IMPERIUS REX! Namor Appreciation

[ImperiusWrecked]

All of this is what I think as well. But not only that regardless if it's a race thing or not Namor drowning a bunch of African citizens in a film is not going to go over well for ANYONE. Whether that be Namor, BP, or MARVEL, no one truly wins in that scenario with general audiences.

I have such an issue with that happening in the comics! I don't think it would ever translate well in the movie either.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Priest had the two mingle when he had T'challa holding court with Doom, Namor, and Magneto (each rulers of their nations). It was obvious they all respected one another...but they looked at each other as potential future adversaries...but royalty had them be respectful (remember BP would eventually fall out with Doom as well).

As I stated before I have not read everything with T’challa and his comics but Namor has been both ally and enemy to Doom and Magneto and both joins and fights often in the same issue and on both occasions he fought with them over their methods: with Magneto; Namor stood against him when he saw his mistreatment of Wanda and Pietro because Namor is not only a King but a protector and a gentleman and he would stand against those who use their powers to harm those who are weaker than them. In this all Magneto did was speak to Wanda in a way Namor didn’t approve of. As for Doom, he and Namor have a very famous super-villain team ups that show him and Victor allying then fighting all the time. Even in the comic where T’challa and Ororo go to visit Namor and he tells them he had been in Wakanda years before he warns them of Doom.

So Namor showing respect to the others only lasts as long as he thinks they deserve it and he often sees others as his enemy rather than as his friend first.

That's the point...they AREN'T but (and I'll admit it's used to show how smart T'challa is) so T'challa uses strategy to gain the advantage. In a one on one fight Namor would win. Namor could/tear through a great deal of Marvel characters. And Namor knows that T'challa knows this...so they can't go at each other personally...but they could take shots at each other in other ways.

Something that often irks me is how everyone at Marvel seem to think that Namor, a 96 year old descendant of Neptune trained from a birth to be a Ruler not just over the city and people but the armies of Atlantis and the oceans. Namor isn’t dumb in the sense that he cannot command armies or isn’t a master strategist, he just isn’t lab science smart that other characters like Reed are. Also Namor is far better in his own environment; marine biology, Atlantean tech, languages, and war experience he has so much of.

T’challa is smart I agree, and as you said Namor is a match for anyone in a straight fight. T’challa uses his strengths in a fight same as Namor.

But the question here is that Atlantis and Wakanda (not the two rulers) have never been on fair grounds due to how much Marvel writers weaken Atlantis and Atlanteans; as I said before how could Shuri’s army sneak up on people who live, fight, and breath in water? Then if Atlanteans come up on land they are at a disadvantage because that is not their element. So whether in water or on land the battle scales were always tipped in Wakanda’s favor and that is why I say Namor and T’challa have never been on equal grounds with fights between their countries.

The went at it in Enemy of the State during Priest's run. They also tussled when some Atlantians (Deviants I think) sought asylum in Wakanda. Those events set the stage (of kingly respect yet preemptive and simmering hostility) that later writers inflamed. I'd like to think that if Priest would have kept at Panther their conflict would be much more engaging than the soap opera it turned into. It would have been akin to two world superpowers flexing and the rest of the world trying to keep them at bay from each other.

As I stated earlier Namor often if not always fights those who are rulers and kings like Doom before having a ‘cease of hostilities’ to work with them or they have a respect for each other later that is tempered by the knowledge that they will never be close friends. This isn’t new with Namor’s character, the difference only being that T’challa being more on the side of good than evil. (I very vaguely recall that run of comics but I think it was in the early 2000’s? Long before AVX) Misunderstanding fights are always happening with Namor and even all the characters of Marvel before team ups as well. Also Doom is a world power as well so the level of the fight is the same.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Exactly...later writers blew up a civil "cold war" into a tit for tat between the two with citizens of each country paying the price. I hated the AvX storyline because it split Storm and Panther. BUT it did show (time and time again) that even as enemies they are kings and they can try to follow the greater good and work together even as Namor antagonizes Panther and T'challa has to deal with unhappy ancestors who want him to kill Namor. It does show the strength of each of them...and their weakness. Basically since Namor couldn't pester Reed as much...someone had the "bright idea" to make T'challa Namor's new toy.

