it's Hal Jordan, for Black Panther it's T'Challa.



Does this scene mean nothing when it comes to legacies with BP?

There are three named modern BP's in the MCU: T'Chaka, T'Challa and Killmonger, do you deny this? There are many, many more implied BP's as spoken about in Wakanda's founding.



You're heavily implying that you are, and are denouncing any successor Marvel chooses before they have done anything. Yes, you are. That wasn't in dispute. Obviously, but when I bring that up it's bad for some reason. I'm one of them. Didn't say it was.



I was acknowledging that the comic Black Panther has more going on then T'Challa, which should be obvious but it isn't. Because the comic is Black Panther and the world is Wakanda, those are inconsequential facts. Except all that about T'Challa I never disputed, that's a straw man. When I said Wakanda the reference was to the country, not comics with it in the title. That was the popular mantra for the movie, tellingly it didn't have T'Challa in it he is a huge part of Wakanda but Wakanda is more then T'Challa - it's a country, he has friends, family and enemies there. Shuri not being BP right now is beside the point, she was in the past she didn't stop being a former Panther when she gave up the title, she became part of its legacy. I disagree. Her being Griot didn't stop her being a legacy Panther.



Sure it matters, some characters just don't get the popularity of others that doesn't erase their part of being legacies. Except when other people are protagonists in Black panther comics wearing the BP mantle, like Shuri. So why is acknowledging the legacy aspect of the mantle so controversial? Except when it is. T'Challa inheriting the BP mantle from his father is a literal plot point, without this T'Challa never becomes the Panther.

The idea that just because a star if a comic book is popular everyone who assumes the super-hero mantle they have is meaningless is baffling. This is how we got fandom wars over Hal Jordan vs Kyle Rayner, Kyle is the new guy so since he's not Hal he's nothing is wrong.



No, it doesn't - Shuri not being the Black Panther now doesn't mean she was never a Black Panther, by that logic Matt Murdock was never Daredevil since Elektra is Daredevil right now. T'Challa was also a Daredevil legacy, and so was Danny Rand. This fact has gone unspoken, I take it many don't see T'Challa as a Daredevil legacy.



I don't even know why I'm being attacked like this, when I agree that they should have recast T'Challa and didn't want Shuri to inherit the mantle. It's mindbloggling how acknowledging the mantle passes to people before and after T'Challa is a controversial statement and that Marvel isn't the devil for being worried about angering people who would be upset by a recast. As though that wouldn't cause people to be upset, whatever their reasons. No win situation you'd think.

Dude your comparing Hector who has actual publication history from the 70s up to the early 2000s who was the first white tiger, to T'Chaka, who didn't debut in Lee and kirby's FF introducing of the Black panther franchise as the lead but rather T'Challa who (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, it's been awhile since I read it) actually created the mantle to specifically test himself Against the FF, systematically beating each one of them to ensure he was prepared to take down klaw, after Which he was going to retire the habit but then decided not to..? Yes it's later retconned that T'Chaka was BP before T'Challa but there is no publication history behind it. It's literally a flash back or set up to him being killed. That's all you know about T'Chaka as BP. Even in the MCU T'Challa isn't a legacy character to T'Chaka Because all we see with T'Chaka as the BP is him kill his brother. When T'Challa is introduced in the MCU HE is the Black Panther. Not T'Chaka.

And no you are absolutely wrong, the black panther franchise form it's debut has always revolved around T'Challa. Wakanda is a backdrop. The comic didn't start with people roaming Wakanda and see the daily lives of the average Wakandan. It's strictly and always been around T'Challa. Again the majority of his publication history actually takes place outside of Wakanda so.

Like the comics, the movie introduces us to Wakanda.. through T'Challa, we see it when he gets there we explore it as he is going about his duties. T'Challa is the character not Wakanda. T'Challa is bigger than Wakanda, not the other way around. By your logic New York City is bigger than Spiderman, or Daredevil, or cage or the fF, or Ironman Cap etc etc. Pretty much every hero that resides in New York is but nothing about to NYC. The MU/MCU is basically just a expansive New York City comic universe.

