Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Ezyo1000]

The way Coates went about it is fine imo. T'Challa had nothing to do with the formation of the empire other than sending those explorers into space, it's a commentary on the potential for Wakanda to become everything it hates and how T'Challa isn't with that.

It's an interesting idea, but it should've been preceded by a period of T'Challa expanding Wakanda's cosmic presence and guiding his civilization into the stars. Now we have a situation where T'Challa is forced to defeat an evil space version of Wakanda and turn them into some kind of colony, completely sidestepping any role he could've played in developing Wakanda into a space power.

The also lends to another problem. Apparently without T'Challa and his family Wakanda is basically no different then the west Because how easily they fall into colonization tendencies. It would of been better if they were skrulls who developed Wakandas culture after the events of SWaD. They assimilate to their conquerors and emulated their power and warrior Spirit. Which drives T'Challas desire to build a Wakandan space outpost. Abd it keeps his alpha clear of bullshit

[Cville]

The way Coates went about it is fine imo. T'Challa had nothing to do with the formation of the empire other than sending those explorers into space, it's a commentary on the potential for Wakanda to become everything it hates and how T'Challa isn't with that.

It's an interesting idea, but it should've been preceded by a period of T'Challa expanding Wakanda's cosmic presence and guiding his civilization into the stars. Now we have a situation where T'Challa is forced to defeat an evil space version of Wakanda and turn them into some kind of colony, completely sidestepping any role he could've played in developing Wakanda into a space power.

I'm hoping he sends his conscious back through time and has the first ship avoid the anomaly. That will make this final arc and Shuri solo non-canon.

[Redjack]

The way Coates went about it is fine imo. T'Challa had nothing to do with the formation of the empire other than sending those explorers into space, it's a commentary on the potential for Wakanda to become everything it hates and how T'Challa isn't with that.

It's an interesting idea, but it should've been preceded by a period of T'Challa expanding Wakanda's cosmic presence and guiding his civilization into the stars. Now we have a situation where T'Challa is forced to defeat an evil space version of Wakanda and turn them into some kind of colony, completely sidestepping any role he could've played in developing Wakanda into a space power.

nope.

it makes no sense for a culture built on DEFENSE and SELF ISOLATION to magically mutate into one of expansion and conquest.

it scratches a weird cultural itch some black folks seem to have but it runs exactly counter to the established culture of Wakanda.

Colonizers are the bad guys. Becoming the colonizers makes us what?

Sorry. Hard pass on space wakanda.

[Marvell2100]

nope.

it makes no sense for a culture built on DEFENSE and SELF ISOLATION to magically mutate into one of expansion and conquest.

it scratches a weird cultural itch some black folks seem to have but it runs exactly counter to the established culture of Wakanda.

Colonizers are the bad guys. Becoming the colonizers makes us what?

Sorry. Hard pass on space wakanda.

Nah, I don't see it that way. Exploring space is a scientific endeavor. In order to do that you need resources and establishing bases to explore further. Also Wakanda isn't the heavy isolationist country it used to be. And I'm sure that there are uninhabited planets, moons, asteroids that Wakandan can establish colonies on without conquering.

[DigiCom]

Well, if you believe Coates, the proto-Wakandans WERE colonizers (kicking out the Originators), so the whole defensive/isolationist thing was the exception, not the rule.

[chief12d]

nope.

it makes no sense for a culture built on DEFENSE and SELF ISOLATION to magically mutate into one of expansion and conquest.

it scratches a weird cultural itch some black folks seem to have but it runs exactly counter to the established culture of Wakanda.

Colonizers are the bad guys. Becoming the colonizers makes us what?

Sorry. Hard pass on space wakanda.

I wouldn't say it happened magically though. A squad of Wakandans were marooned in a strange, horrific corner of space, one far more dangerous and cruel than the conditions under which Wakanda Prime developed. The self-defense ethic eroded, in no small part due to a charismatic, greedy Wakandan who saw an opportunity to build their own dynasty in a culture that was being forced into becoming more warlike.

This splinter group goes against what Wakanda Prime represents and is in the process of getting defeated by T'Challa. He (like the audiences) understands that the empire is an aberration, a dark mirror of what Wakandans could become if they completely abandoned their belief in self-defense. Outside of the impressive scale of civilization they've built on the backs of alien slaves, the Intergalactic Empire of Wakanda isn't being exalted as something to aspire to. Its evil exists to affirm that T'Challa's morality and Wakandan non-intervention is the the right way forward.

[chief12d]

The also lends to another problem. Apparently without T'Challa and his family Wakanda is basically no different then the west Because how easily they fall into colonization tendencies. It would of been better if they were skrulls who developed Wakandas culture after the events of SWaD. They assimilate to their conquerors and emulated their power and warrior Spirit. Which drives T'Challas desire to build a Wakandan space outpost. Abd it keeps his alpha clear of bullshit

The Wakandans didn't "easily" fell into colonization tendencies imo. They were stuck in a backwater galaxy with a bunch of alien menaces. Unlike on Earth where Wakanda has maintained a decisive technological advantage over virtually every enemy they've faced, these Wakandans were dealing with invaders roughly on par if not superior to them tech-wise. Imagine if every year Wakanda Prime had to deal with a Skrull invasion. With limited numbers and less industrial capacity. And without a hyperintelligent warrior-shaman leading them.