Namor hasn’t pestered Reed so much in the last decade or so anyways, he wouldn’t care about T’challa being his ‘toy’ because Namor doesn’t play with his enemies, his snarky ******* attitude is directed to just about everyone, one notable person is Tony Stark, I have seen Namor fight and do stuff to annoy Tony a lot, even once raising a wall of water then asking to be taken into government custody but not by Tony, by a small team just to make Tony look incompetent in not securing him as a prisoner. Namor asks that Susan of the Fantastic Four be the one who deals with him, he often does this because out of all the Fantastic Four and Surface Dwellers he respects Susan a lot and with Captain America dead at the time he didn’t have anyone else to request.

No Namor normally wouldn't send a 3rd party BUT he took a move out of T'challa's book. He's playing the long game. Is that something Namor usually doesn't do? Sure. He's all IMPERIUS REX!! But it's a nice move. And T'challa knew he did it...and Namor admitted as much. They aren't enemies....but they don't like each other...but no one is the "good guy" because they've both done jacked up stuff to each other however they HAVE to work together. I mean would you rather Namor endlessy taunt Reed about wanting Sue Richard? At least in T'challa we have this potential world shattering tussle on the horizon. BUT they are both kings first and superheroes second. That's why they act like they do...especially with each other. I'd argue if it wasn't for advisers/councils/etc. they'd probably leave each other alone. If they weren't both heroes they probably fight and be done with it. But they can't because of internal and external responsibilities.

Once more, I am ever so happy that Marvel has decided (for now) to stop the Reed/Sue/Namor triangle because it is something that is only there because Namor is the antagonist, trying to tempt Susan away from reed and the four. Reed is meant to be the hero in the fantastic four and what better to pit him against than a man who is his opposite? Brain vs Brawn in the fight for Susan’s affections? Marvel did this for decades, and knowing full well that Susan would never end up with Namor at any point.

I do not think that Namor and Sue would ever be a good couple even if they did end up together, and they work so much better as friends.
As I said before, Namor would never send anyone in his place and the writing of his character was to me ooc. Namor does have different stateries, not saying that he wouldn’t play a long game but this did not seem like a long game to me, Namor would know that this would be one hard hit and not something to crumble the nation of Wakanda slowly over time. Namor was willing to end things and did reach out for peace, yet Shuri did not accept because she knew that if she didn’t attack Namor she would lose face with her people. Unlike what I have read with Wakandan politics Namor is more of a single ruler who frequently does things that do make him lose face with his people all the time, each time he stops an attack on the surface he is judged but he does it anyways. His word is law once spoken and very few people can influence him and at this point in the comics those who could have: Vasthi and Dorma, are in limbo/dead.

That SS angle....the less said the better. Thankfully that book didn't last to long

I agree so hard, the less I have to think about that, the better. lol

But remember in that story T'challa also admits its good that one of Namor's kids and his married because it kept them from killing each other. It never states Atlantis can't defend itself or has Namor on unequal footing. If that was the case there would be no reason for such a marriage (which was political for Namor and T'challa) but love on the part of the married couple. That's what kings did, marry their kids to help ensure a peace that would be impossible otherwise...and it wasn't done with a kingdom that was weaker. The marriage shows how on even footing they are. A Wakandan invasion of Atlantis would be disastrous for Wakanda. An Atlantean invasion of Wakanda would be the same for the Atlanteans (which is why Namor had the Black Order do it instead of his people).

