T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2023

[Toonstrack]

Yes and No. Banks's Culture actively meddles with other races. As I understand it, he didn't like the Prime Directive at all.



He didn't really explore it, though. It was a generic sci-fi setting & basically a backdrop for his "Wakandans turned colonialist as soon as they were cut off from their homeland" idea.



What all of those concepts have in common is: "T'Challa is put in a situation where he's not in control, and is never in control". I mean, look at your examples.:

T'Challa's a bad king because he can't stop corruption.
T'Challa is a bad king because he can't protect his kingdom
T'Challa is a bad king because as soon as his subjects leave his direct control, they turn imperialist. Also, he needs to be nerfed to function on a larger scale.
T'Challa is a bad king because he has spies.

Literally every story we've seen since Coates started is "T'Challa sucks at his job, and needs to be replaced."

And now, what do we have? "T'Challa is such a bad king, there's an entire city that needs protection because Wakanda doesn't have competent law enforcement."



Brand new villains are good. Villains who can threaten him are fine. What I want to see is an arc where T'Challa is COMPETENT. Not a sad sack running around willy-nilly trying to play catch up while his "supporting" cast talks about how bad he is and how bad he should feel about it.



That's called bad writing, my friend.

The funny thing about the Priest era... the era that many (myself included) consider the character's peak? T'Challa usually loses. Oh, he defeats the bad guy eventually, but he ALWAYS has to fight for it. It's just that his plans WORK.



"No outside world stuff" is the problem. There are a lot fewer ways to write internal threats that don't boil down to "Wakanda is just as screwed up as the rest of the world, if not more so." Which is an odd choice to make if you want to "explore Wakanda". As I hinted at above, Ewing's premise STILL makes T'Challa look bad, because apparently the city NAMED AFTER HIS FATHER is in such bad shape, he has to become a vigilante to protect it. It's basically "rape camps" in a less extreme form (I hope). Either it goes to pot REALLY quickly, or the whole thing happened under his watch.

Bottom line: Nobody is saying T'Challa has to be "Catgod" and immediately defeat every threat. But is it too much to ask that we get ONE writer who treats him as someone with a clue?

I know it can be done. Our esteemed Mr. Thorne did it in 22 pages.

Yeah but that premise also had wakanda getting invaded by an outside threat as part of a tie in. It was a rock solid one shot but it wouldn't sustain a long form story.

I wouldn't blame other colonies rebellion against tchalla on him, even if the writer gave that vibe. Hes a king, not a dictator. He is strict snd firm, but he does not suppress freedom, he suppression violence and violent indignation. If a group of wakandans rebel against him, that's on them, not him. Now that could be communicated better in the actual book, this recent one has him get blamed for everything, but I dont feel Coates specifically was trying to say he was bad because bad things happened. I think Coates was trying to criticize the monarchal system itself by exposing cracks in its ideology based on real life events that went similar ways under monarchies. Whether or not he did that GOOD ... is another thing

O think you can have bad things happen in wakanda without Tchalla being made to look bad. This is a world where every character has iron man level tech, is well educated connected and intelligent. It only takes one to try and take down what TChalla has built. It can be done well.

[Toonstrack]

Where did I say T'Challa wasn't allowed to have detractors? The problem is that for the last 8 years all these pet characters are detractors, none of them have any legitimate complaints, as they are either hypocrites (the MA, folasade) or they are completely unaware of the world they live on and come off as hyper nationalist (Tosin) and all of them STILL have added nothing to the mythos.

