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  1. #7501
    Astonishing Member Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Not lately anyway.
    Doom lost nothing in Doomwar. Absolutely nothing. Namor lost everything first and nearly died (caused by Wakanda, BP, BB and himself), Thanos' Cabal lost the first time and were trapped/killed. Black Swan wouldn't have been trapped in the first place without T'Challa. That's a clear difference.


    I'm annoyed by how Wakanda was handled (despite knowing it was going to happen since FF), but lets not front, Panther has done way more than he did in Doomwar. Yeah, the backfires have been vicious, but again, we'll see if part 3 of Bast prophecy overshadows those or not.
    Last edited by Double 0; 03-16-2015 at 05:15 PM.
    "Race is a social construct, they say. And I remind them that money is a social construct, too. Social constructs have power." — DeRay Mckesson

  2. #7502
    Astonishing Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    Doom lost nothing in Doomwar. Absolutely nothing. Namor lost everything first and nearly died (caused by Wakanda, BP, BB and himself), Thanos' Cabal lost the first time and were trapped/killed. Black Swan wouldn't have been trapped in the first place without T'Challa. That's a clear difference.


    I'm annoyed by how Wakanda was handled (despite knowing it was going to happen since FF), but lets not front, Panther has done way more than he did in Doomwar. Yeah, the backfires have been vicious, but again, we'll see if part 3 of Bast prophecy overshadows those or not.
    T'challa has also fought his Great society foe and was still standing while Tony Hulk (got knocked out) and namor got punked by theirs. Beast didn't even get to fight lol
    T'challa was taking down war machine drones with ease as well.
    And now he's built and Arc in addition to co-building the anti-matter bombs

    he's had some good showing under Hickman during this time where every characters personality is being tested and pushed to the max.

    also


    Hickman didn't mind showcasing a strong black couple >_>

  3. #7503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    T'challa has also fought his Great society foe and was still standing while Tony Hulk (got knocked out) and namor got punked by theirs. Beast didn't even get to fight lol
    T'challa was taking down war machine drones with ease as well.
    And now he's built and Arc in addition to co-building the anti-matter bombs

    he's had some good showing under Hickman during this time where every characters personality is being tested and pushed to the max.

    also


    Hickman didn't mind showcasing a strong black couple >_>



  4. #7504
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    Doom lost nothing in Doomwar. Absolutely nothing. Namor lost everything first and nearly died (caused by Wakanda, BP, BB and himself), Thanos' Cabal lost the first time and were trapped/killed. Black Swan wouldn't have been trapped in the first place without T'Challa. That's a clear difference.


    I'm annoyed by how Wakanda was handled (despite knowing it was going to happen since FF), but lets not front, Panther has done way more than he did in Doomwar. Yeah, the backfires have been vicious, but again, we'll see if part 3 of Bast prophecy overshadows those or not.
    No doubt Wakanda got revenge against Namor and Wakanda and I agree with your post. But in that particular post, I was pointing out that T'Challa hasn't done anything of significance lately and neither has the Illuminati. I would count his stabbing Namor but that lasted less than 2 issues.

    I'm not knocking Hickman at all and I like his writing. But the Illuminati has been ineffective these past few months.

  5. #7505
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    It might have been a good story. But the problem with Doomwar was the level of damage that Doom inflicted on Wakanda and T'Challa and he waked away relatively unscathed. Forget that...he was unscathed. S'yan killed, Ramona and Storm assaulted, Dora Milaje and many other Wakandans killed, a civil war and Bast punked.

    Doom suffered no consequences other than an uninspired threat. The villains working with him suffered little to no casualties at all. Even if T'Challa didn't kill Doom, he could have done a lot more against him than what he did.
    They mentioned that Doom took a financial hit.

    But yeah... he walked away relatively unscathed. Which honestly is not all that unusual. He often does walk away unscathed. And that again in part is due to him being used elsewhere. It was a matter of borrowing the toy from someone else's sandbox and returning it back in the same condition you got it, because 2-3 other people needed to use it.

    That's why you can argue Doom shouldn't have been used. There are more inherent limitations when using him, ESPECIALLY at that time.

  6. #7506
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    The Wrecking Crew are a perfect example of villains who started out as tough enough to give Thor trouble then later turned into jokes that can't even beat up Captain America, let alone Spider Man.

    When you get beaten up badly every time you show up, folks tend not to take you seriously as a threat.

    Every Fantastic Four rogue that ISN'T Doom or Galactus has had this happen to them.
    Yeah, it's an inherent weakness in the Genre. Villains, no matter how bad @$$ they might be in the debuts, are inherenty losers. They're designed to fail, because heroes have to always win in the end. They lose again and again and again, and after a certain point it's hard to take them that seriously UNLESS writers goes to great lengths to retain their credibility, like we see with Doom and Thanos. I know some comic readers are occasionally put off by how protected Doom and Thanos are, but when you've only got like 2 villains with any real cred, you do have to go to some pretty extreme lengths to make people forget that they're essentially losers like all the other villains.

