YIBAMBE! T’Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2022

[Marvell2100]

One would think. I miss when T'Challa's people were his biggest cheerleaders. Not his biggest haters.

Now they're likely to take one of those spears and shove it in his back.

[Emperorjones]

First, thank you, skyvolt2000, for the numbers.

I of course know what the numbers were, because like I say, I followed them for years because I had an interest in what everything was selling. It's just a curiosity of mine. Because I know when something that you like isn't selling well, it's not going to be around for very long. And on the flip side of that, if something that you don't like isn't selling well, then just wait it out, because it will soon be gone.

Either way, when someone questions me on the numbers, when I know what that they are, then I want them to go and find it for themselves so they will know too.

And thank you, DigiCom, for the numbers too.

So now when mention of numbers come up, everyone will now know.


Yeah, when it came to Priest, I don't believe he's ever written anything (that I've had an interest in reading, at least) that I thought was bad as in poorly written.

No, Priest is a great writer. Everything that I've read from him is smart and funny and clever. It was just what he was doing with the Black Panther wasn't all that interesting to me.

It was like, "this is kind of cool, but I really don't care." I wished that he had done something different that was more to my interest.

I believe if Priest's book had come maybe 10 years earlier I would have liked it more. But I was in my anti-super-hero phase then. And I was on my Vertigo trip.

The 90s and comics were a bad time for me. The 80s were cool. But in the 90s everything became so exaggerated and extreme. And shiny covers and all of that rah-rah.

It was like Common and "I Used To Love H.E.R."

When hip-hop was about "La-di-da-di, we like to party" it was cool. When it became about "flippin' switches and big booty b**tches" and "and bustin' caps" and all of that it wasn't that good to me.

I was one of those corny De La Soul dudes...



Comics kind of went that same way too.

And Priest's run came in at the tail end of all of that, but that damage had kind of already been done. But I gave his run a try. I stuck with it for about year, but ultimately I just wanted more than what he was offering. He was doing one thing and I was wanting something else.

And I've read about everything that he did during his run, and none of it looked all that interesting to me. So I don't feel like I missed out on anything.

Hudlin... the first six issues were how the cool kids used to say, "it was aiight." Then he started in on the build up to the wedding. I stuck around for that because I was curious on how he was going to pull it off. Turned out it was kind of a big bunch of nothing, I thought; the writing, that is... And then I kind of left after that. I wasn't going to keep spending my money on something that I didn't enjoy.

And like how you liked Hudlin right away, that's how it was for me and Coates. First page, boom, I'm there. I'm sold. This is the kind of Black Panther that I wanted. It instantly clicked.

And the reverse of that, with John Ridley, the first page was, "Nah... nope."

And I like John Ridley. I watched him for years when he used to come on MSNBC. I liked THE OTHER HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE. I liked THE NEXT BATMAN: SECOND SON. I like GCPD: THE BLUE WALL. I liked AMERICAN WAY: THOSE ABOVE AND THOSE BELOW.

Black Panther was just a bad fit for him, I think. And like I say, I was surprised he even became the writer, because I just assumed he was a DC guy. Because anytime he ever talked about comics before he became a comic book writer, he always talked about DC. And Black Lightning is his favorite character, I believe. So him writing a Marvel character was kind of weird to me. But anyway...

Anyway, yeah, everybody likes different things, at risk of stating the obvious.

And the next writer will be liked and vilified as per usual.

EDIT:

Priest had people that loved his stuff, and people that hated it. Hudlin had people that liked his run, and people that hated it. Same thing with Coates. And Ridley wasn't really around long enough. And the same thing will happen to the next writer.

