Jason is the most loyal Robin

[Zaresh]

Jason killed. That is betraying Bruce and everything he stands for. Betrayal, by definition, is disloyalty.

Even if you go before the Red Hood you could argue that as Robin he killed Felipe Garzonas, the diplomat's son (although that is left a little ambiguous).

I'd actually argue that Jason is the ONLY Robin to be disloyal.

So, all the people that has killed in their caped career and are allied with Bruce, have betrayed Bruce, right?

I disagree with that criteria. It's not about not following Bruce morals and lines. Betrayal would be more than that. It would be putting Bruce in danger and breaking his trust with intent. It's a deeper thing, and it has a detached nature to it too.

What did Bruce during Identity Crisis, for example, felt like betrayal against his league allies.

Well, at least, for me.

[Rakiduam]

If we use a sports analogy the superstar who stays with one franchise his whole career is loyal
Jason's career as Robin was shorter but he never left the partnership

Terrible analogy, sports are business, even Messi leave the Barcelona in the end. You are saying Jason stay because never had the chance to leave, and that makes him loyal.

[Chubistian]

So, all the people that has killed in their caped career and are allied with Bruce, have betrayed Bruce, right?

I disagree with that criteria. It's not about not following Bruce morals and lines. Betrayal would be more than that. It would be putting Bruce in danger and breaking his trust with intent. It's a deeper thing, and it has a detached nature to it too.

What did Bruce during Identity Crisis, for example, felt like betrayal against his league allies.

Well, at least, for me.

I think it also depends on how much we take into account Jason's return to life. The Jason of Under the Red Hood was a villain and traitor. He attacked Bruce and his close ones and endangered their lifes. Jason in the New 52, on the other hand, at least what I read, seemed more like an outcast and occasional ally than a traitor.

[Chubistian]

Who was Robin the longest? Dick or maybe Tim now
They still quit and left Bruce for reasons

You can't mitigate that away with time served imo

You still haven't address that, once Jason came back to life, he didn't go with Bruce. He made his own identity and started fighting crime his own way. So, it's false that Jason didn't leave the Robin mantle and Bruce's side to pursuit a new role. He did, just like and Dick and Tim

[Zaresh]

You still haven't address that, once Jason came back to life, he didn't go with Bruce. He made his own identity and started fighting crime his own way. So, it's false that Jason didn't leave the Robin mantle and Bruce's side to pursuit a new role. He did, just like and Dick and Tim

Well, he couldn't come back to Bruce. There was a new Robin filling the suit. And Bruce didn't look for Jason once he left his grave (even when Bruce couldn't have noticed. But that omission of critical info by Talia, as usual). In Jason's eyes, Bruce didn't care much for Jason. Why coming back for him without a proper plan? Not to mention that he tried to prove Bruce that he was a skilled man. Enough that just puting a bomb into the batmobile to prove that Buce wasn't safe enough... well, wasn't enough. And so Jason went and trained for a year or two.

[The Kid]

Terrible analogy, sports are business, even Messi leave the Barcelona in the end. You are saying Jason stay because never had the chance to leave, and that makes him loyal.

Pretty much. That's old thinking. Conventional thought now pretty much accepts their is no loyalty in sports especially when franchises won't hesitate to be 'disloyal' if they think getting rid of a superstar will help them

[exile001]

What did Bruce during Identity Crisis, for example, felt like betrayal against his league allies.

You're thinking of Tower of Babel, where Ra's Al Ghul used his plans to take down the JLA and YES! Bruce absolutely betrayed them and their trust. For years. It was a whole thing and the point of the story (and subsequent arcs)!

So, all the people that has killed in their caped career and are allied with Bruce, have betrayed Bruce, right?

YES, obviously because Bruce's whole thing is not killing*! It's the very thing he trains each and every one of his sidekicks/partners to avoid and his his one big rule. It has come up a million times since the 70's when it was ingrained in stone as a driving force for the character.

*Well, that and excessive Bat-motifs.