    Over in the DC side of things, I recall how uber guys like Bane and Doomsday where when they FIRST debuted... but they got watered down more and more to the point where they're just shells of their former selves. That's what they DON'T want to happen to characters like Thanos and Doom, which is why writers will go to the lengths they go through to make them as bad @$$ as possible before they end of having them fail and lose for the millionth time.

    And it's probably a part of the value of hero vs hero stories. We know villains will lose. At least in hero vs hero at times it's less of a foregone conclusion.

  7. #7507
    Incredible Member FriendRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    No doubt Wakanda got revenge against Namor and Wakanda and I agree with your post. But in that particular post, I was pointing out that T'Challa hasn't done anything of significance lately and neither has the Illuminati. I would count his stabbing Namor but that lasted less than 2 issues.

    I'm not knocking Hickman at all and I like his writing. But the Illuminati has been ineffective these past few months.

    just a in general observation.. mildly on topic... mostly i guess..


    what has revenge ever created? what good ever flows from it? seriously. in real life. someone has wronged you. you carry around all this negative energy and keep hammering on that chip on your shoulder to keep it fresh..... gigantic waste of time if you ask me


    what ever small nugget of "i got you" received from exacting revenge... is it not out weighed by the cost of keeping that fire burning and the personal torture that entails?

    isn't revenge selfish? the energy put into the constant plotting planning resenting etc... put that energy into something positive


    ok im done
    Last edited by FriendRoss; 03-16-2015 at 07:35 PM.

  8. #7508
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendRoss View Post
    just a in general observation.. mildly on topic... mostly i guess..


    what has revenge ever created? what good ever flows from it? seriously. in real life. someone has wronged you. you carry around all this negative energy and keep hammering on that chip on your shoulder to keep it fresh..... gigantic waste of time if you ask me
    I think at least in regards to Wakanda and Atlantis, you can argue that was sort of the moral of the story.

    Wakanda chose not to accept the peace treaty with Atlantis, and both nations in the end ended up destroying each other. T'Challa gets his revenge against Namor, and ends up ruining the Illuminati's plan to put an end to the Cabal.

    You can certainly argue that revenge hasn't done T'Challa or Wakanda a whole lot of good up to this point.

  9. #7509
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, it's an inherent weakness in the Genre. Villains, no matter how bad @$$ they might be in the debuts, are inherenty losers. They're designed to fail, because heroes have to always win in the end. They lose again and again and again, and after a certain point it's hard to take them that seriously UNLESS writers goes to great lengths to retain their credibility, like we see with Doom and Thanos. I know some comic readers are occasionally put off by how protected Doom and Thanos are, but when you've only got like 2 villains with any real cred, you do have to go to some pretty extreme lengths to make people forget that they're essentially losers like all the other villains.

    Over in the DC side of things, I recall how uber guys like Bane and Doomsday where when they FIRST debuted... but they got watered down more and more to the point where they're just shells of their former selves. That's what they DON'T want to happen to characters like Thanos and Doom, which is why writers will go to the lengths they go through to make them as bad @$$ as possible before they end of having them fail and lose for the millionth time.

    And it's probably a part of the value of hero vs hero stories. We know villains will lose. At least in hero vs hero at times it's less of a foregone conclusion.
    True.

    As much fun as the Flash Rogues are, their defining trait is getting beaten by the Flash. Now some comics like the ones where Wally West was the Flash made use of the Rogues loserdom to semi comedic ends.

    Then you have things like the Superior Foes book,where the premise is all the characters in the book are jobbers in denial (and Shocker, the oldest Spidey baddie in the book is written the the most pathetic because he's been losing longer than any of them).

    Marvel's aware of how pathetic most of their antagonists have gotten.

    Its why Doom and Thanos get special treatment and why charismatic bad guys like Sabertooth and Taskmaster get turned into anti heroes to save their rep.

    Even Sabertooth at his worst got to win way more than the average villain ( even if those wins were against no names in his miniseries).

  10. #7510
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    I would think that's why so many new bad guys don't stick around in a lot of cases. They don't have the same feel as some of the older villains. One reason I'm guessing that so many top tier villains become anti heroes is because of the fact that fans of them want them winning rather then losing, so they have to adjust to that. Honestly I wouldn't mind it if Marvel let a bad guy win for once, even though they would eventually get over thrown. It might be fun seeing how the heroes deal with that sort of situation.

    Ororo and T'challa. Oh how I've actually missed that couple. I always thought under a good writer those two really work, much more then say Wolverine and her or Nightcrawler.