I find it funny that you are trying to reduce my argument To not liking Tosin because he is a dick when I have said my reasons for why and him being a dick is only a small part, not even really a big deal by itself. Again, first impressions are what makes or breaks a character. Every character has potential to be Great, and they need good stories and a writer to make it happen. Tosin has had none of those. His character is completely unlikeable because of the shit he says and no one, especially those who know T'Challa or T'Challa himself, have corrected him, his backstory is convoluted and dumb, and while hos initial design was kinda cool, it's clear that it's just the habit but no mask. So not even a unique look. Vegeta to T'Challas Goku? Nah, dude suits the role of Yamcha, the one who's the first to get his ass beat

Tohsin has been corrected though. Its brief but it does happen. Gentle just told him that he was unworthy to ever lead wakanda because he doesn't understand what tchalla does. Gentle is pretty much the last tchalla hype man left lol

[Frontier]

I think still saying Wakanda has no interest and no character at this point is a little bit biased. The fact is, a lot of people bought into his world and and is environment as unique as it is, as well as him. The afrofuturist utopia you described, that appealed to a lot of people as this character has entered the mainstream. Theres really no denying that at this point the concept of a place like wakanda has had on pop culture since the movie and this whole marketing push. It gets name dropped in music. People call themselves "wakandans" on social media or make it as their location. People wish it were real. Even meme culture features it. Its very much one of rhe most well known and popular fictional locations in the last decade of entertainment.

So the question then is what do you do with that in relation to the character of TChalla. You can separate them, but why would you? Thats weakening his power and putting him in an inferior spot? You can market them together but one or the other has to be threatened to do so. It is an interesting balance there, and I don't think it's all bad to have wakanda be attacked or surprise people with a seedy underbelly. I think its going to rely heavily on nuanced execution though.

It would be nice if it wasn't treated as an albatross around his neck.

Tohsin has been corrected though. Its brief but it does happen. Gentle just told him that he was unworthy to ever lead wakanda because he doesn't understand what tchalla does. Gentle is pretty much the last tchalla hype man left lol

Didn't he also say Storm was a better leader or more worthy of faith?

[DigiCom]

Yeah but that premise also had wakanda getting invaded by an outside threat as part of a tie in. It was a rock solid one shot but it wouldn't sustain a long form story.

I'll let Redjack answer that, if he chooses.

I wouldn't blame other colonies rebellion against tchalla on him, even if the writer gave that vibe. Hes a king, not a dictator. He is strict snd firm, but he does not suppress freedom, he suppression violence and violent indignation. If a group of wakandans rebel against him, that's on them, not him. Now that could be communicated better in the actual book, this recent one has him get blamed for everything, but I dont feel Coates specifically was trying to say he was bad because bad things happened. I think Coates was trying to criticize the monarchal system itself by exposing cracks in its ideology based on real life events that went similar ways under monarchies. Whether or not he did that GOOD ... is another thing

That's just the thing, though. You can have all the benevolent motives in the world... if you can't deliver the message, it doesn't matter.

I've _always_ believed that character should drive story. But it feels to me that all of these writers using the BP franchise as a vehicle for sociopolitical commentary are doing it the other way around. Story is driving character:

"I want to do a story about how kings/colonialism/espionage/whatever is a bad thing. I'm going to force the characters in the book to act a certain way in order to make it happen!"

O think you can have bad things happen in wakanda without Tchalla being made to look bad. This is a world where every character has iron man level tech, is well educated connected and intelligent. It only takes one to try and take down what TChalla has built. It can be done well.

I'm sure it's possible. But if that's the POINT of the story, I think the writer needs to ask themselves "Why do I want bad things to happen?" If the answer is "to add extra conflict" then, IMO, they are doing it wrong. If it is to show how characters persevere, rise above it, and grow, THEN you have a story.

Otherwise, all you have is an illustrated editorial.

[Redjack]

I think still saying Wakanda has no interest and no character at this point is a little bit biased. The fact is, a lot of people bought into his world and and is environment as unique as it is, as well as him. The afrofuturist utopia you described, that appealed to a lot of people as this character has entered the mainstream. Theres really no denying that at this point the concept of a place like wakanda has had on pop culture since the movie and this whole marketing push. It gets name dropped in music. People call themselves "wakandans" on social media or make it as their location. People wish it were real. Even meme culture features it. It's very much one of rhe most well known and popular fictional locations in the last decade of entertainment.

who cares? None of them are buying the comics. They don't matter except at university cocktail parties (and who goes to those?). Despite their claims, no one goes to a movie that's just a travelogue and cultural examination of a fictional world. Nobody.

