The Mission: What Marvel and DC Comics can learn from Fox's "Empire"

[CBR News]

Inspired by the writers' room of "Empire," Joseph Illidge wonders it comics publishers could succeed with programs to help foster diverse talent.


Full article here.

[Cmbmool]

At least Marvel gives some of their African American heroes a chance to headline their own comics. With DC is more of a sad joke. Cyborg maybe on the Justice League in the new 52, but he's no where near popular enough to gain an on-going series, since DC got rid of his former Teen Titans past.

Even despite rumors of a Cyborg On-going.

[Smoov-E]

Having a more diverse group of people working behind the scenes is something that should be strived for( which is what the article is talking about that people keep missing ), while folks are quick to give all the props to Bruce Timm for JL/JLU they over look that Dwayne McDuffie helped take the writing for the show to a new level and odds are certain he had a hand in whichever episode is your most beloved. Married With Children was co-created by a black guy who also served as a head writer and it's looked at as one of the greatest shows of all time. Black Dynamite the Series also has a diverse staff from writing to animating and it's consistently of high quality and a top rated show

Also having a diverse staff helps these companies to stop doing the bs that generally befalls characters of color that common sense should say you shouldn't do

[Marvell2100]

Having a more diverse group of people working behind the scenes is something that should be strived for( which is what the article is talking about that people keep missing ), while folks are quick to give all the props to Bruce Timm for JL/JLU they over look that Dwayne McDuffie helped take the writing for the show to a new level and odds are certain he had a hand in whichever episode is your most beloved. Married With Children was co-created by a black guy who also served as a head writer and it's looked at as one of the greatest shows of all time. Black Dynamite the Series also has a diverse staff from writing to animating and it's consistently of high quality and a top rated show

Also having a diverse staff helps these companies to stop doing the bs that generally befalls characters of color that common sense should say you shouldn't do

This x1000. Then 1000 more.

[Hypestyle]

I've felt for years that DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, Image, should have annual "new talent try out" programs, in writing, drawing/inking, coloring, lettering; and the winner(s) get to directly participate in a one-shot or a digital mini-series. Nobody would be guaranteed "superstardom" through this program, but it would be a good way to see who all is out there and for up and comers to get some formal credits outside of whatever self-publishing initiative that may not yield much in the way of publicity in the "everybody's doing it" era, to say nothing of the modest (if any) financial returns.

[harashkupo]

I've felt for years that DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, Image, should have annual "new talent try out" programs, in writing, drawing/inking, coloring, lettering; and the winner(s) get to directly participate in a one-shot or a digital mini-series. Nobody would be guaranteed "superstardom" through this program, but it would be a good way to see who all is out there and for up and comers to get some formal credits outside of whatever self-publishing initiative that may not yield much in the way of publicity in the "everybody's doing it" era, to say nothing of the modest (if any) financial returns.

Didn't Image have something like this for their Artifacts series not so long ago? I think for a couple months they had a new writer and a new artist with an original story each issue.

[gantz_alien_killer]

without diversity boards just how did Jim Lee and Ann Nocenti, Elaine Lee, George Perez and others get their jobs?

[cranger]

It is really hard to compare comic publishing to television. While it is something to strive for, there are probably as many writers on any given show as there are writers at all of Marvel or DC. Aside from so-called editorial retreats there is not a lot of teamwork in comics. You cannot diversify a writing pool when writing is individual and comics are supposed to be an individual expression. That is not to say the comic market would not be better with more representation, that is simple because it would mean it was big enough and the pool was deep enough, just that it is so different from television that I do not what lesson can be learned.

[skyvolt2000]

without diversity boards just how did Jim Lee and Ann Nocenti, Elaine Lee, George Perez and others get their jobs?

You re talking about a different era. The market was way bigger with everyone fighting for talent. While you had racism, you still had folks getting shots.

You also had folks work their way up. Remember McDuffie & Priest were editors before they started doing books. McDuffie was selling jokes to some guy named David Letterman and editing books.

It also helped some of those folks struck gold. Perez did with Teen Titans. Lee-with X-Men. McDuffie-3 Damage Control minis and almost got She Hulk before some guy named John got her.


The reason people are asking for it now-to offer a different voice of reason so we don't get stuff like New 52 Wally West, characters of color being stuck in limbo or discover new talent so we don't have Johns or Bendis doing 50 books. And to educate fans who seem to get offended if POC write a book. See McDuffie's JLA run. If you got folks of a diverse background behind the scenes-your fans can't complain.

Married With Children was co-created by a black guy who also served as a head writer and it's looked at as one of the greatest shows of all time.

Folks will be amazed at how many shows had black and other POC behind the scenes working on them. Heck one of the black writers for Married had a hand in most of the 90s shows on Fox, WB, UPN and Nickelodeon.

If it wasn't for King of Queens might not have ever aired.

I've felt for years that DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, Image, should have annual "new talent try out" programs, in writing, drawing/inking, coloring, lettering; and the winner(s) get to directly participate in a one-shot or a digital mini-series. Nobody would be guaranteed "superstardom" through this program, but it would be a good way to see who all is out there and for up and comers to get some formal credits outside of whatever self-publishing initiative that may not yield much in the way of publicity in the "everybody's doing it" era, to say nothing of the modest (if any) financial returns.

I think DC did this in the 80s. Image had pilot season years ago.