Also your "T'Challa is a legacy to Daredevil" is flawed beige doesn't wear the mantle. In the stories the characters talk about T'Challa and they say it's not DD that they are up against but someone different. So now he didn't become a DD legacy, as he doesn't "wear the mantle" like you put it. He Looks and behaves like BP. That would be like claiming that T'Challa and Storm back on Hudlins run were legacies to the FF because they were going on adventures with Ben and Johnny when Reed and Sue where reconnecting after the events of CW, Which again, would be false

[Marvell2100]

I gotta say as a Sam & Rhodey fan.....y'all digging deep with those vibranium claws, lol!

<Ouch!>

Lol, no hate on Sam or Rhodey(although I don't like Don Cheadle as Rhodey).

I just hope they have Sam do more than just fly around and beat up on the normal redhshirts and give Bucky all of the impressive feats. Sam's gotta be able to go toe-to-toe with enhanced human like Steve or Bucky. If he can't hold his own then he's just a glorified pilot.

Rhodey should get some love in Armor Wars.

[Marvell2100]

Marvel Studios doing Secret Invasion and the chance to gloriously do SWAD...gone just like that. I don't think I can get over this.

We've gone from SWaD to SWaC(See Wakanda and Cry).

No Client arc.
No Sturm and Drang
No Most Dangerous man Alive
No Enemy of The state

Instead we're gonna get "What happened to the guy that was Black Panther?"

[XPac]

What RJ is getting at is T'Challa isn't a legacy character because the previous BPs before him did not jump start the franchise. When Lee and Kirby introduced the character it was T'Challa, not T'Chaka, Azzari Bashenga, etc that we were introduced to. It was T'Challa. It's always been T'Challa. Sure we have seen T'Chaka or Azzari or even syan in the habit. However they don't make T'Challa a legacy character Because he has been debuted as the first BP back on 1966.

No one is saying there won't be a legacy character for Black Panther in the MCU. The issue people are having is based around the legacy character taking the mantle and becoming the new faces of the franchise BEFORE T'Challas story has been told. People have waited decade's, their whole lives for T'Challa to appear on the big screen and have his story told and to be robbed of that under the guise of honoring Chadwick and Saying no one else can be T'Challa, is what's upsetting people.

No actor has complete ownership of a character nor do I think any actor is conceited enough to believe they and they alone are the only ones capable of playing the character and if they pass or something happens that character is now off limits to anyone else. I definitely don't see Chadwick doing that and given interviews where he said he wants the character to outlive all of us, that just reinforces that. To rob people that opportunity to see T'Challas story unfold, a character who's been around for 50+ years, likely to a character who's a supporting cast member who's been around for only 15 and has no notable or memorable story or anything attached to them, is just wrong.

T'Challa isn't a legacy character because hes the first. But the fact that the mantle of the Black Panther can be passed down means other Black Panthers are legacy characters... just not T'Challa himself. Shuri and Kasper would be the legacy characters of T'Challa.

But I certainly would agree the ownership of a character doesn't fall on the actor. If the MCU wants to tell more stories of T'Challa, they obviously can. More than anything, it's an issue of preference on their part. Fiege and Coogler can continue however they see fit. And whatever they choose is going to make some people unhappy. That being said, it's also important to note that not recasting now doesn't mean in theory they can't or won't down the line. They can still opt to recast T'Challa, just as they can opt to make Shuri Black Panther. They have options.

[Ezyo1000]

This is like saying Dick Grayson/Wally West/Kate Bisbop will always be a sidekick. I disagree.

Some of hall have a seriously limited view of what these characters are capable of. Very old fashioned in my eyes. Its not invalid but I dont totally agree with it.

