Is villainy defined solely on one's actions? Or does intent play a role? Namor > Red Skull?

[Marvell2100]

I wonder if the same folks that support Namor would feel the same about Bishop

I had the same thought exactly.

[Marvell2100]

The situations aren't really the same.

Bishop nuked innocents to kill someone because he thought it would save his future and because he thought their realities would be undone if he could alter the past. But that's impossible, because the past can't be altered that way. Those realities were as real as his own, and even if he did kill Hope, his future would still be a **** hole, and all the people he killed would still be dead. It wouldn't undo anything, it'd just lead to a different future on Earth-616.

Namor is destroying Earths to save universes. He's getting concrete results, saving countless lives (albeit by taking lives), whereas Bishop was simply taking lives with no hope of undoing the damage or saving people as he believed.

They're both still killing billions in the belief that they are saving their worlds. Neither can undo the damage done. No lives are coming back.

[ratcatbo]

intent matters a lot but as the saying goes hell is paved by good intchons

[Mark]

I do simply for the fact that we're talking about two different time frames. Bishop's whole argument was that Hope might trigger a mutant holocaust in the future many years from now. Namor is literally watching another Earth speeding towards his own. Bishop had a greater amount of time to avert his disaster and therefore had more options available to him. Plus, given Cable's account that Hope would have a beneficial affect on his own timeline everyone was sure there was another way. Just raise her right and everything would be cool. Either way, there was time to avert the disaster.

With the incursions there is no time, and no one has an answer. Either do this right now or everything dies in the next few hours. The only thing you can do is buy time to figure it out.

Which doesn't do a lot of good for the ones killed. The legal term is mala in se and mala prohibita, meaning things that are wrong on their face and things that are wrong because they are against the law. There is a difference. Two other legal terms that apply are mens rea and actus rea, meaning the criminal intent and the criminal act. These four terms are something of a bedrock as far as legal responsibility goes. In this case Namor had both the criminal intent and committed the criminal act of something that on its face was mala in se. The Model Penal Code states in part that murder occurs when 1, "The defendant causes the death of another human being and 2, it is committed purposely or knowingly."
Yes it can be argued that Namor didn't want to do it and would have done something else, but he did it. To the billions dead his intent was to kill them so that others would live. This is the cute little trap that Hickman has shoved the heroes into, stripping them of any pretense of nobility or honor and just scouring them down to the bare primitive who will do what ever he has to so that he can survive. If Namor hadn't pushed the button and the standard mu and the Earth of the GS had exploded who is to say that other heroes on other world still wouldn't have solved the incursion before the next one? To Namor that didn't matter, even if the incursions were stopped later what he considered important would still be dead. So he chose the selfish route and therefor he is a murder and the Illuminati are accessories before and after the fact.

Laws of course are completely irrelevant here, this is marvel, these are the 'good guys' so there won't be much of a consequence for what has happened. The worst Namor and the others will have to face is some sort of lame redemption mini series. Life is too cheap and marvel is far too cynical that ending it really has long term consequences.

[Imraith Nimphais]

intent matters a lot but as the saying goes hell is paved by good intchons

So true. I remember the time of the Crusades...a glorious era, indeed.

Not to be outdone by the Witch-hunts. Unforgettable.

Oh. And that oft-mentioned little scuffle in the Middle East, currently....

[Exciter]

If Namor hadn't pushed the button and the standard mu and the Earth of the GS had exploded who is to say that other heroes on other world still wouldn't have solved the incursion before the next one? To Namor that didn't matter, even if the incursions were stopped later what he considered important would still be dead. So he chose the selfish route and therefor he is a murder and the Illuminati are accessories before and after the fact.

It’s not just the two Earths, but their entire universes. Countless lives beyond each Earth would have been snuffed out. Namor saved incalculably more lives than were lost. If the incursions were stopped later, it would be irrelevant to the two universes that are already dead. Moreover, the incursions were solved for the rest of the GS universe, which is now safe from the threat of incursions because their earth is gone. The facsimile Rannians, Thanagarians, Tamaraneans, and the rest of the entire universe are probably happy they're not dead.