I disagree with that criteria. It's not about not following Bruce morals and lines. Betrayal would be more than that. It would be putting Bruce in danger and breaking his trust with intent. It's a deeper thing, and it has a detached nature to it too.

Mate, you disagree with any criteria, including the very concept and definition of disloyalty itself, that goes against your stance to the point of absurdity. I just wanted to chuck my tuppence in for fun.

[Chubistian]

Well, he couldn't come back to Bruce. There was a new Robin filling the suit. And Bruce didn't look for Jason once he left his grave (even when Bruce couldn't have noticed. But that omission of critical info by Talia, as usual). In Jason's eyes, Bruce didn't care much for Jason. Why coming back for him without a proper plan? Not to mention that he tried to prove Bruce that he was a skilled man. Enough that just puting a bomb into the batmobile to prove that Buce wasn't safe enough... well, wasn't enough. And so Jason went and trained for a year or two.

I don't judge Jason's decision of not coming back; my point is that IT WAS a decision, just like Dick's decision (pre-COIE) of leaving Bruce's side to become Nightwing. Nothing against Jason btw, I like every Robin. I just don't buy the argument that Jason was the most loyal Robin

[Marvell2100]

Dick is fair more loyal than Jason has ever been. Just because Jason never left Bruce before he died doesn't make him loyal.

It just makes him dead before he had a chance to leave.

Dick his never left Bruce. He's stood by him through good and bad and even had to set Bruce straight a few times. What's more loyal than the friend who will tell you the truth no matter what, stands by you and will be there when you need them most.

[Frontier]

Dick is fair more loyal than Jason has ever been. Just because Jason never left Bruce before he died doesn't make him loyal.

It just makes him dead before he had a chance to leave.

Dick his never left Bruce. He's stood by him through good and bad and even had to set Bruce straight a few times. What's more loyal than the friend who will tell you the truth no matter what, stands by you and will be there when you need them most.

Tim never left too, as far as I'm aware. At least of his own volition.

[Marvell2100]

Tim never left too, as far as I'm aware. At least of his own volition.

Yeah, Tim's stood by Bruce too.

[Zaresh]

Tim never left too, as far as I'm aware. At least of his own volition.

He's probably the only one who never did in any continuity. Damian kind of did it in Rebirth's Batman Beyond timelines, I think. I guess. And Dick technically left his robin days by his choice pre-COIE. And then, Steph did-but-not, but she never took the mantle back once she was alive again.

That being said, I would say Dick is the most 'loyal' to Bruce, if nothing by just the sheer amount of self-harming and emotionally hurting situations that he has put himself in for Bruce. Like in Grayson's own run, cutting all ties with the rest of the clan, for example.

[Lady Nightwing]

Just a few things, Jason was a good Robin. I don't view it as betrayal that he went to find his mam, everyone in the family probably would have done the same thing.

Dick is loyal, Tim too. Having friction with your auld man and getting away to clear your head is not a betrayal.

Barbara is not disloyal for getting a job in Congress, there is a difference between loyalty and being obsequious.

All that being said Jason is not the most loyal Robin just because he died before he could spread his wings. Also after everything that happened when he returned as Red Hood, there is no credible argument to be made for his being the most loyal.

In a way, it could be said that Jason was the more loyal but not to Bruce himself but rather, to the ideal Bruce that Jason build in his head and came to idolize. The core of his conflict when he returned was the fact he felt betrayed because Bruce didn't avenge him. The whole thing about being the "Batman he couldn't be" is just an extension to that and depending on the writer and/or your perspective is just a way for Jason to justify himself going against the man he viewed as his dad.

I don't buy that Jason was more loyal to an Ideal Bruce. Bruce is a deeply flawed man but he does hold human life sacred. Jason at one point was running around with 8 heads in a duffle bag. Their views are not really compatible at all.

When did I said that? I didn't do. I said he wasn't unloyal.