Many of these characters can gold their own stories and even rogues galleries with the right writer. And the MCU jusy doesn't have the capability to be a carbon copy of a comic character. They don't have the luxury of people who never age or never die. So this kinda thing is going to happen, its awful that It had to be like this but it was bound to happen either via a death of a celeb or him dropping out like Chris.

I still think they aren't going to bring back a TChalla without Chad and I can respect that even if it hurts. Best bet we get an alt universe version.

There are some here and definitely those at Disney that aren't realising something. Why did the movie resonate so hard? Because people waited their entire lives, an entire demographic has waited their entire lives, to see themselves on the big screen like this. Powerful, excellence, no stereotypical bullshit, no inner city need white savior, no slave movie, no gangbangin. But royalty, power, Black Love, Black men and women shown as equally as equals. Representation not seen like this in any other movie. And the character that represents it all.

T'Challa. People have waited, and now disney is saying tough **** you don't get that. No interaction with Cap or strange or Tony, no SWaD. Any comic story you wanted to see adapted you don't get that. T'Challas hero journey? Nope here's the supporting cast who have no source material, no agency that isn't directly tied to T'Challa, no rogues, memorable stories because... THEY have decided that T'Challa and only him, cannot be replaced, Chadwick is the only person capable of playing him and so a character that has been around for this long is not allowed to continue to live on. And continue to inspire millions and we have to wait, assuming Marvel even reboots or comic book movies still are a thing, to get another opportunity to see him on the big screen. Which again is not even a guarantee. Comic book movies could easily fade out of popularity like westerns for the new draw to take its place.

That's why this is so upsetting to alot of people. This movie was more then just some comic book character. It's the first of his kind, first Black superhero ever, who isn't based on some racial bullshit. A King. The first big budget film not revolved around Black suffering and the character who drives that is not allowed to continue his story because.. they don't want to do respect Chad? He's the only one who can play him? That's all bullshit. I know Chadwick wouldn't want to rob people of T'Challa at hos expense on some guise of honoring him. That's why people arent okay with it, the higher ups at Disney haven't experienced what it's like to see that representation taking away from them because there will always be white heroes.

[XPac]

I feel like they're really going to run into a lot of problems with how overpowered they made Carol come off as in the last movie. Either they tone it down, limit her powers, or somehow come up with threats so powerful it suddenly isn't a cakewalk for her.

They have a sort of built in way to deal with Carol. He's off in space and they also call her in with situations that flat out need a Superman. Even in End Game she only came in at the very end... as long as they keep using her in that capacity in Avenger level threats she should be fine. It's only if they decide to over use her that it's a potential problem. It's not like Superman where you expect him to always be around.

I think power scaling is often a bigger problem for the lesser powerful characters rather than the more powerful ones, but as long as the bad guy has a few minions that people like a Hawkeye can occupy their time with, it's doable. Casual Movie crowds are a bit more forgiving wtih this sort of thing that hardcore comic fans anyways.

[Marvell2100]

This is like saying Dick Grayson/Wally West/Kate Bisbop will always be a sidekick. I disagree.

Some of hall have a seriously limited view of what these characters are capable of. Very old fashioned in my eyes. Its not invalid but I dont totally agree with it.

Many of these characters can gold their own stories and even rogues galleries with the right writer. And the MCU jusy doesn't have the capability to be a carbon copy of a comic character. They don't have the luxury of people who never age or never die. So this kinda thing is going to happen, its awful that It had to be like this but it was bound to happen either via a death of a celeb or him dropping out like Chris.

I still think they aren't going to bring back a TChalla without Chad and I can respect that even if it hurts. Best bet we get an alt universe version.

So T'challa can't exist because Boseman is dead? That makes no sense. T'Challa existed long before Boseman took the role so why should he be put on the shelf.

If people don't think that Boseman can be replaced as T'Challa, why do they think he can be replaced as Black Panther? Because comics? If that's the case then Kasper Kole is up next in the habit since he took over BP from T'Challa in comics way before Shuri. But I don't hear people calling for Kasper.

