T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2021

[MouserGrey]

The only reason I made the comparison is because it seems to me that if, having read it, Coates fans would not see his run as so new and innovative. I am more interested in their views on this. I kam aware of long terms fans opinion on the run. Just hoping they might become more educated on actual comic Wakandan narrative and publishing history.

[MindofShadow]

The only reason I made the comparison is because it seems to me that if, having read it, Coates fans would not see his run as so new and innovative. I am more interested in their views on this. I kam aware of long terms fans opinion on the run. Just hoping they might become more educated on actual comic Wakandan narrative and publishing history.

It was a good comparison though, so worth the discussion lol. You know the others weren't gonna say anything.

McGregors T'challa/Monica relationship on panel >>>>>>>>>>>> Coates T'challa/Storm relationship as well

[Ezyo1000]

I do think there's definitely similarities, but I wouldn't push the comparison too far.

I do think the influence of McGregor can be seen on Coates' run if only because I feel like it's the first run to feature a dedicated map of Wakanda, which was something that was a big deal in Jungle Action. Coates also apparently spent a lot of time and effort planning his map, fwiw. I also think McGregor's run spent a decent amount of time contrasting a pre and post technological Wakanda (Hudlin created the retcon that Wakanda was always technologically advanced). While Coates' run is post-retcon, there are definitely influences in the messiness that follows from that society in flux. That being said, I would argue this messiness is actually more derived from Christopher Priest's run than McGregor.

I think the biggest point of comparison that most will think of is the comparative "weakness" of T'Challa. For most of the stories, he is caught flat-footed and is reactive. In both runs, the enemy is able to beat him up and beat him down. This is in comparison to Priest's run where there's usually a narrative distance through Everett K. Ross's narration that makes it seem that he's always known the answer and the audience is the one playing catch-up. Similarly, Hudlin's run he's just a badass superhero 90% of the time (it takes a lot of enemies in Who Is the Black Panther to get to the point that he's at all struggling).

However, I do think the comparison here is where you can start to see the main contrasts. In McGregor's stories, T'Challa is beat up so you can see the strength of his resolve he is overcoming. He doesn't have the same template as the post-Priest world where he's got super armor and all those things so McGregor is able to write him as simply a very athletic normal human. The heart-shaped herb giving him enhanced senses and a healing factor seems to be more important than any technology he might have. It's his humanity and overcoming the odds that shows his strength of character. In pretty much every story, he does it alone in the long-run.

Coates has to work with a T'Challa who has super technology and has been established as a super genius. To make up for this, most of his weakness starts as one of self-doubt. Physical weakness can theoretically be a factor but even in A Nation Under Our Feet, it's his doubts over the death of Shuri and the humbling from Cull Obsidian that lead to his initial struggles (that are amplified by Zenzi). Even early on, the book demonstrates that T'Challa will come out on top in any individual fight (I remember "Goon Slam Gary" being a source of controversy because he was able to lay a hit on T'Challa, but it's worth pointing out the next panel involved T'Challa blasting him away with his force push), it's just that his emotions are clouding his judgment to realize the individual fight doesn't matter. I think the other big factor is the weakness here is overcome, but it's not overcome through individual strength of will. Coates definitely views Black Panther as a team rather than an individual. T'Challa's intelligence is presented as him knowing how to use the team to save the day but, over and over again, it demonstrates that he needs to rely on others and not just himself.

Sorry about the long post, I guess those would be my thoughts.

This is a good post here. I would say that I don't think Mcgregor played down T'Challas super genius at all, in fact he had W'kabi possibly act like the audience as he was reacting to all the changes and technological advancements.

But T'Challas strength of will and ability to take a beating was Definitely his superpower in McGregors run, to the point of detriment imo and apparently his as well, but I understand what he was trying to get at I suppose, and I appreciate that he had T'Challa do some really cool feats like killing the T-Rex.

I think the issue with Coates is that his self doubt made sense at the start (or atleast was a reasonable enough storytelling excuse) for why he was off, however, when he was supposed to be more focused and seeing things clearly, Coates continued to have him do irrational and stupid things. Something Amman with his vast experience ruling, leading,and astute mind should of been overcoming in his story. But he drug it on for 5 years. And in the end never even had him overcome it. The final issue felt more like defeated resignation.

The problem with treating Black Panther like a team is that there is nothing that supports that. The black panther IS Wakanda, it's the nation's protector, it's not a team name, it's an individual. The problem also occurred that Coates was so determined to ensure that "T'Challa's intelligence is presented as him knowing how to use the team to save the day but, over and over again, it demonstrates that he needs to rely on others and not just himself" that he made T'Challa passive, reactive and lacking agency. It where people started commenting that his greatest super power was delegating.

