YIBAMBE! T’Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2022

[BlackClaw]

All this does is break my heart over never getting the drive the main BP book.

NONE of this **** would even be being argued right now. EVERYBODY would have been happy.

Peter Parker constantly gets Parker luck in fiction but T’Challa is the one that constantly gets it in real life. It’s terrible.

[Marvell2100]

Ok, why wouldn’t one want a story about modern monarchy? Sounds like good grist for the mill to me. How T’Challa reconciles that might be a good story?

I suppose he’s less competent as he questions himself.

Cap was sublimated by Brubaker’s pursuit of Bucky, and to a lesser extent Sharon, but there again it might not be everyone’s cup of tea.

It just feels a wee bit dramatic to conclude “they” are trying to emasculate your favorite character. And I suppose that’s a legit reason for the hate I sense here. But to return to Woke analogies it still feels … bad, I’m sorry.

All we can do is compare how T'CHalla is being handled now compared to how he's been in the past.

There's always room for growth in a character but it shouldn't be based on the writers' own biases and misconceptions about a character that they don't understand which has been happening with T'Challa. In a fictional setting, a monarchy can be good or bad but a certain writer approached it like it was a terrible form of gov't.

And the difference with Cap and T'Challa is that Steve has 600+ issues of stories to do character analysis and even share that with his supporting cast. T'Challa doesn't have that luxury and there isn't another BP solo title on the market where he doesn't have to split time with that same supporting cast.

Like I said, too many writers diminish T'Challa to promote their agendas.

[tliscord]

Peter Parker constantly gets Parker luck in fiction but T’Challa is the one that constantly gets it in real life. It’s terrible.

I’m confused, real life?

[Marvell2100]

All this does is break my heart over never getting the drive the main BP book.

NONE of this **** would even be being argued right now. EVERYBODY would have been happy.

You aren't the only one with a broken heart. A lot of us aren't happy right now.

It's a shame that you aren't getting your shot with a BP solo and you deserve to have that chance.

[tliscord]

All we can do is compare how T'CHalla is being handled now compared to how he's been in the past.

There's always room for growth in a character but it shouldn't be based on the writers' own biases and misconceptions about a character that they don't understand which has been happening with T'Challa. In a fictional setting, a monarchy can be good or bad but a certain writer approached it like it was a terrible form of gov't.

And the difference with Cap and T'Challa is that Steve has 600+ issues of stories to do character analysis and even share that with his supporting cast. T'Challa doesn't have that luxury and there isn't another BP solo title on the market where he doesn't have to split time with that same supporting cast.

Like I said, too many writers diminish T'Challa to promote their agendas.

Finally! Writer’s with agendas. I absolutely understand where you’re coming from on this topic now. T’Challa is a victim of writers (truth!). Priest understood him, Coates didn’t and thus sublimated to a Mary Sue, woke agenda… or is that fake woke, it’s still not registering in my simple mind.

[Marvell2100]

Using terminology like “Mary Sue” sounds intellectually lazy, at best. At worse, it’s simply hatefilled and evocative, and you’re an angry boy. I personally enjoyed Priest’s run, as I did those early Jungle Action issues ( weird title tho’). I’m beginning to wonder if this thread’s love fest isn’t more a conclave of mean hurtful fanboys, and a disingenuous hate for different creator perspectives than I thought. That’s ok too I guess but attributing that hurt as some type black writers conspiracy of love is something I might find haldol useful if I met you in the ER.

If you don’t like Coates’ writing, cool, but the paranoia that black writers are up for gangbanging you is a tough victimization for me to understand.

I think you're coming in on the tail end of a lot of conversation that has gone on for years. This isn't the first time we've talked about this and this isn't a thread full of hurt fanboys. People have laid out comprehensive issues with Coates BP other than "he not badass enough". I'm not going to go through the exhaustive list again because the thread would get derailed.

The one thing that is important for any fictional character is that they stay true to who they are and if there are going to be drastic changes, it had better be a good reason other than a writer saying, "I don't like it".

[Marvell2100]

Finally! Writer’s with agendas. I absolutely understand where you’re coming from on this topic now. T’Challa is a victim of writers (truth!). Priest understood him, Coates didn’t and thus sublimated to a Mary Sue, woke agenda… or is that fake woke, it’s still not registering in my simple mind.