Give T'Challa his due. Steve, Tony, Cap, Strange and Carol will all have multiple solo movies. Hulk had 3 movies with 3 different Banners. But we can't give T'Challa multiple solos because people want to bury him and put Boseman's legacy in a box and put it on the back of the shelf.

That isht is just nonsense.

[Ezyo1000]

T'Challa isn't a legacy character because hes the first. But the fact that the mantle of the Black Panther can be passed down means other Black Panthers are legacy characters... just not T'Challa himself. Shuri and Kasper would be the legacy characters of T'Challa.

But I certainly would agree the ownership of a character doesn't fall on the actor. If the MCU wants to tell more stories of T'Challa, they obviously can. More than anything, it's an issue of preference on their part. Fiege and Coogler can continue however they see fit. And whatever they choose is going to make some people unhappy. That being said, it's also important to note that not recasting now doesn't mean in theory they can't or won't down the line. They can still opt to recast T'Challa, just as they can opt to make Shuri Black Panther. They have options.

I never argued that Shuri isn't a legacy character. Kasper is less legitimate though because he was never intended to be BP and was being used.

I will say that preference is wrong. It's basically telling people that the character isn't worth it. A character who shows us powerful representation of what we all should aspire to be, showing us we are more than just gang banging, drug slinging thugs, more then inner city slumming, need a white savior, or suffering through slave after slave movie, or racial injustice.

We are more that that, we have more to offer, and the higher ups are saying. No this character isn't worth continuing. We decided that his story isn't worth exploring further Because it dishonors the actor who played them.. What type of bullshit is that? Again unless you experience what it's like to wait a lifetime for this to have it taken away. This would never happen to Batman superman Spiderman, etc. Yet it's allowed to happen to T'Challa, who resonates with an entire demographic who has been constantly ignored. Shuri doesn't represent what T'Challa represents of we are going off comics she is a regression of progress.

Yes she is different in the MCU but she doesn't have the deep historical relevance and importance to her that T'Challa does have. It's extremely upsetting and people don't see the side of it. They associate Chad to T'Challa but fail to see the cultural and historical relevance and importance that the character Chadwick played represents. These characters don't die.

[Dboi654]

So T'challa can't exist because Boseman is dead? That makes no sense. T'Challa existed long before Boseman took the role so why should he be put on the shelf.

If people don't think that Boseman can be replaced as T'Challa, why do they think he can be replaced as Black Panther? Because comics? If that's the case then Kasper Kole is up next in the habit since he took over BP from T'Challa in comics way before Shuri. But I don't hear people calling for Kasper.

Give T'Challa his due. Steve, Tony, Cap, Strange and Carol will all have multiple solo movies. Hulk had 3 movies with 3 different Banners. But we can't give T'Challa multiple solos because people want to bury him and put Boseman's legacy in a box and put it on the back of the shelf.

That isht is just nonsense.

Long before he was born. Bless his soul but the character must go on.

[Marvell2100]

Long before he was born. Bless his soul but the character must go on.

Yeah, no shade at Boseman at all, much respect, but this crazy notion that he was so great that no one can ever play T'Challa is straight nonsense.

So instead we get Black Panther II: World of Wakanda with no T'Challa. Why do I want to watch a movie about Wakanda without T'Challa? Not interested.

[Overhazard]

Yeah, no shade at Boseman at all, much respect, but this crazy notion that he was so great that no one can ever play T'Challa is straight nonsense.

So instead we get Black Panther II: World of Wakanda with no T'Challa. Why do I want to watch a movie about Wakanda without T'Challa? Not interested.

There really is no reason outside of feelings to recast T'Challa. Recasting him is disrespectful to Chadwick, but going ahead with the movie anyway somehow isn't?

[superheat]

I can't wait to see war machine and iron heart show, t'challa can come back 5 to 10 years