And this was made worse when support/ side characters starred defeating the villains of the story or T'Challa needed large amounts of help to do so. It weakened T'Challa to the point where he wasn't just mentally weak on Coates area, he was also physically weak and had a lackluster commanding presence. It wasn't just goon slam Gary, but the fact that any redshirt was giving him issue and Coates in S2 tried to excuse it by saying that T'Challa was holding back because they were Wakandan, but then apparently failed to remember at the start he made it clear the people were not Wakandans at all.

So really i do like your assessment, but yes the similarities to me seem more treatment wise but the more unfavorable parts of Mcgregors run

[MindofShadow]

Digi or anyone else ancient (lol)


Was McGregor's style of "main heroes gets the piss beat out of him issue after issue but perseveres" the style of writing for the time period in comics or is that just a McGregor thing?

[chief12d]

It was a good comparison though, so worth the discussion lol. You know the others weren't gonna say anything.

McGregors T'challa/Monica relationship on panel >>>>>>>>>>>> Coates T'challa/Storm relationship as well

Yea it’s a worthwhile discussion because I think Coates definitely took inspiration from McGregor more than any other previous writer. Going by how he’s described certain opinions on BP he isn’t quite a big fan of Hudlin (never liked the BP-Storm romance) or Priest (doesn’t care for a proactive, shady T’Challa).

But yea like Mike said, he sees the BP character as more a team, an avatar for Wakanda and its many heroes rather than a singular character with the capabilities to solve a problem without an army of allies behind him. Hence why T’Challa is effectively incapable of defeating any major enemy by himself and why his main talent is delegating to side characters, who often have more agency or plot relevance than him.

Rather than giving T’Challa moments/individual stories centered around self-doubt or failure, like Priest and McGregor, Coates has made those defining characteristics of his iteration. Which makes it so T’Challa always has his back against the wall, never really rises above the circumstances, and can’t be a “fun” character in the vein of past takes because of how rare the levity is and how he never really seems to have any confidence.

It’s a dour take sure to appeal to people who either A. Don’t know better and think that’s how T’Challa is supposed to be written or B. Think past takes on T’Challa made him into a Mary Sue in need of humbling (which means they probably fit into the A category as well). It also has the intended effect of sidelining T’Challa so other characters (almost exclusively female) can take center stage, the MA in season 1, Storm in season 2, and then season 3 things centered around T’Challa again but was dragged out until the story devolved into boring Infinity War stuff in the final 10 issues or so.

[MindofShadow]

then season 3 things centered around T’Challa again but was dragged out until the story devolved into boring Infinity War stuff in the final 10 issues or so.

If I am remembering correctly (don't wanna go back and look)...

Monica blasted killmonger, Storm blasted Killmonger, Shuri hit killmonger with thunderballs chainball thing, bast distracted killmonger, zenzi transferred killmongers spirit

T'challa got the killing blow after being told to by Bast and treated like a child on his first hunting trip

lol

At least T'chalal got to kill Tetu via magic spear. Maybe t'challa pressed the wrong button on the spear. "****, I thought I set it to stun, not incinerate" lol

[Cville]

If I am remembering correctly (don't wanna go back and look)...

Monica blasted killmonger, Storm blasted Killmonger, Shuri hit killmonger with thunderballs chainball thing, bast distracted killmonger, zenzi transferred killmongers spirit

T'challa got the killing blow after being told to by Bast and treated like a child on his first hunting trip

lol

At least T'chalal got to kill Tetu via magic spear. Maybe t'challa pressed the wrong button on the spear. "****, I thought I set it to stun, not incinerate" lol

I believe Tchalla force blasted him during their fight.

But the should have just left him as the original Emperor. Bringing in Killmonger served no purpose except for movie synergy.

There was no traditional banter between the two or a sense that they've had many battles before.

[Marvell2100]

Digi or anyone else ancient (lol)


Was McGregor's style of "main heroes gets the piss beat out of him issue after issue but perseveres" the style of writing for the time period in comics or is that just a McGregor thing?

Ancients? I prefer seasoned.

That was pretty much the style then imo. Spidey(still does to this day), Cap, DD even Iron Man got their butts handed to them. The difference was that in the end they got the chance to beat their opponents(without assistance 95% of the time) and got some payback.

BP? It was a wash. Under Don Mac, BP took down rhinos and dinosaurs but had a problem with humans, some of them who were normal. Go figure.

[DigiCom]

Digi or anyone else ancient (lol)


Was McGregor's style of "main heroes gets the piss beat out of him issue after issue but perseveres" the style of writing for the time period in comics or is that just a McGregor thing?

To an extent, although Don went farther than most. I think it reached its apex with Born Again by Miller.

(I remember, in the '80s, discussing with a friend how each X-Man always got their costume shredded the exact same way every time.)

[KingNomarch]

I believe Tchalla force blasted him during their fight.

But the should have just left him as the original Emperor. Bringing in Killmonger served no purpose except for movie synergy.

