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  1. #61
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Rosa, most of us have read the story, but what's your point? You're not going to convince anyone who likes the character to stop liking her, and that story has not only been retconned a lot, it was retconned within the story.

    That is, it starts off saying that Wanda's kids are figments of her imagination, but then reveals that they were actually pieces of Mephisto's soul, and the reason the children disappeared when she wasn't thinking about them is that her pregnancy spell went wrong. The idea that the character was so baby-crazy she imagined she had children by a robot isn't even backed up within this story, let alone anyone else's.

    Not that I blame John Byrne for wanting to get rid of Wanda and Vision's kids, by the way. There was always something creepy about the two of them having children through magic, and especially Steve Englehart's insistence that this "proved" Vision was human (when in fact the reason they had to resort to magic is that he's not, at least physically, human). And super hero couples probably shouldn't have kids anyway. Unfortunately people who don't read closely - let's call them Ryan Rendis - got the impression that this was the story of a baby-crazy witch-bitch who imagined she got pregnant by a robot, when that's not what happens in the story, it's not what happens in Englehart's story, it's not what happens in any story. A lot of weird stuff can happen when people write comics based on their vague memories of other comics...
    Or choose to ignore it.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    While not excusing Wanda's treatment of Janet, she already had to face the rebooting of her husband's memory that effectively erased any emotions he had towards her. This doesn't absolve her completely of her actions, but it does mitigate them to some extent.
    I should be taking notes :P This argument could come in handy later on! (sorry, this was too easy)

  3. #63
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I should be taking notes :P This argument could come in handy later on! (sorry, this was too easy)
    That's why we distinguish between murder and homicide. It is standard in real-life trials. Intent and motivation play a big role in assigning guilt.
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  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin_O.A.W. View Post
    Not putting her on trial is more compelling. Because it shows how the Avengers coddle and protect their own... yet Magneto went on trial; Matt Murdock was on trial; The Human Torch was on trial - but never Wanda. She decimated a people, and before that she literally destroyed the Avengers - heck in the 80s she destroyed the West Coast Avengers. Wanda is the perfect one above fault. Not giving her due process... that's the more compelling narrative that I want to see openly addressed.

    I can go along with this.
    The Avengers aren't renowned to coddle their own. There have been a lot of instances where they preferred not to get involved in the other members' personal lives, even if getting involved would have been a real help to those in trouble. I don't think there have been a lot of instances where an Avenger is shown helping another Avenger with a personal problem...

    Having said that, I'm not sure a trial is the right thing for Wanda. If she's found innocent, people will complain she got a free pass. If she's found guilty, you basically paint the character out of the picture for a good while, which her fans won't appreciate (and with good reasons). I'm not knowledgeable enough in the character to pretend to know what she needs, whether it be therapy, advanced training to better control her powers and prevent others from claiming control over her...

    And whether or not the things she did was her doing or not... I don't know. In a court of law, how do you prove "possession"?

  5. #65
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    And whether or not the things she did was her doing or not... I don't know. In a court of law, how do you prove "possession"?
    In Slott's run of She-Hulk, he used the Eye of Agamotto to prove possession of an accused. It was considered admissible in a court of superhuman law.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    In Slott's run of She-Hulk, he used the Eye of Agamotto to prove possession of an accused. It was considered admissible in a court of superhuman law.
    Unfortunately that doesn't apply with Avengers Disassembled because Dr. Strange's use of the Eye of Agamotto was so weird and unprecedented that Jeff Parker's What If? story based on Disassembled (where Strange was an impostor) has Strange say scornfully "I wouldn't have used the Eye of Agamotto for that!" Oh, Brian.

  7. #67
    Incredible Member Shai-Hulud's Avatar
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    It seems unlikely to me that both Strange and Xavier would have missed the supposed fact of Wanda being possessed by a cosmic entity.

    Both men are experts in possession, both are intimately familiar with how Wanda's powers work, and both have encountered cosmic entities before. Strange is an expert in recognizing and dealing with such entities, and Xavier lost a student on account of she was possessed by a power-amplifying cosmic entity.

    And yet, they both missed it...?

    There's also the case that Xavier spent weeks inside Wanda's head on Genosha, but apparently missed both the fact of her possession and never uncovered any memories of her "marriage" to Doctor Doom!

    If the "life-force" retcon is Marvel's final canon on this subject, we have to conclude that Xavier and Strange are both incompetent in areas where they ought to be the acknowledged experts....

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shai-Hulud View Post
    It seems unlikely to me that both Strange and Xavier would have missed the supposed fact of Wanda being possessed by a cosmic entity.

    Both men are experts in possession, both are intimately familiar with how Wanda's powers work, and both have encountered cosmic entities before. Strange is an expert in recognizing and dealing with such entities, and Xavier lost a student on account of she was possessed by a power-amplifying cosmic entity.

    And yet, they both missed it...?

    There's also the case that Xavier spent weeks inside Wanda's head on Genosha, but apparently missed both the fact of her possession and never uncovered any memories of her "marriage" to Doctor Doom!

