Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[ed2962]

I would say this most effects people who have never read BP before and do not know what they should be expecting. Because if you had never read BP I can see how they would highlight that he is bringing up issues: rape as a weapon of war, LGBT, and misogyny.

I would then ask where were these same people for BatWing, Nighthawk and Shaft. If the same level of exposure was given to these books they could have propped up their sales.

That's just it, those comics didn't get that much promotion so they struggled ( although I think Batwing showed up on NPR once).

[Marvell2100]

I was with him until...

"It's focused on existential ideas that appeal to pro-blacks and Hoteps, but not the action that gets young new readers excited about comic books."

That's bullshit. Almost NOTHING about Coates Black Panther appeals to anyone who consider themselves "Pro-Black". Pro-Blacks want a character who stands up for his Kingdom and his people, not cowers in self doubt and pity. Pro-Blacks want a character who revels in the Afro-futurism of his very existence, not meets with dictators who recommend torture. Pro-Blacks want to read about complex villains with tragic origins, not two childish terribly underwritten brats who want to parade around the continent sprouting "No One Man" rhetoric. Pro-Blacks want to want to see well written stories that see their BLACK hero under the pen of a BLACK writer treated with the respect and dignity that his mythos demands, not a complete deconstruction of that character's nobility.

Good call-out. Coates basically tore down a good man to try to elevate the MA.

He succeeded with the former and failed with the latter.

[ed2962]

Editors probably don't even come into this thread, so they don't know what's being said in here. If we want them to take heed, we've got to take it TO them, just like a lot of fans took it TO Marvel when they wanted to destroy a marriage between a black man and a black woman. And we all know what happened after that.

Thing is even if they do come to this thread, they'll go, "Well some fans are complaining, but the sales are still decent so it can't be that bad." In the end Marvel accountants care more about sales than they do about fan criticism.

[Marvell2100]

Editors probably don't even come into this thread, so they don't know what's being said in here. If we want them to take heed, we've got to take it TO them, just like a lot of fans took it TO Marvel when they wanted to destroy a marriage between a black man and a black woman. And we all know what happened after that.

I believe some editors and writers did lurk in this thread and in the X-Forums during the marriage fiasco. Why do you think we got so much trolling of T'Challa post marriage.

[XPac]

Thing is even if they do come to this thread, they'll go, "Well some fans are complaining, but the sales are still decent so it can't be that bad." In the end Marvel accountants care more about sales than they do about fan criticism.

Yeah, I think Bendis taught marvel that lesson during his Avengers run (not that they didn't probably already know it anyway). He's an extreme example, but nonetheless proof the most commercially successful comic book writer at the time (and for the better part of a decade) can also be the most criticisms on the net.

Not that there isn't some value in readers letting marvel and Coates know how they feel, but ultimately fans vote with their dollars. If sales drop below whatever parameter marvel sets them marvel will do whatever it is they feel they need to do.

[Ezyo1000]

Good call-out. Coates basically tore down a good man to try to elevate the MA.

He succeeded with the former and failed with the latter.

Spot on. In fact, Coates and Gay managed to make men of Wakanda inept, evil, and disrespectful (local cops not doing his job and calling DM glorified servants) acting as though all the women of Wakanda are victims that need saving (a warrior nation, and everyone acts helpless??) And pitting men vs women.

They have done more harm to the mythos then any shred of good (not much to celebrate either as Wakanda didn't look very afrofuturistic at all)

[ed2962]

Yeah, I think Bendis taught marvel that lesson during his Avengers run (not that they didn't probably already know it anyway). He's an extreme example, but nonetheless proof the most commercially successful comic book writer at the time (and for the better part of a decade) can also be the most criticisms on the net.

Not that there isn't some value in readers letting marvel and Coates know how they feel, but ultimately fans vote with their dollars. If sales drop below whatever parameter marvel sets them marvel will do whatever it is they feel they need to do.