The reason why I say it is on unequal ground is that Namor and his people are refugees, they do not own land, have any say about what happens in Wakanda, he is literally at the mercy and good will of Wakanda’s King, and T’challa could have done as his ancestors had done and turned people away and he would have had the right and support of his people. It does not strike me as any kind of smart to ever give Namor any land or rights in Wakanda such as to vote on matters, etc. The marriage was political in the sense that it does give them a reason to not ever fight in the future for someday T’challa would have killed Namor or tried to and he states this, not that Namor would kill him.
Another thing that I found to be off was the term of ‘black Atlanteans’ like they would be seen as something people feared but there have been black Atlanteans before, in a wolverine comic there is one shown. Atlanteans are a race of blue skinned people but white is not their default skin tone when they come out of the water, but rather they do have different ethnicities of the surface world, otherwise they would not have been able to blend into every country of the world at the end of the 2007 sub-mariner run.

They aren't enemies in the X-men vs Magneto sense. They are KINGS who see a potential threat in the other because they are looking seven moves ahead. They don't like each other...but they royally respect each other. That was a Priest plot point showing that BP isn't a superhero...he's a KING. Same as Namor, Doom, Black Bolt, and Magneto (at the time). These guy operate above good and evil. And neither one is totally good/evil in this. Namor is not the enemy for T'challa to defeat. He's not in his rogues gallery. He's another king in a nation that could really give Wakanda an L. IF he was in a BP movie (that way I see it) he wouldn't be the villian. He'd be the 3rd party. In the end he and T'challa would be on the same side. But BP would be the best place to have Namor pop up. He'd be another unknown might nation...

I hope all of this makes sense.

The thing about Priest stating that T’challa was not a hero but a king and pushing that narrative would have been something stand out for the Black Panther comics, but Namor (as the first comic book royalty) has been written this way since the beginning, he never states he is a hero, or a villain, he states he is a Prince of Atlantis, and that men know him as The Sub-Mariner, (then later changed to King of Atlantis) a lot throughout his comics.
Namor is the first anti-hero so he was never about good or evil, he was always about his code and what he thought was right, to me T’challa is more good, he isn’t the anti-hero Namor is, and both of them do not operate above the laws of good and evil, they simply do their thing, unwilling to let people tell them not to.

I personally feel if Namor was introduced in a Black Panther movie he would not be a third party, he would be an villain, and even if they do the ‘he was our enemy but now we are allies because he was tricked/there is another enemy that is worse than Namor/we decided that fighting was only killing our nations thing’ it wouldn’t matter to the greater audience because they would only see Namor as Black Panther’s villain and that is what Marvel would push. I didn't like how Wakanda which is one of the few positively shown African nations was destroyed like that in the comics.


If Namor is ever to have a movie debut, he would need one of his own, or an Invaders movie to really have his time for character growth. This is all just my opinion of course and others are totally allowed to have differing ones.

[KOSLOX]

If Marvel plans to use Namor, they should do an Atlantis Attacks based movie to introduce him as a conflicted king.

Aquaman might have screwed up any potential for a Namor solo, but they could make him an Avengers frenemy and eventual outright ally and use him for a major global conflict.

I may even steal plot elements from See Wakanda and Die and use that as a way to introduce Atlantis into a Secret Invasion storyline, basically make it See Atlantis and Die (sort like how Thor: Ragnarok is basically Planet Hulk, but instead Thor is Hulk and Hulk is Silver Surfer).

Basically make Namor an Avengers-level character rather than a foil to a solo hero.

If Captain Marvel is the new "Thor", make Namor the new "Hulk".

[KOSLOX]

Also, I'd retcon it so that Namor was *actual* friends with T'challa's Grandfather. I've said many times that I'd make him a *secret* Invader along with John Aman, and would have them help out in some northern Africa operations.

One of the reasons Namor would only have grudging acknowledgement of T'challa is because he respected his Grandfather and sees T'challa as a just a boy trying to fill in a role he doesn't believe he is suited for.