[Cmbmool]

Having a more diverse group of people working behind the scenes is something that should be strived for( which is what the article is talking about that people keep missing ), while folks are quick to give all the props to Bruce Timm for JL/JLU they over look that Dwayne McDuffie helped take the writing for the show to a new level and odds are certain he had a hand in whichever episode is your most beloved. Married With Children was co-created by a black guy who also served as a head writer and it's looked at as one of the greatest shows of all time. Black Dynamite the Series also has a diverse staff from writing to animating and it's consistently of high quality and a top rated show

Also having a diverse staff helps these companies to stop doing the bs that generally befalls characters of color that common sense should say you shouldn't do

Well said indeed. Which makes me feel kind of sad over how McDuffie's work is being treated now a days by DC.

[Smoov-E]

Well said indeed. Which makes me feel kind of sad over how McDuffie's work is being treated now a days by DC.

The comic industry brass as a whole did McDuffie dirty, short stints with Batman/Superman/Fantastic Four in favor of others who got run with those characters for long runs that no one remembers. When he past little kids of all colors made Ben 10 tributes to the man meanwhile industry big wigs are tripping over themselves saying they loved his work( but not enough to give him a no strings attached gig )

[BrandonEaston]

It is really hard to compare comic publishing to television. While it is something to strive for, there are probably as many writers on any given show as there are writers at all of Marvel or DC. Aside from so-called editorial retreats there is not a lot of teamwork in comics. You cannot diversify a writing pool when writing is individual and comics are supposed to be an individual expression. That is not to say the comic market would not be better with more representation, that is simple because it would mean it was big enough and the pool was deep enough, just that it is so different from television that I do not what lesson can be learned.

This is all completely false.

As someone who works in television and comics, there is no such thing as "individual" comics at Marvel and DC unless you're talking about certain titles at Vertigo, and even then, there's a lengthy editorial process from A to B. There's quality control on all levels.

The main difference between TV and comics is that the powers that be in TV are more likely to take a shot on a new writer of color than the comics industry will. Diversifying a talent pool means that everybody gets a shot to pitch stories, as opposed to the three or four guys who get a shot now. I know plenty of African-American TV writers who have not been given a chance to pitch at Marvel or DC whereas I know white writers with few credits in anything who get a chance at writing comics.

It's not right. Just for the sake of good business, it's illogical to keep the same guys writing the same stories that aren't selling well overall. Editors have their favorites, those favorites get to pitch just about everything.

Those comics get published, the reviews are middling, the sales drop, the books get canceled and these guys get shots at other books in the future. Rinse, cycle, repeat.

There's too much verifiable history here to try to pretend this isn't the case.

B.

[cranger]

This is all completely false.

You failed to show how anything I said was false, let alone completely false. I am talking writers, not editors (which, by the way, I mentioned as the one spot where more than one person gets involved), as many comic book readers will pick up a book based on the writer and artist listed on the cover and not look at anything past that.

But you are correct about another of the differences between TV and comics, but again that just shows the difference I was getting at: the scale of the two industries. Comics are too niche a market, there are not enough big players. Those with the ability to try are probably running a pretty tight margin in the first place. Where a concept for television can crash and burn and be replaced with some other pitch a comic book that completely flops will be felt more. The audiences for the two are completely different beasts as well.

[BrandonEaston]

You failed to show how anything I said was false, let alone completely false. I am talking writers, not editors (which, by the way, I mentioned as the one spot where more than one person gets involved), as many comic book readers will pick up a book based on the writer and artist listed on the cover and not look at anything past that.

But you are correct about another of the differences between TV and comics, but again that just shows the difference I was getting at: the scale of the two industries. Comics are too niche a market, there are not enough big players. Those with the ability to try are probably running a pretty tight margin in the first place. Where a concept for television can crash and burn and be replaced with some other pitch a comic book that completely flops will be felt more. The audiences for the two are completely different beasts as well.

To prevent the inevitable back-and-forth:

1) You said comic writing is individual - it is not. It is a collaborative process as I'm sure you'd know.

2) You also said, "You cannot diversify a writing pool when writing is individual and comics are supposed to be an individual expression." Outside of writer/artists like Frank Miller or Terry Moore or George Perez (etc.) most are creative teams. I don't understand how this makes sense?

What does diversity have to do with the false claim that comics are an individual expression? You can have diversity quite easily and still make comics. Again, it comes down to the guys the editors like. I know a lot of guys who are "in good" with editors and always get work even though their titles don't sell. I won't name names because that's not cool, but there's at least 5 dudes I know of offhand who work at major (and indie) companies who do not have the track record that many ignored Black writers currently have.

I'm trying to figure out what your justification for this can be? Other than likability, what would explain the continued "blackout" of African-American writers at comic book companies?

It simply doesn't make sense until folks are ready to be honest.

B.

[Javes001]

Is it me or this more like television has the room to diversify while the comic medium is kind of cramped with very little being able to change?

Unlike television and movies the comic market is way too small and the talent pool is often too big. This is especially true for superhero books which are slowly going the way of the dodo. If I remember right DC and Marvel don’t really review or invite new talent in unless it comes from previous success, usually that means the indie, foreign, literary, or celebrity scene.

In fact at this point I would almost say that the ideal goals for an up and coming comic book writer is to have moderate success in the indie seen (Image, Dark Horse, Oni, or other publishers not attached to Marvel or DC). After that they get noticed by Marvel or DC and write a B or C list character or maybe a team book for a while. Then they write one the big books, particularly Batman or the X-men, but Spiderman or Superman are also acceptable. Upon completion of that run they return to the indie seen with the new audience they have acquired from their stay at the ‘big two’. OR continue at the big two and have free reign over any character/team they want.

I am not saying DC and Marvel shouldn’t hire new talent. I am saying that new talent can’t be expected to be hired without any experience nowadays