But I'll explain my point of view on that. I disagree in a lot of points, included the definition of betrayal. I don't think he betrayed Bruce by the act of attacking them. He betrayed them, characters he barely had any contact with prior. But Bruce? Ironically, Jason, in his head, was sure he was helping Bruce in his work, making him realize of his faults, his faults by Jason's own image and ideals of how Bruce is and what he should be. I don't think that falls much in the betrayal category, not certainly in the intended betrayal.

And if we take into account all the times that he broke their mutual trust, we should also point all the other times he didn't. No matter if they were in the costume or not. He's loyal to Bruce. Has he broke that trust? He has, but I would argue that even so, he was still loyal to Bruce. Well, most of the time anyways.

You know when Jason betrayed Bruce, when he did actively and willy? During late Rebirth time, when he briefly aided Luthor. That not only broke their trust, and was a danger to Bruce. That literally put him against Bruce, actively, and not because he thought he was helping Bruce to be a better Batman.

How on earth is attempting to kill a man's children not a betrayal?! That's some insane mental gymnastics.

[Frontier]

He's probably the only one who never did in any continuity. Damian kind of did it in Rebirth's Batman Beyond timelines, I think. I guess. And Dick technically left his robin days by his choice pre-COIE. And then, Steph did-but-not, but she never took the mantle back once she was alive again.

That being said, I would say Dick is the most 'loyal' to Bruce, if nothing by just the sheer amount of self-harming and emotionally hurting situations that he has put himself in for Bruce. Like in Grayson's own run, cutting all ties with the rest of the clan, for example.

Tim too. He's said on numerous occasions he'd drop everything and be there for Bruce but Bruce usually doesn't take him up on it because he doesn't want to get in the way of Tim's life.

[Zaresh]

Just a few things, Jason was a good Robin. I don't view it as betrayal that he went to find his mam, everyone in the family probably would have done the same thing.

Dick is loyal, Tim too. Having friction with your auld man and getting away to clear your head is not a betrayal.

Barbara is not disloyal for getting a job in Congress, there is a difference between loyalty and being obsequious.

All that being said Jason is not the most loyal Robin just because he died before he could spread his wings. Also after everything that happened when he returned as Red Hood, there is no credible argument to be made for his being the most loyal.






I don't buy that Jason was more loyal to an Ideal Bruce. Bruce is a deeply flawed man but he does hold human life sacred. Jason at one point was running around with 8 heads in a duffle bag. Their views are not really compatible at all.




How on earth is attempting to kill a man's children not a betrayal?! That's some insane mental gymnastics.

It's not mental gymnastics. It's context.

For Tim, if I recall, he was Bruce's kid only in BftC. And then I doubt he actually wanted to kill him. The Hush scene was a retcon, which is something to consider too; and the Titans Tower fight was a trial, he was testing Tim's skills for his work and also delivering proof to Bruce that being Robin was dangerous. The Battle for the Cowl, well, that definitely could be a contender. But then again, he let Tim live. On purpose. He even tested if Tim had a pulse.

For Damian, he didn't know he was Bruce's kid. He barely met him when they fought, and Damian launched an attack on Jason when he was fighting Dick. Setting that awful public display afterwards with Damian in streaming was worse, if you ask me. He didn't uncover their ids, so there's that. But honestly, Morrison's Jason was awful enough that it wouldn't have surprised me if he did. He had plenty of chances to do so.

Now, fighting Dick, that's another one.

But Jason, I doubt he considered Dick all that close. At least post-Crisis. They barely interacted. If anything Jason saw him proffesionaly, as a former Robin, who was also better than him at being Robin.

For Jason, none of them had much of a personal tie to Bruce at the moment he attacked them. All but Dick, who didn't have a deep relationship with Jason, but did have a deep one with Bruce. So, I doubt you could think that Jason saw it as some betrayal in any of them but Dick's case.

Again, keep in mind, that for Jason, it may seem he was helping Bruce. It's not betrayal, not intended. He didn't do it thinking, "Ho ho, that sure will teach him a lesson! I'll show him what's to have me as an enemy. F Batman, he can go die for all that I care!" Betrayal has, at least for me, again, a detatchment component, and most of the time, an intent. Which is lacking for Jason in those events. In my opinion.