I think it would add some context and complexity to their relationship. Sort of like how Steve Rogers likes T'challa because he too was friends with Azzuri, Namor would be the flip side to that*.

(*Think: I knew Jack Kennedy, and Senator you're no Jack Kennedy).

[ImperiusWrecked]

A Namor fan and friend went to see the Aquaman movie and told me about it and now I just feel very pissed at how much was taken from Namor? I mean if Namor ever got a movie they would have to change it a ton because people will think he is a Aquaman ripoff and that sucks! I want to share this pic but if you want me to take it down then I will, it doesn't really have any spoilers but it just got me so mad because it just screams Namor to me.

aquamomoa.jpg

[LordUltimus]

A Namor fan and friend went to see the Aquaman movie and told me about it and now I just feel very pissed at how much was taken from Namor? I mean if Namor ever got a movie they would have to change it a ton because people will think he is a Aquaman ripoff and that sucks! I want to share this pic but if you want me to take it down then I will, it doesn't really have any spoilers but it just got me so mad because it just screams Namor to me.

aquamomoa.jpg

I dunno, I think Namor can hold his drink.

[Marvell2100]

No worries!



I agree about that assessment, it's always the ones who lean more to being a Black Panther fan who are on board with Namor being a rival, while almost every Namor fan I have spoke to on this subject seems very against it.

I really do not think that Namor being in BP2 as a rival just for T'challa to have someone to fight against would look cool. I don't ever see any way of this becoming anything good for Namor, his character, or Atlantis. T'challa would get a ton more character growth/tested and having to rise up to face/defeat Namor (because we all know that Namor will never be allowed to win in a BP movie). Really I just hope they do pull out more villains from Black Panther's comics than go the obvious VS fight. I mean look at Captain America Civil War? I did not enjoy that movie at all because it centers on two of them fighting rather than character development.

Not every BP fan. I'm a huge BP fan but I'm a fan of Namor and I don't want these two as adversaries. AvX ruined that and no one at Marvel is interested in fixing it.

I definitely don't want to see this spill over into the MCU.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I dunno, I think Namor can hold his drink.

LOL

Not every BP fan. I'm a huge BP fan but I'm a fan of Namor and I don't want these two as adversaries. AvX ruined that and no one at Marvel is interested in fixing it.

I definitely don't want to see this spill over into the MCU.

That is good to know! I also really don't want this to be in the MCU. I loved the Black Panther movie and really want the sequel and to have them explore more about Wakanda rather than destroying it.

[Spiderfang]

A Namor fan and friend went to see the Aquaman movie and told me about it and now I just feel very pissed at how much was taken from Namor? I mean if Namor ever got a movie they would have to change it a ton because people will think he is a Aquaman ripoff and that sucks! I want to share this pic but if you want me to take it down then I will, it doesn't really have any spoilers but it just got me so mad because it just screams Namor to me.

aquamomoa.jpg

Aaaaand of course they model the villain after the traditional classic Aquaman...nice /s

[Reviresco]

A Namor fan and friend went to see the Aquaman movie and told me about it and now I just feel very pissed at how much was taken from Namor? I mean if Namor ever got a movie they would have to change it a ton because people will think he is a Aquaman ripoff and that sucks! I want to share this pic but if you want me to take it down then I will, it doesn't really have any spoilers but it just got me so mad because it just screams Namor to me.

aquamomoa.jpg

I snorted loudly when I saw that in the movie, and I'm sure everyone wondered why.


Yes, now you can understand why I said there will never be a Namor movie, because the Aquaman movie stole too much from Namor. One of the central elements of Namor's character is his status as the outsider, the 'half-breed' prince, who is not accepted with either parent's world. And even Orm, has important elements we've normally seen first and mostly in Namor -- including that slicked back hair style. LOL!