That's kind of a problem with us as fans. If we continue to pay money for comics we think are bad, Marvel has no reason to listen to anything we say.

[MindofShadow]

That's kind of a problem with us as fans. If we continue to pay money for comics we think are bad, Marvel has no reason to listen to anything we say.

It becomes a circular argument though (not you in particular just in general)


Argument #1: Hardcore fans don't matter, so who cares if they are unhappy. They are a vocal minority!

Argument #2: You are keeping the book alive and promoting this shitty version when you buy the book!


I mean... which is it lol? Do we matter or do we not matter?

Plus, being a "C" list hero... there is real risk in not supporting every book no matter what. Because, Marvel may not see it as "Coates isn't telling stories people want." they will see it as, "Black Panther can't sell." It si a double edged sword when you are not one of the "go to" characters that will always get a book. Of course, we could be there already thanks to the MCU so that argument may be moot.

[XPac]

It becomes a circular argument though (not you in particular just in general)


Argument #1: Hardcore fans don't matter, so who cares if they are unhappy. They are a vocal minority!

Argument #2: You are keeping the book alive and promoting this shitty version when you buy the book!


I mean... which is it lol? Do we matter or do we not matter?

Plus, being a "C" list hero... there is real risk in not supporting every book no matter what. Because, Marvel may not see it as "Coates isn't telling stories people want." they will see it as, "Black Panther can't sell." It si a double edged sword when you are not one of the "go to" characters that will always get a book. Of course, we could be there already thanks to the MCU so that argument may be moot.

For Black Panther though, it sort of doesn't matter.

I think that arguement matters more for say Slapstick or whatever... if that book doesn't sell it's entirely possible you'll never see that character again in your lifetime. But if the Black Panther book doesn't sell, they'll just put out another Black Panther book and try to make that one sell. Because it's a movie franchise it's in somewhat of a safe zone like you alluded to. And even when it wasn't I've always felt like Marvel had a soft spot for the character. Sort of like Moon Knight (who as far as I know doesn't have a movie or tv show coming out... though a net flicks show would be cool). He seems to be getting second and third and forth chances.

But ultimately people should be free to buy whatever the heck they want.

[HUTHAIFA]

I guess my question is... why should we give them a second chance at all? What makes the Midnight Angels so fascinating that they should be supporting characters moving forward? Is it just so Wakanda can have "street level" vigilantes, just like New York?

(Which reminds me... why is it that Wakanda is the only fictional nation that has to deal with this stuff? We never hear about rapes in Attilan, or supply-jacking in Atlantis. And the only time we saw drugs in Latveria was in the Ellis DOOM 2099 run... and Doom drove them out in an issue.)

EDITED TO ADD: They aren't even the first reformed LBGQT villains in the Black Panther mythos. That was Venomm (who had a relationship with Taku, according to Don McGregor)

Attilan doesn't do rape. They do slavery. Jenkins dropped the hammer on them with what he did with the Alpha primitives.

Also Doom runs a dictatorship, where if you sneeze the wrong way, you will die. It what Coates pointed out when he had Tchalla talk with world leaders on how to stop a rebellion.

Tchalla is not a dictator, so the freedom that his people enjoy can also be abused.

[HUTHAIFA]

That's kind of a problem with us as fans. If we continue to pay money for comics we think are bad, Marvel has no reason to listen to anything we say.

But that's misleading perspective.

Hopefully most fans buy a book because it entertains them. Whether it's because it's a guilty pleasure or because it's high quality entertainment, you buy it because you get some level of entertainment.

A good share of customers don't put such a high level of expectations in their purchases.

It's difference between going to see Moonlight orFast and Furious.

Marvel produces entertainment not grand literature. If it happens to be critically acclaimed and sell bonus then it's a win win.

[ed2962]

It becomes a circular argument though (not you in particular just in general)


Argument #1: Hardcore fans don't matter, so who cares if they are unhappy. They are a vocal minority!

Argument #2: You are keeping the book alive and promoting this shitty version when you buy the book!