When and how people come to comics can factor into what they gravitate towards. Sometimes you just aren't in a place to receive certain stories. I didn't really read Priest until after I had read a good deal of Hudlin. I had often seen how people would go after Hudlin by holding up Priest as the GOAT BP writer at the time. Eventually I gave it a chance, and suffered a bit through Ross, but I did like Priest's deft hand, and his more calculating T'Challa. His Black Panther felt the most like a head of a government to me than any of the other versions I've read or seen. I was hooked from What is the Black Panther with Hudlin, I found that book very absorbing. I didn't think everything was great with Hudlin's run, as someone else-I think it was Ezyo alluded to there could've been more (or better) challenges/challengers during Hudlin's run (though I appreciate even more now how much Hudlin liked the character and how he sought to prove why T'Challa was a great character, why he was A-List.

Coates didn't do it for me, but I was cautiously optimistic about Ridley because I really enjoyed the first volume of The American Way (I didn't get into the second, but I have bought it to reread one day) and I liked his X-Men like novel duology Those Who Walk in Darkness and What Fire Cannot Burn. However, that penchant for very flawed, self-loathing protagonists was there in that series, and it seems to be a theme that Ridley likes. I've liked his Batman work a lot more than his Black Panther work. My major quibbles with his Batman work is the pacing is too slow, his villains could be better, and I'm not sure if it's him or DC, but they keep Luke away from a book that often focuses on the Fox family (an aspect I like a lot). I did pick up Ridley's history of DC and the first issue of Blue Wall but I haven't read either. I do think the Batman stories, and more street-level heroes work better for him. Unlike Black Panther, I resubscribed to get more of I Am Batman.

[skyvolt2000]

When and how people come to comics can factor into what they gravitate towards. Sometimes you just aren't in a place to receive certain stories. I didn't really read Priest until after I had read a good deal of Hudlin. I had often seen how people would go after Hudlin by holding up Priest as the GOAT BP writer at the time. Eventually I gave it a chance, and suffered a bit through Ross, but I did like Priest's deft hand, and his more calculating T'Challa. His Black Panther felt the most like a head of a government to me than any of the other versions I've read or seen. I was hooked from What is the Black Panther with Hudlin, I found that book very absorbing. I didn't think everything was great with Hudlin's run, as someone else-I think it was Ezyo alluded to there could've been more (or better) challenges/challengers during Hudlin's run (though I appreciate even more now how much Hudlin liked the character and how he sought to prove why T'Challa was a great character, why he was A-List.

I read Hudlin's first jumped on with the "wedding" issue. I went back and got all the earlier issues and stayed till the end and the first issue of Shuri's BP run. Had to go back and get the rest later.
Hudlin's run got me to go get Priest and every other run before hand.

A good run can or should get you interested in looking for more.
Example
Cartoon Life of Chuck Clayton is the ONLY reason I now own over 300 Archie books (and almost every Chuck appearance in Archie at Riverdale High).
Miles is the only Marvel character whose every run I own. You don't get that with a bad book.

Coates didn't do it for me, but I was cautiously optimistic about Ridley because I really enjoyed the first volume of The American Way (I didn't get into the second, but I have bought it to reread one day) and I liked his X-Men like novel duology Those Who Walk in Darkness and What Fire Cannot Burn. However, that penchant for very flawed, self-loathing protagonists was there in that series, and it seems to be a theme that Ridley likes. I've liked his Batman work a lot more than his Black Panther work. My major quibbles with his Batman work is the pacing is too slow, his villains could be better, and I'm not sure if it's him or DC, but they keep Luke away from a book that often focuses on the Fox family (an aspect I like a lot). I did pick up Ridley's history of DC and the first issue of Blue Wall but I haven't read either. I do think the Batman stories, and more street-level heroes work better for him. Unlike Black Panther, I resubscribed to get more of I Am Batman.

In terms of doing justice to characters-he did that with History of DC.

There are some that did not because it did not have Jefferson and Malcolm bowing down to white heroes.

I would probably say if you have Ridley characters who were pretty much blank slates like Bumblebee and Herald-you would probably see a better story. I mean he could do justice to say N'Kano if Panther spinoffs were not ruined by the previous era.

[MouserGrey]

I started off with T'challa playing the Marvel RPG that came out in '83? Bought all of Kirby's run for $9. Found a couple JA and old Avengers. Don't remember which Mcgroger's mini came out about the same time either. But I read that too. It was difficult being a fan back then. Lol.

