Avengers #29 (Spoilers)

[Marvell2100]

The point of evacuating would be to destroy the Earth you just evacuated from. If you keep it intact, you'll die anyway, because both universes will get destroyed and not just the two Earths.

Then it falls back to the problem of time. The Illuminati don't have the time, hence the need for the weapons which you, I and a few others have been saying is the pragmatic, realistic approach to this problem. It doesn't make the Illuminati evil or less heroic. It just puts them in a situation that they've dealt with before. Saying that they're less than heroic or evil is forgetting that all of them have risked their lives time and time again not only for this Earth but for other planets as well. Calling them evil is a huge disservice.

[XPac]

No it's Steve's fault for not trying to have a rational conversation and throwing the first punch. The same thing that Scott was accused of in AvX. Tony was trying to tell him that they didn't blow up a planet but Steve made up his mind already that they did. And even if Tony explained, would Steve have believed him? In his current state of mind, no.

Sure, you can fault Steve for Steve's actions. I'm just saying that Stark should be faulted as well for frankly making himself look as bad as possible, while that the rest of the Avengers were overall pretty fair about it all things considered.

[ShaokhaN]

When you consider how Stark reacted in similar situations in like Civil War and Armor Wars, I'm not sure you can even really blame Hickman all that much. This is sort of how Stark SOMETIMES reacts when he's backed into a corner. I'm not defending it obviously... but I can't say I'm entirely surprised either.

But certainly I would agree Stark should have handled that situation better. Perhaps we can chalk it up to him really hitting a breaking point here.

True, but at the same time we saw him explain the situation pretty clearly to Banner in the previous issue. All he had to do was say the same thing here.

[Marvell2100]

I blame it on Hickman - Stark could have easily defused the tension with the other Avengers present by at least explaining the situation to them. In fact, we could have seen Thor, Hyperion and Starbrand help the Illuminati with the next incursion. Instead, he powers up his armors, tells Cap "what are you going to do about it?", and ends up fighting the entire group because Cap jumps him. Like I said earlier in the thread, this felt very contrived (not Cap's anger, but the fact that Tony acted almost exactly the worse way imaginable).

Remember, Tony tried but that's when Steve threw the punch. I guess he had enough. And Steve had plenty of time to tell about his role in the Illuminati. Also this, if he remembered everything about the Incursion problem why wasn't his first question, is the threat over instead of asking Tony what is he hiding?

[ShaokhaN]

Then it falls back to the problem of time. The Illuminati don't have the time, hence the need for the weapons which you, I and a few others have been saying is the pragmatic, realistic approach to this problem. It doesn't make the Illuminati evil or less heroic. It just puts them in a situation that they've dealt with before. Saying that they're less than heroic or evil is forgetting that all of them have risked their lives time and time again not only for this Earth but for other planets as well. Calling them evil is a huge disservice.

Yes I know, but I was responding to your post "And let's say that the Illuminati has found a way to safely evacuate everyone off Earth 616 without having to destroy the other Earth. The Incursion still happens right? So while the population of Earth 616 is saved, what happens to the billions of people on the other Earth? They die in the Incursion. So would that be considered morally right, evacuating your planet knowing that billions of people will die?"

Like I said, evacuating is not enough, since if nothing is done both universes will die, not just the two Earths. Evacuating your Earth without destroying it is pointless, and if you destroy it the other universe and its Earth are saved. Your scenario "we are safe because we evacuated but the population of the other Earth is doomed because it didn't" cannot happen (unless you're evacuating outside of your universe, in which case you are not affected by your universe dying with the other).

Remember, Tony tried but that's when Steve threw the punch. I guess he had enough. And Steve had plenty of time to tell about his role in the Illuminati. Also this, if he remembered everything about the Incursion problem why wasn't his first question, is the threat over instead of asking Tony what is he hiding?

Don't get me wrong, I also blame Cap, but Tony had plenty of time to explain himself after Cap's first punch. Hawkeye restrained Cap after that punch and Tony still did not use the time to accurately explain what was going on - he instead activated the armors, made a joke, and ended up telling Cap "what are we going to do about it?", which was quite the cue for a fight

[XPac]

Then it falls back to the problem of time. The Illuminati don't have the time, hence the need for the weapons which you, I and a few others have been saying is the pragmatic, realistic approach to this problem. It doesn't make the Illuminati evil or less heroic. It just puts them in a situation that they've dealt with before. Saying that they're less than heroic or evil is forgetting that all of them have risked their lives time and time again not only for this Earth but for other planets as well. Calling them evil is a huge disservice.

If they opt to evacuate the earth and destroy it before an incursion takes place, they may well might have the time. It's simply a matter of having a means to do it in place, rather than scrambling to do it in the 8 hour window.

A phone call to Lila Chenney for example creates both the means of evacuating the world, and a place to put them. It's a viable option... which is likely why Hickman is ignoring it. Hell, look what Wanda is doing over in Uncanny. With a bit of additional juice, evacuating a world and making Jupiter (a rediculously bad choice) habitable is well within their means. Franklin has done comparable feats in the past, and I'm certain Legion could as well.