I mean... which is it lol? Do we matter or do we not matter?

Plus, being a "C" list hero... there is real risk in not supporting every book no matter what. Because, Marvel may not see it as "Coates isn't telling stories people want." they will see it as, "Black Panther can't sell." It si a double edged sword when you are not one of the "go to" characters that will always get a book. Of course, we could be there already thanks to the MCU so that argument may be moot.

For the companies it's a judgement call. Do you try to keep the 10 hardcore fans happy or do you go for having 25 causal fans some of whom when leave when the next trend comes along?

For the fans it's a case of do I want to buy a Capt Bloodfist comic just of the sake of having it or do a want a Capt Bloodfist comic that I enjoy?

[ed2962]

For Black Panther though, it sort of doesn't matter.

I think that arguement matters more for say Slapstick or whatever... if that book doesn't sell it's entirely possible you'll never see that character again in your lifetime. But if the Black Panther book doesn't sell, they'll just put out another Black Panther book and try to make that one sell. Because it's a movie franchise it's in somewhat of a safe zone like you alluded to. And even when it wasn't I've always felt like Marvel had a soft spot for the character. Sort of like Moon Knight (who as far as I know doesn't have a movie or tv show coming out... though a net flicks show would be cool). He seems to be getting second and third and forth chances.

But ultimately people should be free to buy whatever the heck they want.

With BP specifically I think he's one of those characters that have enuff either dedicated fans or creators that like him that will always get a new series eventually. She-Hulk, Punisher, Moon Knight, Ghost Rider...

[skyvolt2000]

I mean... which is it lol? Do we matter or do we not matter?

You don't matter.

See Wally West at DC.
See Cassandra Cain at DC
See John Stewart at DC.

That company had no trouble getting rid of all them for PETS or to push someone that they wanted.

Marvel can not look at Black Panther and his almost 175+ solo stories and say no one wants to read about him. They can only say folks don't care for Coates version.

That's bullshit. Almost NOTHING about Coates Black Panther appeals to anyone who consider themselves "Pro-Black". Pro-Blacks want a character who stands up for his Kingdom and his people, not cowers in self doubt and pity. Pro-Blacks want a character who revels in the Afro-futurism of his very existence, not meets with dictators who recommend torture. Pro-Blacks want to read about complex villains with tragic origins, not two childish terribly underwritten brats who want to parade around the continent sprouting "No One Man" rhetoric. Pro-Blacks want to want to see well written stories that see their BLACK hero under the pen of a BLACK writer treated with the respect and dignity that his mythos demands, not a complete deconstruction of that character's nobility.

You do have problacks who love what they are reading. Because it fits an agenda despite WHO is being used. They are the same folks using Get Out as proof to not date outside your race and the Chuck Clayton episode of Riverdale to prove black men are nothing more than sexual predators. In other words-I get your message but ignoring WHO got used.

Doom, Namor, Black Bolt, Aquaman, Magneto nor Odin would allow that mess to happen nor would they sit back and be an observer. They would have done something about it themselves.

[ed2962]

But that's misleading perspective.

Hopefully most fans buy a book because it entertains them. Whether it's because it's a guilty pleasure or because it's high quality entertainment, you buy it because you get some level of entertainment.

A good share of customers don't put such a high level of expectations in their purchases.

It's difference between going to see Moonlight orFast and Furious.

Marvel produces entertainment not grand literature. If it happens to be critically acclaimed and sell bonus then it's a win win.

Ironically enough I just watched Moonlight last night after reading this weeks comics LOL.

But yeah, in general I understand what your saying. And you're not wrong. But the point I was trying to make is about less art vs entertainment and more that there are fans who will actively say, "I don't like this comic" but will buy it regardless. Usually the reason is something like it's my favorite character or I want to get the whole run or it's related to this other thing I'm reading and I want to know what going on...I guess where I'm going is that the corporation doesn't care if I buy it reservations, they just care if they get my money.