T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2021

[Ekie]

They will just replicate the marketing strategy from the first one and people will still eat it up.

What pisses me off is these people who have never read a BP book in their lives tell me what is best for the franchise going forward. GTFO

Exactly. I'm not being an a-hole about this just because I'm going to miss out on tchalla. I'm obnoxious about it because these poor depictions, coupled with this untimely death, coupled with the choice to remove him his own franchise long-term all in the name of short-term social event type movie showings. If it wasn't just a social event to them and they actually cared about expanding and explaining the universe then we'd have Disney plus series that actually tell people who Shuri or Mbaku are rather than just that she's a black queen and Mbaku is funny. Disney plus stories about the other tribes in wakanda and the politics. Things we have been asking for decades to get in Comics but never got. Nobody can tell me we don't want to see this stuff and are just haters because I know it's not true I've posted in this formum long enough to know.

If Marvel's goal is to treat this franchise as a sideshow Unworthy of true focus (as evidenced by the lack of Disney Plus and the choice to try to explain wakanda in a 2 hour solo movie sequel) then a sideshow is what will get. No One Bank of all character to develop a video game about. No character capable of rising to Batman's level of fame or Spider-Man the way that Tchalla was headed. None of the perks,merch, and exposure. Not even a coherant storyline to follow from orgin to future because at some point (chads death and Tchallas replacement) the history of the story doesnt matter and we just started making it up as we go director to director...writer to writer ect.

[Frontier]

Basically. Like Frontier said T’Challa is also a hero. To be more specific I’d say he’s a king with a lot of superheroic tendencies. Regardless of how you define it T’Challa’s roles in life do not lend themselves to being a perfect moral being. The first film clearly set up an arc where he’d be forced to wrestle with the moral ambiguity of being a ruler. So perhaps we would’ve gotten a less “beacon of morality” T’Challa.

I think to some degree it also depends on the writer.

Priest writes a lot of moral ambiguity and greyness into his work and that was true for his writing on T'Challa (not that his T'Challa was a nominal hero or anything, but still), Hickman is kind of the same way, while other writers write a more conventionally Superheroic T'Challa like Hudlin or even Liss.

[Ekie]

I think to some degree it also depends on the writer.

Priest writes a lot of moral ambiguity and greyness into his work and that was true for his writing on T'Challa (not that his T'Challa was a nominal hero or anything, but still), Hickman is kind of the same way, while other writers write a more conventionally Superheroic T'Challa like Hudlin or even Liss.

I pushed for RedJack because his t'challa had flaws while at the same time staying true to his King first superhero second ideology (something coats failed miserably to grasp) . Competent to a fault. Flaws arent the issue because longtime readers know the flaws. The issue is New Black writers who want to reimagine the character because they never paid attention/appreciated him. That goes on the movie side and the comic side. They don't understand the character. And now we're getting world of wakanda the movie. Failed in the comics but they're hoping the Casual audience will carry them based on social markers rather than source material appreciation or even knowledge.

I have no doubt that coogler will make a watchable movie. But just like his first movie it won't be a black panther story

[Vordan]

How can you even call it Black Panther II without the damn Black Panther in it?

[Huntsman Spider]

I think to some degree it also depends on the writer.

Priest writes a lot of moral ambiguity and greyness into his work and that was true for his writing on T'Challa (not that his T'Challa was a nominal hero or anything, but still), Hickman is kind of the same way, while other writers write a more conventionally Superheroic T'Challa like Hudlin or even Liss.

Personally, if anybody (Coates or others) is going to take any sort of inspiration from Spider-Man in terms of how Black Panther/T'Challa is handled as a hero and a character, it should be as a reexamination of "with great power, there must also come great responsibility." That philosophy is actually a lot older than Spider-Man's existence as a character, hearkening all the way back to what is called "noblesse oblige," which would translate to the moral and societal obligations of those who come from noble birth and station to the "common people" and to the world around them. Maybe in simpler terms, "Those who have more must (or should) give more," and who'd have more to give than the king of the most technologically advanced country on Marvel's Earth, set in a continent that, like in real life, has been ravaged for centuries by colonialism and imperialism and in a wider world troubled by all kinds of threats and dangers to humanity as a whole? Of course, then it becomes a question of how he balances everything and everyone for which and to whom he is responsible or obligated as king and protector of Wakanda --- which is always great drama fodder, and as a head of state, there's realpolitik to consider and navigate as well, dealing with wary, skeptical, or outright hostile foreign powers, including the United States of America, which would complicate matters for his allies and (maybe) friends in the American superhero community if considering the wider Marvel Universe as a factor in his stories.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think to some degree it also depends on the writer.

Priest writes a lot of moral ambiguity and greyness into his work and that was true for his writing on T'Challa (not that his T'Challa was a nominal hero or anything, but still), Hickman is kind of the same way, while other writers write a more conventionally Superheroic T'Challa like Hudlin or even Liss.

The problem with Hickman though is that he lets plot dictate over character and/or internal logic.

I'm still baffled by a throw away scene that has Wakandian officials killed at the damn UN by Atlantis. The level of norms that shattered would have/should have brought the entire world down on Atlantis, but instead it was just a throw away scene.