There was no traditional banter between the two or a sense that they've had many battles before.

Tetu too. There was no reason to bring back Killmonger or Tetu. If he kept the Emperor the plot doesn't change 1 bit. But they got to keep that MCU synergy. Having Zenzi free Tetu made no sense either. She frees him from jail for what? Ditches him for Bast and then he dies without any lines. Am I forgetting something because I'm pretty sure that summed up his involvement.

[KingNomarch]

Ancients? I prefer seasoned.

That was pretty much the style then imo. Spidey(still does to this day), Cap, DD even Iron Man got their butts handed to them. The difference was that in the end they got the chance to beat their opponents(without assistance 95% of the time) and got some payback.

BP? It was a wash. Under Don Mac, BP took down rhinos and dinosaurs but had a problem with humans, some of them who were normal. Go figure.

McGregor put T'Challa through the ringer. There was not one story where T'Challa didn't end up half dead and then the fights with the big bads end in curbstomps in their favor. Didn't he get jumped by random people when he and Monica went shopping?

If you look at McGregor's run and then Gillis' mini, Priest's and Hudlin's run, there's no way you'd think it's the same character.

[Ezyo1000]

Yea it’s a worthwhile discussion because I think Coates definitely took inspiration from McGregor more than any other previous writer. Going by how he’s described certain opinions on BP he isn’t quite a big fan of Hudlin (never liked the BP-Storm romance) or Priest (doesn’t care for a proactive, shady T’Challa).

But yea like Mike said, he sees the BP character as more a team, an avatar for Wakanda and its many heroes rather than a singular character with the capabilities to solve a problem without an army of allies behind him. Hence why T’Challa is effectively incapable of defeating any major enemy by himself and why his main talent is delegating to side characters, who often have more agency or plot relevance than him.

Rather than giving T’Challa moments/individual stories centered around self-doubt or failure, like Priest and McGregor, Coates has made those defining characteristics of his iteration. Which makes it so T’Challa always has his back against the wall, never really rises above the circumstances, and can’t be a “fun” character in the vein of past takes because of how rare the levity is and how he never really seems to have any confidence.

It’s a dour take sure to appeal to people who either A. Don’t know better and think that’s how T’Challa is supposed to be written or B. Think past takes on T’Challa made him into a Mary Sue in need of humbling (which means they probably fit into the A category as well). It also has the intended effect of sidelining T’Challa so other characters (almost exclusively female) can take center stage, the MA in season 1, Storm in season 2, and then season 3 things centered around T’Challa again but was dragged out until the story devolved into boring Infinity War stuff in the final 10 issues or so.

The leader of the most technologically advanced nation on earth and arguably the most powerful military force on earth I lacks confidence and constantly relies on the ones around him sounds like the theme of a comedy action anime. But even then on most cases by the end the protagonist is confident and overpowered. Not T'Challa though, he is one of those anime that end with the protagonist never growing but **** just keeps happening to him and he is rewarded for his inaction

[Besouro]

Digi or anyone else ancient (lol)


Was McGregor's style of "main heroes gets the piss beat out of him issue after issue but perseveres" the style of writing for the time period in comics or is that just a McGregor thing?

But BP would win the fights except for Killmonger.

And the folks would who take BP through the ringer were mostly the main villains....No Goon Slam Barry stupidity from TNC were a single lackey woops BP.

What I liked about McGregor's BP going through the ringer was that BP wins the fight HIMSELF (except for Killmonger).

And of course the Tchalla/Lynne love story was pure Bliss.

I didn't mind the suit getting torn... it didn't have vibranium weave anyways. I see that whole pre-Priest era are BP/Tchalla challenging himself by not wearing a tech infused vibranium suit.

[Besouro]

Tetu too. There was no reason to bring back Killmonger or Tetu. If he kept the Emperor the plot doesn't change 1 bit. But they got to keep that MCU synergy. Having Zenzi free Tetu made no sense either. She frees him from jail for what? Ditches him for Bast and then he dies without any lines. Am I forgetting something because I'm pretty sure that summed up his involvement.

Well said...... Agreed!

[Cville]

But BP would win the fights except for Killmonger.

And the folks would who take BP through the ringer were mostly the main villains....No Goon Slam Barry stupidity from TNC were a single lackey woops BP.

What I liked about McGregor's BP going through the ringer was that BP wins the fight HIMSELF (except for Killmonger).

And of course the Tchalla/Lynne love story was pure Bliss.

I didn't mind the suit getting torn... it didn't have vibranium weave anyways. I see that whole pre-Priest era are BP/Tchalla challenging himself by not wearing a tech infused vibranium suit.

I think that was a problem for all the arcs with Coates. He had a overarching story, but no mini-bosses to keep up the action while the big plot played out. It was just random nameless goons.

Five galaxies worth of soldiers and the best he could come up with was a brainwashed Manifold.