That'll corrode the moral fiber of any culture, including Wakandans, because at the end of the day they're human. When pushed to extremes any culture will do barbaric, aggressive things in order to maintain their own survival, and that's what the Empire represents. Wakandans pushed to the brink who've taken their self-defense to extreme, fanatic lengths. And for generations they've been egged on by noblemen and more recently the gods of Wakanda themselves. I think it'd be a copout to have it so they were just Skrulls all along or something. The easiest way to erase or skirt around the story is to have it so T'Challa goes back in time or something and never sends the ship that gets caught in that anomaly.

[Cville]

The Wakandans didn't "easily" fell into colonization tendencies imo. They were stuck in a backwater galaxy with a bunch of alien menaces. Unlike on Earth where Wakanda has maintained a decisive technological advantage over virtually every enemy they've faced, these Wakandans were dealing with invaders roughly on par if not superior to them tech-wise. Imagine if every year Wakanda Prime had to deal with a Skrull invasion. With limited numbers and less industrial capacity. And without a hyperintelligent warrior-shaman leading them.

That'll corrode the moral fiber of any culture, including Wakandans, because at the end of the day they're human. When pushed to extremes any culture will do barbaric, aggressive things in order to maintain their own survival, and that's what the Empire represents. Wakandans pushed to the brink who've taken their self-defense to extreme, fanatic lengths. And for generations they've been egged on by noblemen and more recently the gods of Wakanda themselves. I think it'd be a copout to have it so they were just Skrulls all along or something. The easiest way to erase or skirt around the story is to have it so T'Challa goes back in time or something and never sends the ship that gets caught in that anomaly.

You got pages for that? From what I remember they took isolationism to the extreme and started enslaving other races. The extremes I remember in the opening narration boxes was they were stranded and starving.

[Redjack]

Well, if you believe Coates, the proto-Wakandans WERE colonizers (kicking out the Originators), so the whole defensive/isolationist thing was the exception, not the rule.

this, also, flies in the face of their established history and culture.

sorry, I'm just never getting on board with this line.

[chief12d]

You got pages for that? From what I remember they took isolationism to the extreme and started enslaving other races. The extremes I remember in the opening narration boxes was they were stranded and starving.

It was said in the first issue of the relaunch and repeated at several other points as well. The stranded Wakandans were "besieged" by deep space. They were low on resources and felt the only way to defend themselves was through conquering others.

[Cville]

It was said in the first issue of the relaunch and repeated at several other points as well. The stranded Wakandans were "besieged" by deep space. They were low on resources and felt the only way to defend themselves was through conquering others.

It says besieged by the whims of deep space. That could be anything. Doesn't mention being attacked by anyone. But I'd have to find the issue where their story is illustrated.

[chief12d]

It says besieged by the whims of deep space. That could be anything. Doesn't mention being attacked by anyone. But I'd have to find the issue where their story is illustrated.

Besieged generally refers to some form of attack. And then the next sentence says that their notion of self-defense transformed into one of war against more enemies. In the last page of issue #7 we're even told they tried to be peaceful in their harsh environment but suffered from several invasions. I think the implication is that early Wakandan colonists were attacked nonstop in the wild region of space they found themselves in and gradually became more warlike as their fledgling civilization grew.

[DigiCom]

The saddest part of this is that, thanks to the interminable Coates run retconning Wakanda right & left, there are more stories of Wakandans being as bad or worse than various conqueror cultures than there are of them being exceptional.

Distant past? Conquerors who drove out the indigenous inhabitants thanks to a deus ex machina.

Current day? Many Wakandans are subconsciously unhappy with their society, and only require a psychic push to revolt. And if the government is distracted, widespread rape and kidnapping.

In a sort-of future? Without someone reject their culture and build an empire based on slavery and brainwashing.

Of course, there's little chance of seeing exceptionalism in the future, what with the nation getting invaded every 3 months.

Maybe what we really need isn't a World of Wakanda book, but an "Ages of Wakanda" book showing times in their history when they WEREN'T pieces of crap.

[Cville]

Besieged generally refers to some form of attack. And then the next sentence says that their notion of self-defense transformed into one of war against more enemies. I think the implication is that early Wakandan colonists were attacked nonstop in the wild region of space they found themselves in and gradually became more warlike as their fledgling civilization grew.

I cant follow that. They were an exploration team looking for the source of the meteor. I think twelve or so in the picture of the mission briefing. They weren't going to establish a colony so I dont think they could hold out from any organized attack. Especially if they were already starving.

I think Coates might have intended for it to be a proper colony as potential was established in Hickmans ending, but that not the story he told.

If I said I was sailing and was besieged the the whims of the ocean, some might think pirates, but others might say storms, waves,....

[Steel Inquisitor]

nope.

it makes no sense for a culture built on DEFENSE and SELF ISOLATION to magically mutate into one of expansion and conquest.

it scratches a weird cultural itch some black folks seem to have but it runs exactly counter to the established culture of Wakanda.

Colonizers are the bad guys. Becoming the colonizers makes us what?

Sorry. Hard pass on space wakanda.

Defense and self isolation easily lead to colonisation, those aren't good traits for a welcoming people. It's why wakanda needed to break away from those tendencies in the modern world, which T'Challa explored because he knew he couldn't keep Wakanda hidden anymore. The established culture of Wakanda is hardly without problems of its own, because they're people. Even in Priest's run they had tribal disputes, and people have rebelled against the government in the past - that's how Killmonger got his cult. That's ignoring the horrible implications of being in the Dora Milaje as shown with Queen Divine Justice - she couldn't even be seen being friendly another man without being a pariah because of which family she belonged to. Wakanda has never been a perfect country.