    Isn't Taskmaster back to being evil now?

  11. #7511
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    I would think that's why so many new bad guys don't stick around in a lot of cases. They don't have the same feel as some of the older villains. One reason I'm guessing that so many top tier villains become anti heroes is because of the fact that fans of them want them winning rather then losing, so they have to adjust to that. Honestly I wouldn't mind it if Marvel let a bad guy win for once, even though they would eventually get over thrown. It might be fun seeing how the heroes deal with that sort of situation.

    Ororo and T'challa. Oh how I've actually missed that couple. I always thought under a good writer those two really work, much more then say Wolverine and her or Nightcrawler.

    Isn't Taskmaster back to being evil now?
    Yeah, I think marvel has to get in the habit of having the villains win a big one every once in awhile. Obviously not to the degree that they kill the super hero or anything... but at least to allow some of them to start coming off less like jokes.

    As far as Ororo and T'Challa... I thought they were handled well in Fantastic Four. That's probably where marvel did the best job of making use of their marriage. Though I'm not sure in hindsight the marriage was a good idea for a variety of reasons, we did see some good stuff between them. It's a shame we couldn't see more.

  12. #7512
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I think marvel has to get in the habit of having the villains win a big one every once in awhile. Obviously not to the degree that they kill the super hero or anything... but at least to allow some of them to start coming off less like jokes.

    As far as Ororo and T'Challa... I thought they were handled well in Fantastic Four. That's probably where marvel did the best job of making use of their marriage. Though I'm not sure in hindsight the marriage was a good idea for a variety of reasons, we did see some good stuff between them. It's a shame we couldn't see more.
    It would be cool if there was a case where the villains did manage to take over a city, or get away with something, for example, Villain A manages to have his or her operation stopped by the hero, only thing is that they're able to use a plan B and have maybe part of their plan come about and there's nothing the hero could do about it, at the present. In the near future that could change, but at least have the villain show that they could win in some way or another. DC for all the annoyances I have with them seems to keep a better tab on their villains as villains for the most part save for a few that fall into the grey area (and most, if not all, are Batman's rogues).

    Which run was that for the FF? Yeah I agree, I think the idea of superhero marriage is a balancing act, especially when the two characters come from two very different books and have vastly different supporting casts. I do think it can be done, just needs a lot of planning needs to be done to make sure both books get equal time with the characters. It's funny that it was in a book with a married couple that it worked best. Wonder if it has to do with the mentality of the writer when they get tasked with writing FF if they're thinking more about how a married couple would act and then that transmits onto any guest characters that are also married?

    Also of note, while I didn't like the sequence when Black Swan appeared before Wakanda and the teens got killed, I have to say the panel where the action is taking place and the shield breaks is really really well done as you can feel the speed of the shots being fired and the motion in the moment. Also the foreground and background really made it pop out. Props to the artist, who's name I can't think of at the moment.

  13. #7513
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I think marvel has to get in the habit of having the villains win a big one every once in awhile. Obviously not to the degree that they kill the super hero or anything... but at least to allow some of them to start coming off less like jokes.

    As far as Ororo and T'Challa... I thought they were handled well in Fantastic Four. That's probably where marvel did the best job of making use of their marriage. Though I'm not sure in hindsight the marriage was a good idea for a variety of reasons, we did see some good stuff between them. It's a shame we couldn't see more.
    I did love them in Fantastic Four.

    The reason why some of their stories weren't good is because the writers keep writing BP that he doesn't want Storm to interfere. Writers should realize that they're already married, so they should be helping each other in defeating their enemies.

  14. #7514
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RLAAMJR. View Post
    I did love them in Fantastic Four.

    The reason why some of their stories weren't good is because the writers keep writing BP that he doesn't want Storm to interfere. Writers should realize that they're already married, so they should be helping each other in defeating their enemies.
    Exactly! It's like having Reed to tell Sue not to help out in FF, makes no sense. You have a woman that could whip up storms, bring down lighting, so much stuff and is a strong leader in her own right. It's a shame that writers can't, or won't, build on that idea. I'd love to have seen T'challa use some of Wakanda's tech to help out the X-men and vice versa. Also I would have thought that they would, if written better, a more real discussion regarding the whole AvX situation rather then the whole fight that occurred between them. (Did they break them up so Storm could go out with Logan?)

  15. #7515
    Astonishing Member Double 0's Avatar
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    I don't have anything to say about the marriage but this:

    Through that marriage, Marvel proved why they need more diverse writers. Look at the writers who made the marriage look great, and then look at the ones who made it look mediocre/bad. Proofs in the pudding.
    "Race is a social construct, they say. And I remind them that money is a social construct, too. Social constructs have power." — DeRay Mckesson

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