The point being that there ARE options. The author is ignoring them for understandable story reasons. And for the purposes of enjoying the story I can apply a bit of suspension of belief and pretend they don't exist. I'm just not going to do that when I'm having actual discussions of the story on forums.

[XPac]

True, but at the same time we saw him explain the situation pretty clearly to Banner in the previous issue. All he had to do was say the same thing here.

And had he handled Civil War the way he handled Banner, we might not have had a Civil War too. Yeah, Stark is on occasion capable of not acting like a complete deuche. But sometimes he does, and sometimes that ends up making already bad situations worse.

Which isn't to say Steve wasn't obviously acting out as well, though given that he was mind wiped that was somewhat understandable from his position.

[Marvell2100]

Yes I know, but I was responding to your post "And let's say that the Illuminati has found a way to safely evacuate everyone off Earth 616 without having to destroy the other Earth. The Incursion still happens right? So while the population of Earth 616 is saved, what happens to the billions of people on the other Earth? They die in the Incursion. So would that be considered morally right, evacuating your planet knowing that billions of people will die?"

Like I said, evacuating is not enough, since if nothing is done both universes will die, not just the two Earths. Evacuating your Earth without destroying it is pointless, and if you destroy it the other universe and its Earth are saved. Your scenario "we are safe because we evacuated but the population of the other Earth is doomed because it didn't" cannot happen (unless you're evacuating outside of your universe).


Don't get me wrong, I also blame Cap, but Tony had plenty of time to explain himself after Cap's first punch. Hawkeye restrained Cap after that punch and Tony still did not use the time to accurately explain what was going on - he instead activated the armors and ended up telling Cap "what are we going to do about it?".

Sure, Tony could have explained himself but Steve just sucker punched him with some of the most powerful Avengers backing him up. He was pissed. My question still is if Tony had told Steve would Steve have believed him? If we look at the whole picture then we can blame the entire Illuminati Steve included for not bringing in more people to deal with this in the first place.

[Marvell2100]

If they opt to evacuate the earth and destroy it before an incursion takes place, they may well might have the time. It's simply a matter of having a means to do it in place, rather than scrambling to do it in the 8 hour window.

A phone call to Lila Chenney for example creates both the means of evacuating the world, and a place to put them. It's a viable option... which is likely why Hickman is ignoring it. Hell, look what Wanda is doing over in Uncanny. With a bit of additional juice, evacuating a world and making Jupiter (a rediculously bad choice) habitable is well within their means. Franklin has done comparable feats in the past, and I'm certain Legion could as well.

The point being that there ARE options. The author is ignoring them for understandable story reasons. And for the purposes of enjoying the story I can apply a bit of suspension of belief and pretend they don't exist. I'm just not going to do that when I'm having actual discussions of the story on forums.

You can apply your suspension of disbelief wherever you choose. That's not changing what's happening in the story so you'll just have to deal with it.

[XPac]

Sure, Tony could have explained himself but Steve just sucker punched him with some of the most powerful Avengers backing him up. He was pissed. My question still is if Tony had told Steve would Steve have believed him? If we look at the whole picture then we can blame the entire Illuminati Steve included for not bringing in more people to deal with this in the first place.

Steve has a out. He was mind wiped so he couldn't bring in more people. And prior to that more people weren't needed because they had a means of dealing with the incursion... the Infinity Gems. If Steve planned on keeping the incursions a secret from everyone else after the use of the gems, he could be equally criticized. But given the relatively short window of time between using the gems and the mind wipe, I don't think it's really much of an issue in his case.

Of course, he remembers it now so we'll see how Steve handles it. Presumably he'll at least tell the other Avengers when he's able (the current situation may prevent him from doing that anytime soon depending on what the heck is happening with the time gem).

[XPac]

You can apply your suspension of disbelief wherever you choose. That's not changing what's happening in the story so you'll just have to deal with it.

Sure. But my point is that Lila Chenney and cosmic cubes still exist in the Marvel Universe, regardless of how many times the Illuminati argue they have no other options. The characers (and the writer by default) ignoring the other options doesn't mean they don't exist. So I at least am quite comfortable in arguing there are indeed other options regardless of whether the Illuminati say there aren't. The Great Society clearly found some.

And I hate to keep harping on this, but they needed Steve to frankly think of using the Infinity Gems. They're the guardians of the gems, and they didn't think to use them. That I think is a pretty descent indicator of how limited in scope the Illuminati are thinking.

[gregyo]

It certainly didn't help Stark's case that he attacked the Avengers with all the Iron Man bots.

Side note: Was this issue why Tony was so beat up in NA? Because that's hilarious.

[XPac]

It certainly didn't help Stark's case that he attacked the Avengers with all the Iron Man bots.

Side note: Was this issue why Tony was so beat up in NA? Because that's hilarious.

I would presume so. Though given Tony's lifestyle getting beat up is probably just a daily reality.

Physical damage aside, he did seem to be losing it upstairs and that does dovetail perfectly with what just happened in Avengers.

[UltimateTy]

It certainly didn't help Stark's case that he attacked the Avengers with all the Iron Man bots.

Side note: Was this issue why Tony was so beat up in NA? Because that's hilarious.

So you expect him to just allow himself get beat up?

[gregyo]

So you expect him to just allow himself get beat up?

He started threatening them with the robots before the fight started.