This article from CBR points out exactly what Aquaman appropriated from Namor, and how important it is, and even mentions this wasn't original to Aquaman, yet never mentions that this is a key factor of Namor's character.

https://www.cbr.com/aquaman-first-bi...uperhero-film/


This article talks about Orm the Environmentalist.

https://www.cbr.com/aquamans-king-or...-dceu-villain/


Oh, and then there's emphasis on the Mom. Princess Fen would be proud.

I dunno, I think Namor can hold his drink.

LOL! I don't think we want to see drunk Namor. O_O

Aaaaand of course they model the villain after the traditional classic Aquaman...nice /s

I thought the same thing.

[Mr MajestiK]

Wow. It must have great.

I liked Wonder Woman. I think that's the only one I've seen in the theatre. No, wait, I went to Suicide Squad -- I loved that book when it first came out.

Aquaman was absolutely fantastic.

I'll definitely be going to see it again.

[Mr MajestiK]

Ok, I want to respond but I don't want to seem confrontational which sometimes I can get since I am very passionate about this character so I'm going to make a small rant/bullet points about why T'challa and Namor need to stop being shoved together for the sake of them fighting. I do not mean to be harsh or disrespectful to you or your opinions but only want to state my own thoughts.

1. Namor and T'challa's first meeting was retconned so that a young T'challa met and fought Namor (in Rise of the Black Panther #3) instead of that first Invaders/Avengers meeting/fight from the 70's Invaders run.


2. Namor and T'challa have NEVER been on equal ground when it comes to fighting or attacks on the other's nation.

- The first time they 'went at it' was because Namor was possessed by the phoenix force, he hadn't iirc ever attacked Wakanda before, and the most the had with T'challa was a few misunderstanding fights, and they each had a healthy respect for each other that mainly had them ignoring the other unless they needed to work together, they weren't best buddies but they respected each other as monarchs. Namor even gave T'challa and Storm an island for their wedding/honeymoon gift. Later he welcomed them to Atlantis when they needed to speak where he revealed that he HAD once been in Wakanda and met T'challa's grandfather (Black Panther 2005 #21) but because of his multiple head wounds/amnesia had trouble remembering stuff.

- Phoenix Namor's attack on Wakanda was B.S. pure and simple, he had no reason to attack them if he wasn't under the phoenix power, they hadn't hurt Atlantis and Namor was manipulated by Emma who was also under the phoenix power. T'challa had no reason to side with the Avengers to hide Hope especially considering the long and well known stance of Wakanda not interfering with outsiders. The writers just wanted to have a big 'stake' for their comic and of course now it's the main thing Namor is remembered for and also the thing that has come back time and time again to hurt Namor's character and make it seem like he was a war mongering tyrant King. The whole phoenix five event was badly written imo especially for Namor's character. They just said, well that guy attacks the surface all the time so this is in character for him. The rest of the Five don't have to deal with this stuff even now meanwhile it's done nothing but make Namor T'challa's enemy.

- Shuri attacks Atlantis because of the destruction of Wakanda. Even though Namor tried to make peace, and she attacks them in WATER and supposedly has the power to overwhelm them and weaken Atlantis? Sorry, but they live in water they should have been at their full strength to fend them off even without Namor. This is another example of Marvel writers weakening Namor and Atlanteans just so that a surfacer can win.

- Namor then begs? on his knees? to save his people and lies??? By pointing Proxmia towards Wakanda to attack them in his stead? I'm sorry but this is B.S. too. Namor is so notorious for not begging or even thanking people properly, he would never do that in front of an enemy because that would show weakness, and Namor really doesn't lie, he is one of the most honest characters and it often gets him on the bad side of other characters since he is very frank with his opinions and thoughts but the most damning thing is that Namor is sending SOMEONE else to have his vengeance. That right there, I don't believe, because Namor wouldn't let anyone have what he considers his right/duty to war/fight for his people. He is always the first one to throw himself on the front lines for Atlantis and her people. Now don't get me wrong, there were many aspects of Hickman's run that I did like but he honestly didn't write classic Namor, he used Namor and sealed the characters fate to forever be Wakanda's and Black Panther's enemy.

