Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[Cville]

I'll give you all of this even though you essentially arguing semantics.I'm talking about different plot points or story beats that show up across multiple runs. No Hudlin, didn't have other heroes protecting Wakanda. Ok cool. That doesn't change the idea that there were multiple heroes that showed up and took away valuable panel space from T'Challa. That happened. Hudlin had a bunch of guest appearances. This happened. I'm pointing out that Coates followed that same formula despite his preparation techniques. You're arguing against that main point without offering up proof to debunk it entirely. You do realize that you're not disproving my argument, right?

Storm still now has history of helping T'Challa solve problems involving an indigenous population of creatures that predate humans, right? Is anyone gonna be objective (other than Mike Murdock) and admit to these things being put to paper long before Coates got his hands on the mythos?

The argument is should Coates have had ancient WKs throw the people native to Wakanda off their lands.
If the battlefield you're standing on is there were other species in the planet before humans, nobody is arguing against that.
Wakanda didn't throw the Deviants off the surface, that was the Celestials by flooding the planet. And for 8,000 years they chose to live in the ocean.

What Coates did was unnecessary mostly designed out of self proclaimed pessimism, spite for wish fulfilment fantasy, and the need to give Storm a build up.

[Marvell2100]

I'll give you all of this even though you essentially arguing semantics.I'm talking about different plot points or story beats that show up across multiple runs. No Hudlin, didn't have other heroes protecting Wakanda. Ok cool. That doesn't change the idea that there were multiple heroes that showed up and took away valuable panel space from T'Challa. That happened. Hudlin had a bunch of guest appearances. This happened. I'm pointing out that Coates followed that same formula despite his preparation techniques. You're arguing against that main point without offering up proof to debunk it entirely. You do realize that you're not disproving my argument, right?

Storm still now has history of helping T'Challa solve problems involving an indigenous population of creatures that predate humans, right? Is anyone gonna be objective (other than Mike Murdock) and admit to these things being put to paper long before Coates got his hands on the mythos?

BB you have to look at it this way. Having guest heroes in your title is okay. Having guest stars doing all the heavy lifting in your title while you do very little is problematic.

I don't have a problem with Storm appearing in BP because they have history and they actually work great together when written well.

But Coates problem is this. He brought in lame villains to challenge T'Challa and Wakanda and then had T'Challa outsource his responsibilities to deal with these lame villains.

What did Thunderball do that T'Challa couldn't have done 10 times in his sleep? Coates brought in his own version of The Crew to deal with some mystery that no one cared about and was never relevant. He wrote a great Storm and gave her very good development that quite honestly she wasn't getting in an X-title. He brought in a seldom used X-villain as the main bad guy to threaten Wakanda and had someone else get the majority of the credit for defeating him.

It's as if the X-Men were fighting the The Sinister Six and losing only to have T'Challa show up, beat them and then reveal the big bad was Klaw who T'Challa then takes out with a little doo-hickey.

[BBeeryan]

Everytime I disprove an argument, you move an argument. Everytime I ask for scans, you can't produce them.
and I addressed the "multiple heroes" thing






How did Storm help solve the problem during Sturm Und Drang? Be specific. Being around =/= helping T'challa solve problems. I don't remember her being invited to the super secret meeting between Kings (and Ross). She didn't help stop Klaw. She didn't adopt the child. She wasn't in Lemuria with Ross.

I think she babysitted for a second?

Lolol oh god. I started out drawing parallels between Coates work and that of Priest and Hudlin. I'll concede that Hudlin never brought in other heroes to protect Wakanda. I'll give you that even though the language I used never suggested it. I said Coates did. And I said thats a plot point he picked up from Hudlin, I should have been more specific because I was strictly talking about other heroes showing up. There were multiple guest appearances. You are still arguing semantics and your looking for me to provide scans for something I never outright suggested was in paper. Do I really need to go back and highlight my entire argument that started with a response to Mr. M? Your talking about disproving an argument I've made when you haven't done anything of the sort. The implications I'm speaking about are still there. The plot points I'm talking about are still there. The glaring similarities are still there. You just aren't honest enough with yourself to admit it.

[BBeeryan]

BB you have to look at it this way. Having guest heroes in your title is okay. Having guest stars doing all the heavy lifting in your title while you do very little is problematic.

I don't have a problem with Storm appearing in BP because they have history and they actually work great together when written well.

But Coates problem is this. He brought in lame villains to challenge T'Challa and Wakanda and then had T'Challa outsource his responsibilities to deal with these lame villains.

What did Thunderball do that T'Challa couldn't have done 10 times in his sleep? Coates brought in his own version of The Crew to deal with some mystery that no one cared about and was never relevant. He wrote a great Storm and gave her very good development that quite honestly she wasn't getting in an X-title. He brought in a seldom used X-villain as the main bad guy to threaten Wakanda and had someone lese get the majority of the credit for defeating him.

It's as if the X-Men were fighting the The Sinister Six and losing only to have T'Challa show up, beat them and then reveal the big bad was Klaw who T'Challa then takes out with a little doo-hickey.

