Did the Krakoa era unwittin give humans a legit excuse to hate and fear mutants?

[Rift]

Who was talking about the x-villain's? Most of the main X-Men now have a body bag count that would make some of their villains blush at this point. Thanks to Krakoa era.

The villains are important to mention because it shows that even at its worst, Krakoa was still making the world a better place than it was before it existed, and its community helped to turn several criminals into heroes. For all talk about Krakoa's governing body falling to corruption, the island itself helped so many people, and its people were good overall. When accusing the X-Men of being villains, you have to keep that in mind.

As for the X-Men having body counts, can you elaborate on that? Because pretty much all of them have only killed in self-defense, and to stop Orchis from wiping out all organic life in the universe. But maybe I missed something.

As to your other point... and not to go on the extreme here...but Hitler believed that genocide was necessary for the survival of his people too. A HERO(s) knows that the road may be hard and that they may not survive the journey but they still do it anyway. That is what makes them heroes. The fact they get up again and again while NEVER taking the easy way out or becoming what they are fighting against.

Good thing the X-Men weren't going around committing genocide. The whole impetus for Krakoa was that mutants were absolutely, 100% going to get exterminated if they didn't band together. It was to avoid their own genocide. And even when Krakoa was formed, they made human lives a chief concern.

I'm not sure what you mean by the hero's journey comment. They didn't really give up on being heroes. Krakoa is not taking the easy way out.

[DragonsChi]

The villains are important to mention because it shows that even at its worst, Krakoa was still making the world a better place than it was before it existed, and its community helped to turn several criminals into heroes. For all talk about Krakoa's governing body falling to corruption, the island itself helped so many people, and its people were good overall. When accusing the X-Men of being villains, you have to keep that in mind.

As for the X-Men having body counts, can you elaborate on that? Because pretty much all of them have only killed in self-defense, and to stop Orchis from wiping out all organic life in the universe. But maybe I missed something.

When you have to use terms such as "good overall" it shows there was a misstep. Being good overall is bad and in some cases down right evil. The mafia for instance...as an organization they protected their people. They kept there neighborhoods "safe" and orderly. They could be described as "good overall" as well.

The X-Men FIRST and foremost are suppose to be Superheroes. The X-Men have enough power and enough experience that they never have to kill. In self-defense or otherwise. They are suppose to find other ways. Regardless of how justified the cause is Superheroes are suppose to be examples of what real people are suppose to aspire too. The X-Men have deviated so far from those idea's that they read like a Suicide Squad book. There is no longer any real remorse for the killing, the lying, the manipulations, and so on from most of the core members at all. They're the bad guys in the Krakoa era. They just so happen to be fighting other bad guys.

Good thing the X-Men weren't going around committing genocide. The whole impetus for Krakoa was that mutants were absolutely, 100% going to get exterminated if they didn't band together. It was to avoid their own genocide. And even when Krakoa was formed, they made human lives a chief concern.

I'm not sure what you mean by the hero's journey comment. They didn't really give up on being heroes. Krakoa is not taking the easy way out.

I didn't say that the X-Men committed genocide. I was saying that anyone can justify horrendous deeds if they feel the cause is worthy enough and you can convince others of the same.

[Rift]

When you have to use terms such as "good overall" it shows there was a misstep. Being good overall is bad and in some cases down right evil. The mafia for instance...as an organization they protected their people. They kept there neighborhoods "safe" and orderly. They could be described as "good overall" as well.

That's not comparable at all. Mafias largely exists to commit crimes. Their primary purpose is to be criminals. Krakoa largely exists to shelter mutants and help them rebuild. Their purpose is to be a country so they don't get killed. Krakoans are geared toward being good people, or at least being neutral and pro-mutant. Trouble-makers are punished. (Aside from Sinister, but he was a special case and even he got his comeuppance.)

Literally any group of people, if large enough, will have bad eggs. All countries have these issues. And like many countries, Krakoa has rules that protect others, even if they're foreigners. They try to punish mutants who hurt humans. Granted, Krakoa's laws weren't perfect. But we had a few books either addressing this, or making an effort to creating a healthier and kinder society. Many of Krakoa's critics were Krakoans themselves.

The X-Men FIRST and foremost are suppose to be Superheroes. The X-Men have enough power and enough experience that they never have to kill. In self-defense or otherwise. They are suppose to find other ways. Regardless of how justified the cause is Superheroes are suppose to be examples of what real people are suppose to aspire too. The X-Men have deviated so far from those idea's that they read like a Suicide Squad book. There is no longer any real remorse for the killing, the lying, the manipulations, and so on from most of the core members at all. They're the bad guys in the Krakoa era. They just so happen to be fighting other bad guys.