3. The problem with Hickman's run is that it ends with everyone on earth who died being alive again/the reset the time to just before the first incursions which if that was true and time was altered to return to the beginning of that event then Namor would have never destroyed planets, and the S.S. wouldn't have had to kill Namor in their book, but you know I try not to look too much into how comic timelines work because its a mess but Hickman's ending didn't help Namor, only now it made Namor the Squadron Supreme's whipping boy. They also destroyed Atlantis and then Namor just forgives them when he is brought back to life? *sigh* I get very frustrated with that.

4. Namor is never given equal ground in T'challa's books ever. When he is shown or spoken of it's always about the attack and of course it would be since that is all the history they have and Namor is their enemy so he would never be shown in a good light for long. Even in Black Panther Annual (2018) #1 It's shown a future of Wakanda where (surprise surprise) Atlantis had been destroyed by who knows what this time and Namor seeking refuge for his people within Wakanda, later Namor watches T'challa have his own family and wants one of his own and then its decided to have a marriage between their people for future peace. While this whole thing is just an glimpse into one future, it irks me because it once more sets up the fact the Atlantis can't defend itself and Namor is treated as though he never wanted marriage or a family before because that is untrue, he has always wanted that. But it is a Black Panther comic and so seeing Atlantis having to rely on T'challa's good will instead of rebuilding themselves shows once more how I feel Namor is always on unequal footing.

Marvel keeps killing Atlantis and Atlanteans, and contrary to the belief that most people seem to have, Namor has never needed Tchalla as an enemy, he has so many other enemies and allies, however it seems that T'challa needing Namor as his most powerful rival is something everyone wants. As far as I am concerned, its done and over, let's move on, let's stop killing Atlantis, let's stop having Namor be the S.S. or B.P. enemy and please for the love of comics I really hope Namor is never made to be B.P. mcu villain because all that will do is fuel another 20 years of b.p. vs namor storylines instead of story lines about Atlantis and its people and Namor's own story and world building.

I agree with this excellent post 100%.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Aaaaand of course they model the villain after the traditional classic Aquaman...nice /s

Yep, I know that Orm in the comics had dark hair but they changed that for the movies too.

I snorted loudly when I saw that in the movie, and I'm sure everyone wondered why.


Yes, now you can understand why I said there will never be a Namor movie, because the Aquaman movie stole too much from Namor. One of the central elements of Namor's character is his status as the outsider, the 'half-breed' prince, who is not accepted with either parent's world. And even Orm, has important elements we've normally seen first and mostly in Namor -- including that slicked back hair style. LOL!

This article from CBR points out exactly what Aquaman appropriated from Namor, and how important it is, and even mentions this wasn't original to Aquaman, yet never mentions that this is a key factor of Namor's character.

https://www.cbr.com/aquaman-first-bi...uperhero-film/


This article talks about Orm the Environmentalist.

https://www.cbr.com/aquamans-king-or...-dceu-villain/


Oh, and then there's emphasis on the Mom. Princess Fen would be proud.

pffft, they really did that, they just took things that were the backbone of Namor's story since the beginning and just gave it all the aquamomoa, (i like the actor but i dont like how this all played out) Namor could have also had a very good arc with his mother, since I recall there was an issue that says she had always been ashamed of him for being born a half breed.

I just feel it is a waste because Namor has such a compelling and interesting story and now we might not ever get to see that on screen.

Thanks for the links and I think I will pass on seeing this in theaters, I may just rent it when it comes out.

[Marvell2100]

I think they'll likely introduce Namor in a new FF film, gauge reactions and then do a Namor solo.

Have him already established in FF and then no need for an origin movie.

As for villains, I'd have Attuma team up with some corporation on the surface world(Roxxon, Brand, etc).