Also, Namor is a head of state. He has an obligation to his people. In the real world, America targets “enemy combatants” and regularly also cause the deaths of numerous innocent people that may happen to be around that enemy combatant when the bomb drops. Obama isn’t brought up on murder charges, because the thought is the homicide was justified. If it’s either us or them, a head of state owes it to his constituents to choose “us.”

[Mark]

No, I don't agree. Going on that anyone who's the head of state would have immunity from consequences. There was no war declared, Namor killed when had no right to kill. His intent boils to 'I'll kill them so what I love won't be killed.' While this is different from say Thanos who's intent probably boils down to 'I'll kill them because I enjoy the ego boost I get from killing those less powerful than myself, thus proving myself more powerful which I need to keep doing, oh and I'll be saving my home universes too.' The intent is the same even if the motivation is slightly different. Pure, savage survival without a hint of civilized thought. The exact opposite of what the marvel heroes have -or had until AD- stood for.
Ultimately intent doesn't matter to the victim be he one or a trillion; the end result is pain and death and the persons responsible are mostly going to skip away from it. Reed and Tony at least if I read the solicits correctly and the most I think Dr. Strange is going to suffer is a redemption mini. I don't think there is any compelling desire for any sort of justice among the marvel staff, at least not in this story. I can only imagine that Hickman must really not like the DC heroes that much since as I've noted we've yet to see Namor and Thanos ripping apart say the Equestria of My Little Pony or the Earth where the Smurf's live, he seems to want to keep this focused on marvel heroes murdering DC facsimiles.

It’s not just the two Earths, but their entire universes. Countless lives beyond each Earth would have been snuffed out. Namor saved incalculably more lives than were lost. If the incursions were stopped later, it would be irrelevant to the two universes that are already dead. Moreover, the incursions were solved for the rest of the GS universe, which is now safe from the threat of incursions because their earth is gone. The facsimile Rannians, Thanagarians, Tamaraneans, and the rest of the entire universe are probably happy they're not dead.

Also, Namor is a head of state. He has an obligation to his people. In the real world, America targets “enemy combatants” and regularly also cause the deaths of numerous innocent people that may happen to be around that enemy combatant when the bomb drops. Obama isn’t brought up on murder charges, because the thought is the homicide was justified. If it’s either us or them, a head of state owes it to his constituents to choose “us.”

[dragonmp93]

No, I don't agree. Going on that anyone who's the head of state would have immunity from consequences. There was no war declared, Namor killed when had no right to kill. His intent boils to 'I'll kill them so what I love won't be killed.' While this is different from say Thanos who's intent probably boils down to 'I'll kill them because I enjoy the ego boost I get from killing those less powerful than myself, thus proving myself more powerful which I need to keep doing, oh and I'll be saving my home universes too.' The intent is the same even if the motivation is slightly different. Pure, savage survival without a hint of civilized thought. The exact opposite of what the marvel heroes have -or had until AD- stood for.
Ultimately intent doesn't matter to the victim be he one or a trillion; the end result is pain and death and the persons responsible are mostly going to skip away from it. Reed and Tony at least if I read the solicits correctly and the most I think Dr. Strange is going to suffer is a redemption mini. I don't think there is any compelling desire for any sort of justice among the marvel staff, at least not in this story. I can only imagine that Hickman must really not like the DC heroes that much since as I've noted we've yet to see Namor and Thanos ripping apart say the Equestria of My Little Pony or the Earth where the Smurf's live, he seems to want to keep this focused on marvel heroes murdering DC facsimiles.

Well, to be sincere, besides of asking the Living Tribunal or the One Above All for help; the Phoenix and what whatever boosted the Scarlet Witch's powers are the only alternatives left until Namor's methods are the only thing to do.

[Emma's Midriff]

They're both still killing billions in the belief that they are saving their worlds. Neither can undo the damage done. No lives are coming back.

I guess the difference between the two situations can be found in what would have happened had the two not done what they did.

With Bishop, those people would all be alive and kicking.

With Namor, two universes would be gone.

There's your answer.

[Marvell2100]

I guess the difference between the two situations can be found in what would have happened had the two not done what they did.

With Bishop, those people would all be alive and kicking.

With Namor, two universes would be gone.

There's your answer.