I totally get your point, bruh. And you are very close to the truth that I was looking for. My argument was never how they went about bringing in multiple other heroes. That's what my comment about the formula was about. The fact remains that there were still multiple guest appearances in both runs. That's some thing that can be proven. That happened. That and a lot of the other things I brought up happened. I never made mention of whether or not they were done WELL or to anyone's liking. The fact that they happened and are not some wholly original idea of Coates' has been my main argument. The fact that no one other than Mike Murdock mentioned or admitted to this is exactly the point. That's what I meant by objective truths.

[MindofShadow]

Lolol oh god. I started out drawing parallels between Coates work and that of Priest and Hudlin. I'll concede that Hudlin never brought in other heroes to protect Wakanda. I'll give you that even though the language I used never suggested it. I said Coates did. And I said thats a plot point he picked up from Hudlin, I should have been more specific because I was strictly talking about other heroes showing up. There were multiple guest appearances. You are still arguing semantics and your looking for me to provide scans for something I never outright suggested was in paper. Do I really need to go back and highlight my entire argument that started with a response to Mr. M? Your talking about disproving an argument I've made when you haven't done anything of the sort. The implications I'm speaking about are still there. The plot points I'm talking about are still there. The glaring similarities are still there. You just aren't honest enough with yourself to admit it.

How am I misinterpreting this...

Storm still now has history of helping T'Challa solve problems involving an indigenous population of creatures that predate humans, right?

I am directly quoting clear sentences asking you to post objective evidence to prove your point.

If I am misinterpreting whatever argument you are making now, please do repost your thesis. Because it seems to have de-evolved to, "other writers used other heroes too!"

And you keep saying "Matt Murdock is the only one!" when others actually went back and found and posted the scans you couldn't be bothered to look for. And they didn't even support your argument considering, according to a usually very accurate BoG, the Celestials dealt with the Lemurians in Africa.

[Ezyo1000]

Much appreciated MoS and cville

I was going to dive into more conversation but it's really pointless.

As for MoS your point about Priest. Hell yeah he could bring the emotion when he needed it and humanize Tchalla. Same with Hudlin.

[DigiCom]

To clarify...

The Deviants had a GLOBAL empire. Their capital was on a now-sunken continent in the Pacific.

(This is why you don't piss off 300-ft tall space gods )

[Cville]

To clarify...

The Deviants had a GLOBAL empire. Their capital was on a now-sunken continent in the Pacific.

(This is why you don't piss off 300-ft tall space gods )

So you're saying that the Deviant was speaking generally when taking to Tchalla? Not Wakanda specifically?

[DigiCom]

So you're saying that the Deviant was speaking generally when taking to Tchalla? Not Wakanda specifically?

Correct. The Deviants were never depicted, to my knowledge, as starting in Wakanda.

[Marvell2100]

Correct. The Deviants were never depicted, to my knowledge, as starting in Wakanda.

No, they weren't.

More evidence for this can be found in the original Eternals series from the 70's as well as Thor #287-300.

[DigiCom]

And, for the specific story of the sinking of Lemuria: Amazing Spider-Man Annual #23, part of the ATLANTIS ATTACKS crossover.

[BBeeryan]

How am I misinterpreting this...



I am directly quoting clear sentences asking you to post objective evidence to prove your point.

If I am misinterpreting whatever argument you are making now, please do repost your thesis. Because it seems to have de-evolved to, "other writers used other heroes too!"

And you keep saying "Matt Murdock is the only one!" when others actually went back and found and posted the scans you couldn't be bothered to look for. And they didn't even support your argument considering, according to a usually very accurate BoG, the Celestials dealt with the Lemurians in Africa.

Issue #26 of Priest's Black Panther quite literally has Storm helping out with a deviant child of one of the Lumarians. Lord Ghuar is clearly seen discussing this child with T'Challa. The same child that Storm spent the better part of an afternoon singing to try and get him to come out of hiding. How does that not now establish Storm as helping T'Challa in two different instances to rectify problems that arise out of conflict with creatures that predate prehistoric Wakandan man? You keep trying to debunk my arguments without understanding what it is that I'm actually saying. It's ok. A lot of people do that. It doesn't make it any less fun for me tho.

[BBeeryan]

Got it for you. I think these are the two being discussed.

And if the Lumarians weren't native to those lands then why does Lord Ghaur scoff at T'Challa's use of "his lands?"

[Cville]

And if the Lumarians weren't native to those lands then why does Lord Ghaur scoff at T'Challa's use of "his lands?"

Beware of Geeks says they had a global empires. He probably thinks the entire surface is his. My guess is he would say that to any human he met. Lol

[The Cool Thatguy]

And if the Lumarians weren't native to those lands then why does Lord Ghaur scoff at T'Challa's use of "his lands?"

Because Ghaur is a supreme douche who sees the entire surface world at one and the same?

Remember that his outrage here is all an act to protect his political power, to keep his affair hidden.