So the question then is what do you do with that in relation to the character of TChalla.

Nope. That's absolutely not the question. Never has been and, as much as some would like to keep in the front, it never will be. Stories are about CHARACTERS going through stuff, NOT about the places in which those things occur. Wakanda is a SETTING, not a character.

You can separate them, but why would you? Thats weakening his power and putting him in an inferior spot? You can market them together but one or the other has to be threatened to do so. It is an interesting balance there, and I don't think it's all bad to have wakanda be attacked or surprise people with a seedy underbelly. I think it's going to rely heavily on nuanced execution though.

Dream bigger. Those aren't the choices available. Ask yourself, "If everything was the same here but ONLY white people were writing this comic, whatever their good intentions, would people be praising it or picketing?"

[Redjack]

I'll let Redjack answer that, if he chooses.

It makes me sad that these are the best stories anyone seems to be able to come up with. My team and I spent two years making BP and we managed to squeeze more nuance and complexity than that into a weekly cartoon. The number of hurdles, obstacles and restrictions on good storytelling we had to navigate would blow your mind and we still got through.

New villains. Global conflict. Personal frictions and drama. Cultural history. Revelations. Betrayal. Invasions. Magic. Sci-fi. James Bond. Street fights.

Can't be done? People have ALREADY done it.

Dream bigger than the worst humans have to offer. We might not be better than that but the super-heroes HAVE TO BE.

Or there's literally no point.

[king of hybrids]

If their going to go with Wakanda having a typical comic book crime ridden city; they might as well go full hog and have a villain bar with an on the nose name like ‘Ye Olde Hive of Scum & Villainy’

The only way that we could go from Wakanda being a utopia (random supervillains aside) to this is to just embrace absurdism and ironic cliche. Bring on the type writer death traps!

[LastManStanding]

I think still saying Wakanda has no interest and no character at this point is a little bit biased. The fact is, a lot of people bought into his world and and is environment as unique as it is, as well as him. The afrofuturist utopia you described, that appealed to a lot of people as this character has entered the mainstream. Theres really no denying that at this point the concept of a place like wakanda has had on pop culture since the movie and this whole marketing push. It gets name dropped in music. People call themselves "wakandans" on social media or make it as their location. People wish it were real. Even meme culture features it. Its very much one of rhe most well known and popular fictional locations in the last decade of entertainment.

So the question then is what do you do with that in relation to the character of TChalla. You can separate them, but why would you? Thats weakening his power and putting him in an inferior spot? You can market them together but one or the other has to be threatened to do so. It is an interesting balance there, and I don't think it's all bad to have wakanda be attacked or surprise people with a seedy underbelly. I think its going to rely heavily on nuanced execution though.

Hi there..Disney used Wakanda as a marketing ploy for the BP1 to appeal to casual movies fans in an effort to hedge their bets because they not want to make BP1 in the first place as per Bob Iger's words : https://screenrant.com/marvel-ike-pe...aptain-marvel/ and the Disney marketing team: https://studio-culture.com.au/black-...ting-campaign/. The Youtuber Comicbookgirl19 along with other social media influencers were even invited to a Disney marketing pre movie release Wakanda themed party.

And that's where Wakanda as a component of Black Panther ended; the setting was never meant to supersede T'Challa because the character had a huge following that gave Disney a billion dollars which IMO they were pleasantly surprised by.

[Marvell2100]

The new design and the premise definitely puts me in mind of Liss' BP:MWF so, this could be...interesting.

My question would be how this story/run lines up with him being an active Avenger in this supposedly shared universe? Will there be book synergy in terms of costume and character or will it just be to each their own, do what you want?

The Avengers book is better off ignoring what's going on in the solo. The only thing they need to say is that T'Challa isno longer King and leave it at that.

The question is not that T'Challa no longer has access to Wakandan resources, will the IGEW come into play for him to use.

Probably not.

[Marvell2100]

I bet they’re just gonna say Avengers takes place after Ewings run. Then again T’Challa is still a space emperor. What’s stopping him from calling the IGEW up to give him some gear?