[dzub]

From Timeless #1, the new Kang book.
Article here -> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/namo...2023-spoilers/


Welp.....It's happening

[Isaac Lawrence]

wakanda is a utopia. it's as different from every other nation on earth as ASGARD is.

There is no racism in utopia.
there is no homophobia in utopia.
there is no misogyny in utopia.

which is why Shuri was raised by loving parents, in a loving family, in a loving system which not only accepted her gifts and wishes but encouraged her to explore them. Just as the society does with all of its members. the only restrictions placed on Shuri were those stemming from her being in the line of succession should she ever wish to challenge.

Any competition between the siblings (difficult when they are separated by a decade but, whatever) would come in the form of Shuri– the freer spirit– constantly poking holes in the stiff, by-the-rules, demeanor of her much older brother. Why does she do this? because, behind closed doors, T'Challa is just as much of a goofball as she is. It's only when he's in public, on show, that he puts on the mask of "king."

it's also why wakanda was never meant to be and should never be the focus of the Black Panther comic book. It's designed to be a BACKDROP, used only to provide nuance and flavor to the stories being told about the Panther.

jesus christ, this **** is not rocket science.

I would say it's all in how you want to challenge the Black Panther.

If you want the threat to come from within, then you obviously have to flesh out Wakanda and put some cracks in that utopia.

But if you want the threats to be external, then yeah, just leave the utopia intact and only deal with external threats.

Of course, writing utopias are hard. Because once you show how great everything is then what do you do, what's the story then, right.

O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world,
That has such people in't.

— William Shakespeare, The Tempest

(And check me out, I'm saying to a professional writer, "You know writing is hard, don't you?")

But yeah, if you don't really want to focus on Wakanda, then you just have everything come at Wakanda. Or you just have the Black Panther go to wherever, and to deal with whatever the situation may be at that placing of your choosing away from Wakanda.

I would say there's merit and fertile storytelling in both scenarios.

Internal threats -- "The Rise and fall of Rome" and that sort of thing.

And external threats -- ah, stuff. Namor or Doom attacks Wakanda.

Yeah, I got nothing.

When and how people come to comics can factor into what they gravitate towards. Sometimes you just aren't in a place to receive certain stories.

Oh yeah, no doubt.

And more on this at the end.

I do think the Batman stories, and more street-level heroes work better for him.

Yeah, I think those are his strengths.

It's kind of like Ed Brubaker. Crime stories seem to be what he obviously likes to write most, and is kind of what he writes best. That's his strength.

And like Ta-Nehisi Coates. He comes from the world of politics and race relations. He ain't really about that action. And his Black Panther reflected that.

Of course, that's the kind of super-hero comics that I like. The kind that "ain't really about that action."

I like super-hero comics that have enough of the "fantastic" element in it to grab my attention, but I don't really care if they punch anything. And actually I really like it when they don't punch something. It's endlessly more interesting to me. And the action is almost always the least interesting to me.

I hold up UNCANNY X-MEN #186 as the be all and end all of X-Men comics.



I again like how Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote Storm in BLACK PANTHER & THE CREW and think he's the best Storm writer. But when it comes to X-Men comics, UNCANNY X-MEN #186 is the alpha and omega and everything and in-between to me.

And I remember buying it. I was 14. It was .80¢ cents because the comic shop gave a 20% discount. And I remember riding home from the shop. It was raining outside and Prince's "Erotic City" was on the radio. And I remember getting home and reading it and thinking it was just the greatest thing ever.

And actually, to this day, I guess I subconsciously compare everything to that. In that, does it give me the same feeling that I got with UNCANNY X-MEN #186. And if it does, then I like it. And if not, then I don't.

So what you were saying about when and how someone comes to comics can factor into what they gravitate towards. Oh yes.

And I'll add to that, things that make a strong impression on you also plays a factor. Because something that stuck me when I was 14 still pretty much guides everything for me today.