You're saying this as if I disagree with what Namor did. I've said countless times that he played his role and he did what had to be done. It doesn't change the fact that he killed billions same as Bishop who did what he felt was right. I already had my answer but thanks anyway.

[Emma's Midriff]

You're saying this as if I disagree with what Namor did. I've said countless times that he played his role and he did what had to be done. It doesn't change the fact that he killed billions same as Bishop who did what he felt was right. I already had my answer but thanks anyway.

But, again, you can't really equate the two, as the consequences of Bishop not doing what he did would have been positive, but the consequences of Namor not doing what he did would have been catastrophic.

Do you see what I'm saying?

[Ascended]

There's no reason to wait for an Incursion. They can talk to multiple other Earths, continuously, before one of these even starts.

As for the topic: Intent matters, but a bad thing is still a bad thing, even if done for good reasons. And morality is never, ever an end-sum game. Just because more people survive from an act doesn't make that act morally cool. Namor still committed genocide, and that tarnishes his soul, and that in turn makes his universe worse. His universe would have been better off dying.

They're both still killing billions in the belief that they are saving their worlds. Neither can undo the damage done. No lives are coming back.

No, the lives on the Great Society's earth are gone forever. But the lives of their universe and the 616 get to keep living; a countless sum beyond the roughly seven billion lives Namor took.

Was Namor's an evil act? Damn right it was. It was genocide, and the rest of the Illuminati are certainly accessories to the crime. But Namor's actions are also the lesser of two evils. If he had not pulled the trigger, countless beings from across two whole universes would be dead. He saved more lives than he took, and while that does not excuse or condone his actions, it still makes his actions *more* right than just letting everything die before its time.

Its a rock and a hard place situation where there is no right choice. It's either blow up a world to save two whole realities and hope you buy enough time to find a solution, or allow every single thing in these two realities to die because "nobility."

It seems to me, that in this particular case, saving two universes at the cost of one planet and your own soul is as right a choice as there is.

[Marvell2100]

But, again, you can't really equate the two, as the consequences of Bishop not doing what he did would have been positive, but the consequences of Namor not doing what he did would have been catastrophic.

Do you see what I'm saying?

What I'm saying is that they both killed billions and that's not something that's going to be easily forgivable no matter the reason. Steve is already gathering the Avengers to go after the Illuminati. And judging by the NA preview pages, Hyperion is not going to be happy with the Cabal, no matter their reasons.

Both Bishop and Namor acted because they thought they were saving worlds. No matter what the intentions they destroyed worlds and both apparently with little regret.

[Marvell2100]

No, the lives on the Great Society's earth are gone forever. But the lives of their universe and the 616 get to keep living; a countless sum beyond the roughly seven billion lives Namor took.

Was Namor's an evil act? Damn right it was. It was genocide, and the rest of the Illuminati are certainly accessories to the crime. But Namor's actions are also the lesser of two evils. If he had not pulled the trigger, countless beings from across two whole universes would be dead. He saved more lives than he took, and while that does not excuse or condone his actions, it still makes his actions *more* right than just letting everything die before its time.

Its a rock and a hard place situation where there is no right choice. It's either blow up a world to save two whole realities and hope you buy enough time to find a solution, or allow every single thing in these two realities to die because "nobility."

It seems to me, that in this particular case, saving two universes at the cost of one planet and your own soul is as right a choice as there is.

You're arguing as if I said Namor was wrong. I never did. I just said he killed billions.

[Mark]

You could blow up your own world. That would also have stopped the incursion.

No, the lives on the Great Society's earth are gone forever. But the lives of their universe and the 616 get to keep living; a countless sum beyond the roughly seven billion lives Namor took.

Was Namor's an evil act? Damn right it was. It was genocide, and the rest of the Illuminati are certainly accessories to the crime. But Namor's actions are also the lesser of two evils. If he had not pulled the trigger, countless beings from across two whole universes would be dead. He saved more lives than he took, and while that does not excuse or condone his actions, it still makes his actions *more* right than just letting everything die before its time.

Its a rock and a hard place situation where there is no right choice. It's either blow up a world to save two whole realities and hope you buy enough time to find a solution, or allow every single thing in these two realities to die because "nobility."

It seems to me, that in this particular case, saving two universes at the cost of one planet and your own soul is as right a choice as there is.