No, Coates didn't make T'Challa a mary sue. He thought T'Challa was already a mary sue and that Wakanda was misogynistic and tried to make changes based onthose misconceptions.

It's like when people call Cap a fascist because he wears the colors of the flag or they read about him in an X-book.

[BlackClaw]

I’m confused, real life?

Meaning that on the meta side of things T’Challa constantly seems to get screwed over whether it be with writers like Coates who clearly don’t understand the character or with the real life tragedy of Chadwick Boseman’s passing. Meanwhile Spider-Man constantly gets put through the ringer in fiction but on the meta side, home run after home run whether it be the MCU or the recent video games.

[tliscord]

I think you're coming in on the tail end of a lot of conversation that has gone on for years. This isn't the first time we've talked about this and this isn't a thread full of hurt fanboys. People have laid out comprehensive issues with Coates BP other than "he not badass enough". I'm not going to go through the exhaustive list again because the thread would get derailed.

The one thing that is important for any fictional character is that they stay true to who they are and if there are going to be drastic changes, it had better be a good reason other than a writer saying, "I don't like it".

I can appreciate all the work everyone has invested here. Doesn’t make my observations any less valid I’m afraid. But I do think as a late observer, it seems at least nominally clear that the gargantuan volume of introspection here still has elements that can be traced to “I don’t like it”, and unfortunately leaning into the I don’t like him as a writer, Marvel is failing me, and finally rumbling off into the void of wokism and Mary Sueism. But hey we’re comic book fans.

[tliscord]

Meaning that on the meta side of things T’Challa constantly seems to get screwed over whether it be with writers like Coates who clearly don’t understand the character or with the real life tragedy of Chadwick Boseman’s passing. Meanwhile Spider-Man constantly gets put through the ringer in fiction but on the meta side, home run after home run whether it be the MCU or the recent video games.

Honestly I majored in philosophy, became a physician so you’d think I’d know about meta, but I’m wondering if I’m too old to grasp your meaning. Sorry. Was the meta of Boseman his early colorectal cancer? Phenomenally tragic, as is the million souls dead from COVID19, but I’m misunderstanding your use of meta. Overwhelmingly sad? How does the meta of Boseman compare to the meta of a comic book character?

[Marvell2100]

I can appreciate all the work everyone has invested here. Doesn’t make my observations any less valid I’m afraid. But I do think as a late observer, it seems at least nominally clear that the gargantuan volume of introspection here still has elements that can be traced to “I don’t like it”, and unfortunately leaning into the I don’t like him as a writer, Marvel is failing me, and finally rumbling off into the void of wokism and Mary Sueism. But hey we’re comic book fans.

There's a difference between, "I don't like it!" and "I don't like it for this reason..." which has been the case in this thread.

And the many of the criticisms are valid whether people agree or not. But again, I don't want to turn the thread into another Coates-fest so I think I'll stop the train here and get off that subject.

[Vordan]

Finally! Writer’s with agendas. I absolutely understand where you’re coming from on this topic now. T’Challa is a victim of writers (truth!). Priest understood him, Coates didn’t and thus sublimated to a Mary Sue, woke agenda… or is that fake woke, it’s still not registering in my simple mind.

Heh as a white guy who has asked black friends to explain it myself I think I can explain. “Fake woke” refers to how black straight men get getting shafted in favor of black women or black LGBT. The reason is that a lot of “leftists/progressives/whatever you want to call them” are the only ones pushing for rep outside of the white default, but from their perspective the straight black man is still an agent of the “patriarchy” or whatever. So it’s more “progressive” to replace a black straight man with a black woman or a gay black man, and for Black Panther in particular there’s anger because a lot of the Twitter crowd accuses anyone who isn’t all gung ho for Shuri to replace T’Challa as being misogynistic. Fans of Black Panther are annoyed at how writers come in and use the character and his mythos to prop up their own agendas (pushing for black women) in a way that comes at T’Challa’s expense. T’Challa loses his smarts so that Shuri can be more relevant. Storm gets to walk all over him because a black man standing up for themself gets accused of “toxic masculinity”. Coates in particular did this a lot, he put rape camps in Wakanda (which makes T’Challa look incredibly incompetent and idiotic), instead of solving the problem themselves he had the Wakandans all pray to Storm to save them, he wrote T’Challa as constantly second guessing and doubting himself because being confident or assertive as a man was “toxic”, etc.