It kind of is what it is...

[Redjack]

I would say it's all in how you want to challenge the Black Panther. etc...

yeah. no.

the book is called THE BLACK PANTHER, not TALES OF WAKANDA.

When you're writing a story about a main character, everything– and i mean everything– in that story orbits around that character, not the environment in which the character exists. T'Challa is the "POV character," not the country in which he lives.

If you want a TALES OF GOTHAM book, you retitle it and repurpose it. If you're telling the story of Batman, the city is only valuable insofar as it contributes to the story of BATMAN.

rinse. repeat.

[Ekie]

If Priest came out today he would be getting DESTROYED for having Everett Ross being such a lead voice of the comic. Thats not to say people wouldnt enjoy it for the overall quality, but he would be getting a lot of hate/side eyes from folks as well.

Especially early. People wouldnt have allowed it to have time to breathe and unfold like normal. There would be lots of judging.

Mostly by people on Twitter that don't even buy the comic book anyway.

[Ezyo1000]

The fem-toxicity and misogyny that Coates ham fistedly introduced into the franchise will remain for quite some time.

Marvel even changed Shuri's official bio on their main website to include the themes of it.

The daughter of T’Chaka and half-sister of T’Challa, Shuri spent much of her life living in the shadows of men

https://www.marvel.com/characters/shuri/in-comics

The damage is done and baked in. It's not a coincidence that a lot of these middle-aged women getting jobs at Marvel and connecting themselves to the franchise after the movie don't like the titular character. Coats run is what a lot of them read or how they were introduced thanks to his nonfiction pedigree

They even added this bit

"SHURI
The younger sister of T'Challa, the Black Panther, Shuri astounds with her brilliant inventions, often providing key components to her brother's battles"

Since when had she EVER done this? Never. They are implanting the MCU and throwing it into the 616 as if they are interchangeable.

[Ezyo1000]

wakanda is a utopia. it's as different from every other nation on earth as ASGARD is.

There is no racism in utopia.
there is no homophobia in utopia.
there is no misogyny in utopia.

which is why Shuri was raised by loving parents, in a loving family, in a loving system which not only accepted her gifts and wishes but encouraged her to explore them. Just as the society does with all of its members. the only restrictions placed on Shuri were those stemming from her being in the line of succession should she ever wish to challenge.

Any competition between the siblings (difficult when they are separated by a decade but, whatever) would come in the form of Shuri– the freer spirit– constantly poking holes in the stiff, by-the-rules, demeanor of her much older brother. Why does she do this? because, behind closed doors, T'Challa is just as much of a goofball as she is. It's only when he's in public, on show, that he puts on the mask of "king."

it's also why wakanda was never meant to be and should never be the focus of the Black Panther comic book. It's designed to be a BACKDROP, used only to provide nuance and flavor to the stories being told about the Panther.

jesus christ, this **** is not rocket science.

It shouldn't be such a hard concept. Remember when Hudlin had Shuri struggling to cope with her first kill and T'Challa comforted her? Showing genuine care for his sisters well-being?how she was able to do whatever and go wherever she wanted without issue?

Ironically, the ones who transplanted her "being on the shadow of men" were Black women. Her second run was so shitty and ooc for her that one of her biggiest fans Realdealholy (whenever they are) HATED it and dropped straight facts about the issues. It was Black women (mich like the latest black male writers) who are transplanting the **** on these characters to create dysfunction. Completely going against the whole reason the BP franchise was created in the first place. THEY are saying "Look how bad Wakanda treats its women, people, LGBTQ, etc!" Even though they are the ones doing it, just so they can critique and tear down T'Challa. It's freaking self sabotage and it's dumb as hell. They have a chance to tell stories of black EXCELLENCE, and choose dysfunction instead

[Ezyo1000]

From Timeless #1, the new Kang book.
Article here -> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/namo...2023-spoilers/


Welp.....It's happening

If Marvel finally let then bury the hatchet and go back to being respectful Monarchs and occasional allies... I would be 100% cool with that. This rivalry is played out and dumb at this point. Hickman should have nut up and let T'Challa kill Namor... Then bring him back with the stone when he saved the 616... And just told them they don't need to fight anymore because everyone killed on the flood, the warring and ultimate destruction of both nations have been brought back to life and peace can now be made.