This is an outdated ideal that ignores the reality of their situation. Because there ARE no other ways of dealing with things. The last 30 years, 9+ timelines and all of Krakoa show that trying to live to ideals will not work, no matter what they do. Not killing could be negligent at best, and criminal at worst; because letting their enemies survive allows them to harm more innocents in the future. Which is basically what happened with them allowing Orchis to fester for so long.

And if you don't like that? That's okay. I can see why one might be upset at the franchise abandoning more idealistic thoughts for something so harsh. I get feeling disconnected when so many non-killers kill without making it a bigger deal. But at the same time, the X-Men aren't villains for what they're doing. They're doing it out of necessity, are less cruel than the people they're fighting (who started the fight and have been infinitely worse.) They are unambiguously being written as sympathetic and justified in their actions during Fall of X. Because they are.

Even if they deviated away from the most idyllic image of a hero, doesn't mean they're not still heroes. Because they're still doing what's right, even if it is harsh. They're not going out of their way to be cruel or malicious - they do what has to be done in order to save the entire planet.

I didn't say that the X-Men committed genocide. I was saying that anyone can justify horrendous deeds if they feel the cause is worthy enough and you can convince others of the same.

You compared them to Hitler. Genocide goes hand in hand with Hitler, dawg.

[OG Storm]

I think the Krakoa era would give anyone (Mutant, Human, Alien, ect) a reason to worry about the X-Men and mutants in general.

The Krakoa era introduce a morally lost island, filled with individuals who had little to no regard life, who were also willing to use any power they had (born with or obtained) to manipulate and/or horded over anyone they thought opposed them( former friends, allies, and of course enemies).

We can all sit back and pretend that wasn't the case and make any excuses that we like but ....the Krakoa era is the era where the X-Men became the bad guys. At the very least a very large version of the Suicide Squad.

That's nonsense. How many times did the x-men save the world, new York, multiple planets during their run? Beast was horrible as was Sabretooth and sinister but overall the x-men were the opposite. If you want to ignore all the good they did, that's up to you.

[Zoks]

That's nonsense. How many times did the x-men save the world, new York, multiple planets during their run? Beast was horrible as was Sabretooth and sinister but overall the x-men were the opposite. If you want to ignore all the good they did, that's up to you.

Nobody remembers potential threats for the good they did, they only remember them for the bad things they did. We as readers can see characters' motivations and intentions so it is easy to be much more forgiving, but the average human government knowing that Krakoans can each into your mind and change how you think or create a weather storm that can decimate your entire nation would see that one bad apple can mean the destruction of the world. Yeah they'll never tolerate that. That's why they allow Orchis to exist (and probably support it).

[Ra-El]

If I was an average dude living in the MU, I wouldn't go join the Purifiers or on marches against mutant rights, but I probably wouldn't be completely against the goverment having some way of combating people capable of killing the crops by making stop raining or freezing the world.

About Krakoa, I think whoever wasn't afraid of mutants after Apocalypse humble bragged about destroying human civilization once, definitely was after finding what Sinister was up to.

[Kingdom X]

When you have to use terms such as "good overall" it shows there was a misstep. Being good overall is bad and in some cases down right evil. The mafia for instance...as an organization they protected their people. They kept there neighborhoods "safe" and orderly. They could be described as "good overall" as well.

The X-Men FIRST and foremost are suppose to be Superheroes. The X-Men have enough power and enough experience that they never have to kill. In self-defense or otherwise. They are suppose to find other ways. Regardless of how justified the cause is Superheroes are suppose to be examples of what real people are suppose to aspire too. The X-Men have deviated so far from those idea's that they read like a Suicide Squad book. There is no longer any real remorse for the killing, the lying, the manipulations, and so on from most of the core members at all. They're the bad guys in the Krakoa era. They just so happen to be fighting other bad guys.

Just wanna add hear that the X-Men were never as strict with their no kill policy as say Batman. Wolverine openly has a motto that implies he's fine w/ killing people and he's killed people and been part of the X-Men for the vast majority of their history. IIRC Colossus killed one of the Marauders and I also think he fully intended on killing Proteus. Without outside intervention and pure luck, Storm would have killed both Callisto and Marrow. It's certainly not their first resort and I don't like the way that Duggan is currently writing them, but I don't think it's accurate to say that any deviation from the no-kill rule automatically makes the X-Men equivalent to the Suicide Squad. They seem much more comparable to Wonder Woman having to kill as a very last resort.

[OG Storm]

Nobody remembers potential threats for the good they did, they only remember them for the bad things they did. We as readers can see characters' motivations and intentions so it is easy to be much more forgiving, but the average human government knowing that Krakoans can each into your mind and change how you think or create a weather storm that can decimate your entire nation would see that one bad apple can mean the destruction of the world. Yeah they'll never tolerate that. That's why they allow Orchis to exist (and probably support it).