They probably don't want to use it because then it becomes a question of why doesn't he use it more often. Then it becomes an issue of who is the IGEW loyal to, Wakanda or T'Challa?

If they did use the IGEW then they would probably have to specifically state that T'Challa only uses limited resources.

[Marvell2100]

As mentioned before its interesting that Liss' run was disliked when it first ran but it eventually got vindicated by history and now its a run new stories are being compared too to see if they can live up to it.

Credit to Liss for creating a run that stands up long afterwards.

Yeah, I'll admit I was a big critic of the whole premise and Liss won me over.

The thing was that while the premise changed, Liss didn't change who T'Challa was. The circumstances may have been new and different but Liss never lost sight of who T'Challa was.

[Ekie]

Hi there..Disney used Wakanda as a marketing ploy for the BP1 to appeal to casual movies fans in an effort to hedge their bets because they not want to make BP1 in the first place as per Bob Iger's words : https://screenrant.com/marvel-ike-pe...aptain-marvel/ and the Disney marketing team: https://studio-culture.com.au/black-...ting-campaign/. The Youtuber Comicbookgirl19 along with other social media influencers were even invited to a Disney marketing pre movie release Wakanda themed party.

And that's where Wakanda as a component of Black Panther ended; the setting was never meant to supersede T'Challa because the character had a huge following that gave Disney a billion dollars which IMO they were pleasantly surprised by.

It's a fact they were surprised (shocked even) by the success of the movie.
Stories of ppl trying to book tickets to Wakanda irl and articles lavishly heaping praise on everyone outside of the lead character/actor (mainly the female support) created the idea (which was verbalized by Kevin Feigie post Boseman) that Wakanda was the big draw.
Unfortunate circumstances lead to them testing that theory to the fullest only to have little more than half the returns of the first movie and none of the cultural impact.
How they respond to that will be interesting and very telling as to what level of success they will accept for this franchise.

[DigiCom]

I saw Quantumania this afternoon with a bunch of friends of various levels of comicbook familiarity. Not ONE of them said "I want to explore more of Quantum Realm society!"

Pretty much all of them wanted to see more Kang, though. Because the movie is about character, not setting.

[Ezyo1000]

Wakanda hasn't been special for at least a decade now.

Only time it is special is when some event comes along and they need soldiers that will side with the heroes, so here comes tchalla and wakanda (Empyre for example).

Not a single person who has touched Wakanda since Hudlin has put any thought into a HYPOTHETICAL ISOLATED AFRICAN SUPER POWER and what that would mean.

For all of Coates and his friends bluster about making Wakanda real or whatever nonsense word they used, they never took a step back to remember it isn't real. And you can't put real world stuff into something that is a GD fantasy on par with Asgard.

Wakanda sucks basically. It isn't what it should have been anymore.

The funny thing too? They made Wakanda weak as f*ck. Almost brought to it's knee's by a dozen hulked out dudes? The place that sent the skrulls packing, took on Atlantis and the Black order at the same times destroying Atlantis and requiring Thanos full force and generals there to STILL lose until Maximus let he free?

Nah, in their minds a real life African super power... Is completely helpless to a Tai chi dude and a Nazi sympathizer.

[Ezyo1000]

Tohsin has been corrected though. Its brief but it does happen. Gentle just told him that he was unworthy to ever lead wakanda because he doesn't understand what tchalla does. Gentle is pretty much the last tchalla hype man left lol

Dude straight up called T'Challa a jackboot and T'Challas sister, supposed to have his back, said nothing. No correction, no putting him in his place. Nothing at all, in fact later she goes on to tell him he's the future. And gentle didn't check him either because at the end he talks as though Tosin has potential to be some Great leader... Even though no one even knows who this dude is. Just some random that showed up.

That's the problem with Tosin, and Jhai, and Omolola and pretty much everything single pet character created by Ridley and Coates. They are useless and yet, because the writers own bias, they are given positions of power or elevation they certainly do not deserve.