[Username taken]

They even added this bit

"SHURI
The younger sister of T'Challa, the Black Panther, Shuri astounds with her brilliant inventions, often providing key components to her brother's battles"

Since when had she EVER done this? Never. They are implanting the MCU and throwing it into the 616 as if they are interchangeable.

Exactly.

Shuri was NEVER T'Challa's "Q" and there's no reason to shoe-horn her into that role.

Broadly speaking, I'm not really a fan of creative types throwing vapid political issues into their work.

The whole "gender war" thing isn't really a thing IMO. I live in the real world and a lot of social media discussions just don't reflect what's happening outside. I'm pretty sure most of us here are fairly progressive but things need to make sense and there is context to every situation. A creator can't just apply every single aspect of their personal politics to their work, blend it, and pour it out while ignoring context, that's pretty much what led to Coates run being very, very problematic.

To be clear, I am not saying that misogyny isn't a thing (I 100% agree that we live in a patriarchal society and world) but a strong, powerful man isn't automatically equal to misogyny. To retroactively treat Shuri's situation as being "in the shadow of men" in Wakanda is terribly misguided and weird. I mean, Shuri has been Black Panther and Queen of Wakanda before (it was she that actually got Atlantis levelled despite T'Challa's protests, heck, she even exiled him after that mess), she wasn't in anyone's shadow, she had always been doing her own thing.

[Frontier]

From Timeless #1, the new Kang book.
Article here -> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/namo...2023-spoilers/


Welp.....It's happening

Will Namor call out T'Challa and hate on him while helping him too?

[Agent Z]

He has had plenty of chances to rip DC a new Azz and has taken the high road.

He criticized writers who wrote Black Panther before he did, calling them disrespectful of Stan Lee. He's bashed writers for "turning Steel into Iron Man", claimed that Denny O'Neil was the only writer who made Wonder Woman interesting, called modern female characters like Kamala Khan childish, etc. Priest has no problem speaking his mind about what pisses him off. This is the guy who wrote a Justice League story about Wonder Woman being blackmailed into going on a date with a villain and then wrote an essay about how DC's meddling ruined the story.

[Mantis-Ray]

Exactly.

Shuri was NEVER T'Challa's "Q" and there's no reason to shoe-horn her into that role.

Broadly speaking, I'm not really a fan of creative types throwing vapid political issues into their work.

The whole "gender war" thing isn't really a thing IMO. I live in the real world and a lot of social media discussions just don't reflect what's happening outside. I'm pretty sure most of us here are fairly progressive but things need to make sense and there is context to every situation. A creator can't just apply every single aspect of their personal politics to their work, blend it, and pour it out while ignoring context, that's pretty much what led to Coates run being very, very problematic.

To be clear, I am not saying that misogyny isn't a thing (I 100% agree that we live in a patriarchal society and world) but a strong, powerful man isn't automatically equal to misogyny. To retroactively treat Shuri's situation as being "in the shadow of men" in Wakanda is terribly misguided and weird. I mean, Shuri has been Black Panther and Queen of Wakanda before (it was she that actually got Atlantis levelled despite T'Challa's protests, heck, she even exiled him after that mess), she wasn't in anyone's shadow, she had always been doing her own thing.

Ya know the funny thing about that statement is that since the Dora's are a thing, that means Shuri would have grown up surrounded by plenty of female role models.

Plus family-wise her father died when she was young so she was largely raised by her mother, and Hunter was presumably distant so T'Challa was probably one of the few major male figures in her life.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure how valid the whole "shadow of men" applies when you have a major organization in the setting comprised entirely of women. Especially since the little bride to be bit of the Dora's are quietly ignored so you basically you have a crack squad of badass amazons in charge and take no **** from anyone.