In short Black Panther fans are tired of having to be the franchise that carries everyone in terms of representation. They want T’Challa to be the main character of his mythos again since he’s the one who made the whole thing popular in the first place, and they want to see Black Panther on the big screen again because we’ve seen other major heroes like Batman and Spider-Man get recasted, so saying the character has to die with Chadwick is aggravating because it’s burying all the hard work Chadwick did to make the character into something bigger than him.

[tliscord]

No, Coates didn't make T'Challa a mary sue. He thought T'Challa was already a mary sue and that Wakanda was misogynistic and tried to make changes based onthose misconceptions.

It's like when people call Cap a fascist because he wears the colors of the flag or they read about him in an X-book.

Actually I’m going to apologize because I’m unclear what Mary Sue denotes. As to Cap, we’ll I have some experience with the comics, including those days of old pouring over the letters pages. Can’t remember too many fascist comments. Most of the old negative comments wondered why he wasn’t beating the crap out of liberal protesters (Vietnam era, again showing my age). I’ll go back and re read Coates’ comments and thoughts on taking the mantle of authorship on BP, I may have missed his oblique comments pertaining to T’Challa as Mary Sue, or it’s equivalent whatever that may be. Thanks for the homework.

[Marvell2100]

Actually I’m going to apologize because I’m unclear what Mary Sue denotes. As to Cap, we’ll I have some experience with the comics, including those days of old pouring over the letters pages. Can’t remember too many fascist comments. Most of the old negative comments wondered why he wasn’t beating the crap out of liberal protesters (Vietnam era, again showing my age). I’ll go back and re read Coates’ comments and thoughts on taking the mantle of authorship on BP, I may have missed his oblique comments pertaining to T’Challa as Mary Sue, or it’s equivalent whatever that may be. Thanks for the homework.

Many people who don't like BP referred to him being too smart, he can't beat this character because of reasons, he and Wakanda are perfect and can do no wrong hence they used the term mary sue when describing him. Some of these same people never read much BP and were basing their opinions on what other people were saying in other threads.

As far as Cap, go back and read comments about AvX in the X-forum where you will see fascist tossed around a lot when talking about him.

[tliscord]

Heh as a white guy who has asked black friends to explain it myself I think I can explain. “Fake woke” refers to how black straight men get getting shafted in favor of black women or black LGBT. The reason is that a lot of “leftists/progressives/whatever you want to call them” are the only ones pushing for rep outside of the white default, but from their perspective the straight black man is still an agent of the “patriarchy” or whatever. So it’s more “progressive” to replace a black straight man with a black woman or a gay black man, and for Black Panther in particular there’s anger because a lot of the Twitter crowd accuses anyone who isn’t all gung ho for Shuri to replace T’Challa as being misogynistic. Fans of Black Panther are annoyed at how writers come in and use the character and his mythos to prop up their own agendas (pushing for black women) in a way that comes at T’Challa’s expense. T’Challa loses his smarts so that Shuri can be more relevant. Storm gets to walk all over him because a black man standing up for themself gets accused of “toxic masculinity”. Coates in particular did this a lot, he put rape camps in Wakanda (which makes T’Challa look incredibly incompetent and idiotic), instead of solving the problem themselves he had the Wakandans all pray to Storm to save them, he wrote T’Challa as constantly second guessing and doubting himself because being confident or assertive as a man was “toxic”, etc.

In short Black Panther fans are tired of having to be the franchise that carries everyone in terms of representation. They want T’Challa to be the main character of his mythos again since he’s the one who made the whole thing popular in the first place, and they want to see Black Panther on the big screen again because we’ve seen other major heroes like Batman and Spider-Man get recasted, so saying the character has to die with Chadwick is aggravating because it’s burying all the hard work Chadwick did to make the character into something bigger than him.

This is a thing? Black women are replacing black men in literature? I gotta get out more.

And that white default button must be around here somewhere.

I got a black friend too. He doesn’t seem to lose too much sleep over the sublimation of his gender. I’ll ask him though. He’s pretty smart. Maybe he really doesn’t like me ‘cause I’m a progressive liberal whitey. ****, but he does still let me buy him a beer after work occasionally.