[The Cool Thatguy]

No one wants to hear this, but even pointing back to the moment Coogler questioned how much he liked T'Challa initially. Its just hard for people to wrap their mind around a perfect character.

Why is it such a problem that writers come to love/like a character instead of love at first sight?

Seriously, I see the same thing brought with Priest.

So what if they didn't like him at first? Good!

A good writer is the worst enemy of their character. It's the only positive abusive relationship.

I didn't one whit about Panther until I randomly decided to try a Priest issue one day. I started around issue 30. Should I be banished from fandom for not starting on issue one?

[superheat]

BP 2 will be huge no matter what.

[Ekie]

Personally, if anybody (Coates or others) is going to take any sort of inspiration from Spider-Man in terms of how Black Panther/T'Challa is handled as a hero and a character, it should be as a reexamination of "with great power, there must also come great responsibility." That philosophy is actually a lot older than Spider-Man's existence as a character, hearkening all the way back to what is called "noblesse oblige," which would translate to the moral and societal obligations of those who come from noble birth and station to the "common people" and to the world around them. Maybe in simpler terms, "Those who have more must (or should) give more," and who'd have more to give than the king of the most technologically advanced country on Marvel's Earth, set in a continent that, like in real life, has been ravaged for centuries by colonialism and imperialism and in a wider world troubled by all kinds of threats and dangers to humanity as a whole? Of course, then it becomes a question of how he balances everything and everyone for which and to whom he is responsible or obligated as king and protector of Wakanda --- which is always great drama fodder, and as a head of state, there's realpolitik to consider and navigate as well, dealing with wary, skeptical, or outright hostile foreign powers, including the United States of America, which would complicate matters for his allies and (maybe) friends in the American superhero community if considering the wider Marvel Universe as a factor in his stories.

Cosigned.!

[Ekie]

Why is it such a problem that writers come to love/like a character instead of love at first sight?

Seriously, I see the same thing brought with Priest.

So what if they didn't like him at first? Good!

A good writer is the worst enemy of their character. It's the only positive abusive relationship.

I didn't one whit about Panther until I randomly decided to try a Priest issue one day. I started around issue 30. Should I be banished from fandom for not starting on issue one?

Learning to like the character is one thing. Ignoring the character's past and history to create something entirely new that you like is another

[Huntsman Spider]

The problem with Hickman though is that he lets plot dictate over character and/or internal logic.

I'm still baffled by a throw away scene that has Wakandian officials killed at the damn UN by Atlantis. The level of norms that shattered would have/should have brought the entire world down on Atlantis, but instead it was just a throw away scene.

Yeah, how does that even work? I mean, it'd be one thing if the UN security was otherwise completely helpless against the Atlanteans, but even then, there should have been geopolitical repercussions at the very least.

Cosigned.!

Thanks.

[Frontier]

I pushed for RedJack because his t'challa had flaws while at the same time staying true to his King first superhero second ideology (something coats failed miserably to grasp) . Competent to a fault. Flaws arent the issue because longtime readers know the flaws. The issue is New Black writers who want to reimagine the character because they never paid attention/appreciated him. That goes on the movie side and the comic side. They don't understand the character. And now we're getting world of wakanda the movie. Failed in the comics but they're hoping the Casual audience will carry them based on social markers rather than source material appreciation or even knowledge.

I have no doubt that coogler will make a watchable movie. But just like his first movie it won't be a black panther story

Redjack's Panther felt like the defender of Wakanda, first and foremost, but with the idealism and care for others that lends himself to being a Superhero who can team-up with The Avengers and fight for stuff that doesn't necessarily always pertain to Wakanda.

The problem with Hickman though is that he lets plot dictate over character and/or internal logic.

I'm still baffled by a throw away scene that has Wakandian officials killed at the damn UN by Atlantis. The level of norms that shattered would have/should have brought the entire world down on Atlantis, but instead it was just a throw away scene.

And then he had T'Challa (almost) kill Namor and then they end up teaming-up in Secret Wars and pretty much throw all their issues to the curb.

[Marvell2100]

He's a Superhero king. I don't see the need to deny one aspect over another.

I mean, his kingly garb is basically a skintight spandex costume on the surface.

Basically. Like Frontier said T’Challa is also a hero. To be more specific I’d say he’s a king with a lot of superheroic tendencies. Regardless of how you define it T’Challa’s roles in life do not lend themselves to being a perfect moral being. The first film clearly set up an arc where he’d be forced to wrestle with the moral ambiguity of being a ruler. So perhaps we would’ve gotten a less “beacon of morality” T’Challa.

T'Challa has heroic tendencies but he's not a superhero. He's practical and in many cases an ends justifies the means kinda guy.

[Frontier]

T'Challa has heroic tendencies but he's not a superhero. He's practical and in many cases an ends justifies the means kinda guy.

Does that necessarily prevent him from being a Superhero? It's just how he operates, but he generally does all the standard Superhero stuff. Usually the ends he attempts to get to benefit everyone involved even if they don't see it until the reveal of what he was trying to do.

I mean, he's leading and funding The Avengers at this point. How can he not be a Superhero and do that?

[Klaue's Mixtape]

Again no reason to think this is true. However, it would be baffling to have Doctor Doom in the movie, but no T'Challa. I feel for Ryan. If Feige really does want this to be Civil War in scale then he's got a tough task.

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