I don't buy that for a second. They literally are fine with a many human bad apples doing tremendous harm to the world without the persecution mutants face. Hell, they encourage it. Look at evil cap Steve or the red skull with the cosmic cube or... Human supervillains get a wider birth to be horrible and well received and forgiven than mutant ones. They do just as much harm. Just look at doom.

[Zoks]

I don't buy that for a second. They literally are fine with a many human bad apples doing tremendous harm to the world without the persecution mutants face. Hell, they encourage it. Look at evil cap Steve or the red skull with the cosmic cube or... Human supervillains get a wider birth to be horrible and well received and forgiven than mutant ones. They do just as much harm. Just look at doom.

Where are those guys tolerated? They get taken down by the Avengers and other superheroes all the time. Meanwhile the Mutants seem to insist on self-policing any criminals from their side, while not letting the rest of the world know what they are doing (remember the Pit was a secret prison). Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for Marvel nations to turn on Mutants to wipe them out or something similarly sinister, I'm just saying there are reasons (not necessarily good ones) that they would not tolerate a second Krakoa if they can actively stop it from forming.

[OG Storm]

Where are those guys tolerated? They get taken down by the Avengers and other superheroes all the time. Meanwhile the Mutants seem to insist on self-policing any criminals from their side, while not letting the rest of the world know what they are doing (remember the Pit was a secret prison). Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for Marvel nations to turn on Mutants to wipe them out or something similarly sinister, I'm just saying there are reasons (not necessarily good ones) that they would not tolerate a second Krakoa if they can actively stop it from forming.

We see evil captain Steve currently in the streets gathering humans for protest. Doom does whatever doom wants when he wants... The kingpin is having press conferences after turning new York city into a fascist state.

[OG Storm]

Where are those guys tolerated? They get taken down by the Avengers and other superheroes all the time. Meanwhile the Mutants seem to insist on self-policing any criminals from their side, while not letting the rest of the world know what they are doing (remember the Pit was a secret prison). Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for Marvel nations to turn on Mutants to wipe them out or something similarly sinister, I'm just saying there are reasons (not necessarily good ones) that they would not tolerate a second Krakoa if they can actively stop it from forming.

I agree, there are reasons. Sins of sinister is a perfect example of the reasons you speak of. But, and this a big but the main reason they wouldn't want a second krakoa to emerge is because they want to maintain their own power and oligarchy.

[marhawkman]

Good thing the X-Men weren't going around committing genocide.

Right.,... just regular mass-murder.

[Catlady in training]

Problem is, mutants replacing humans is supposed to be objective fact, so that's kind of buying into that sort of "race replacement theory" and treating it like it's a good thing, when in actuality it's not a thing at all and no one wants it.

The fact that white people will get significantly outnumbered in the future is also an objective fact at this point, just look at current birth rates in the western countries and all around the world. The problem is how much people are freaking out over something that will happen when they and their grandchildren are long gone, versus some real problems that we will face soon like effects of climate change.

It's just that some people are so used to being the majority that they can't face the idea of becoming a minority, even in the abstract sense (as it won't happen to them personally).

[marhawkman]

The fact that white people will get significantly outnumbered in the future is also an objective fact at this point, just look at current birth rates in the western countries and all around the world. The problem is how much people are freaking out over something that will happen when they and their grandchildren are long gone, versus some real problems that we will face soon like effects of climate change.

It's just that some people are so used to being the majority that they can't face the idea of becoming a minority, even in the abstract sense (as it won't happen to them personally).

That's not what replacement theory is about though. It's about erasure not shifting population ratios.

The idea of baseline humans becoming extinct... is a bad thing. In Marvel's comic book genetics logic.... potentially anyone can mutate as-is. so "pure" Humans would logically become an increasing rarity.... not specifically Mutants though. Spider-people and Cosmic mutates are also examples. So... why are the haters singling out Mutants? because of guys like Magneto and Apocalypse. "Magneto was right" ignores the fact that Magneto's actions went far and above beyond anything anyone else had done in order to cause Humans to fear Mutants.

And this is what taints that analogy you're trying to push. It's an example of forced erasure, not natural evolution.

[Marvell2100]

Nobody remembers potential threats for the good they did, they only remember them for the bad things they did. We as readers can see characters' motivations and intentions so it is easy to be much more forgiving, but the average human government knowing that Krakoans can each into your mind and change how you think or create a weather storm that can decimate your entire nation would see that one bad apple can mean the destruction of the world. Yeah they'll never tolerate that. That's why they allow Orchis to exist (and probably support it).

That's more of the result that Marvel didn't show humans that were supportive of the X-Men or mutants in general. There really isn't any balance, we only get to see the side of humanity that haters and fears mutants.