    If the "life-force" retcon is Marvel's final canon on this subject, we have to conclude that Xavier and Strange are both incompetent in areas where they ought to be the acknowledged experts....
    Those are very good points.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shai-Hulud View Post
    It seems unlikely to me that both Strange and Xavier would have missed the supposed fact of Wanda being possessed by a cosmic entity.

    Both men are experts in possession, both are intimately familiar with how Wanda's powers work, and both have encountered cosmic entities before. Strange is an expert in recognizing and dealing with such entities, and Xavier lost a student on account of she was possessed by a power-amplifying cosmic entity.

    And yet, they both missed it...?

    There's also the case that Xavier spent weeks inside Wanda's head on Genosha, but apparently missed both the fact of her possession and never uncovered any memories of her "marriage" to Doctor Doom!

    If the "life-force" retcon is Marvel's final canon on this subject, we have to conclude that Xavier and Strange are both incompetent in areas where they ought to be the acknowledged experts....
    Yes, that's how retcons work; they make characters look really stupid in retrospect. Obviously when Bendis wrote Disassembled and House of M he never thought Wanda was possessed and these two guys missed it. That came later as a retcon to make her usable again in the comics.

    But it really only is a problem if you view the stories as 100% "real" and don't make any allowances for the fact that writers are contradicting each other and overriding each other's stories. Disassembled contradicts all the previous stories about Wanda remembering her children; Children's Crusade makes Xavier and Strange look like idiots; it's all good if it's necessary for the story to advance. The "Life Force" story is now canon because it's necessary to make Wanda not guilty and not omnipotent, just like No More Mutants was canon because it was necessary to carry out editorial edicts.

    Honestly, though, it's not so weird that these two guys wouldn't notice her possession. Strange is characterized as being so out to lunch in Disassembled that he doesn't remember chaos magic exists or what happened to Wanda's children. Xavier doesn't know much about magic and starts House of M by telling Wanda she can't have children, which is not true. If Bendis makes these guys act like such dumbasses, what does it hurt to make them one level dumber?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shai-Hulud View Post
    It seems unlikely to me that both Strange and Xavier would have missed the supposed fact of Wanda being possessed by a cosmic entity.

    Both men are experts in possession, both are intimately familiar with how Wanda's powers work, and both have encountered cosmic entities before. Strange is an expert in recognizing and dealing with such entities, and Xavier lost a student on account of she was possessed by a power-amplifying cosmic entity.

    And yet, they both missed it...?

    There's also the case that Xavier spent weeks inside Wanda's head on Genosha, but apparently missed both the fact of her possession and never uncovered any memories of her "marriage" to Doctor Doom!

    If the "life-force" retcon is Marvel's final canon on this subject, we have to conclude that Xavier and Strange are both incompetent in areas where they ought to be the acknowledged experts....
    You're kind of expressing the same feelings Wanda fans felt over HoM and Disassembled...

    But, hey, the Life Force wrote Xavier out as dead in the House of Magneto alternate reality. Maybe he *did* find out about the possession.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    Wait, What ?.
    I meant by the writer, sorry I should have made that more clear.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROSA13 View Post
    so the Avengers are gods because they have a Movie ?
    In our society if you have money you might not be a god but you have a lot of freedom to get away with stuff. Let's face it while some fans might concerned about this in my opinion to marvel this is about as relevant as last weeks lunch menu. They had zero interest in stopping Bendis from trashing her and I don't think they give a darn about what she did. They operate on a Goldfish level memory, if it hasn't happened in the last year or it isn't affecting their latest mega-event then it just doesn't matter to them.

  13. #73
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin_O.A.W. View Post
    Not putting her on trial is more compelling. Because it shows how the Avengers coddle and protect their own... yet Magneto went on trial; Matt Murdock was on trial; The Human Torch was on trial - but never Wanda. She decimated a people, and before that she literally destroyed the Avengers - heck in the 80s she destroyed the West Coast Avengers. Wanda is the perfect one above fault. Not giving her due process... that's the more compelling narrative that I want to see openly addressed.

    I can go along with this.
    It was already addressed at the start of House of M.

    The mutants didn't want Wanda's actions publically known since it might cause a backlash against mutants, so the X-Men and Avengers jointly agreed to cover up her actions.

    Once the issue of possession was brought up, the Avengers and X-Men again jointly agreed she shouldn't be locked up. Every hero at one point or another has been mind controlled or possessed. It's always been the comic book free pass.

    They can of course bring these issues up again in another story, but there's really no point since it's already been addressed. At this point I personally wouldn't see the point.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    yes absolutely she should be put on trial. and i would like to summon doctor victor von doom as the first witness.

  15. #75
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shai-Hulud View Post
    It seems unlikely to me that both Strange and Xavier would have missed the supposed fact of Wanda being possessed by a cosmic entity.

    Both men are experts in possession, both are intimately familiar with how Wanda's powers work, and both have encountered cosmic entities before. Strange is an expert in recognizing and dealing with such entities, and Xavier lost a student on account of she was possessed by a power-amplifying cosmic entity.

    And yet, they both missed it...?

    There's also the case that Xavier spent weeks inside Wanda's head on Genosha, but apparently missed both the fact of her possession and never uncovered any memories of her "marriage" to Doctor Doom!

    If the "life-force" retcon is Marvel's final canon on this subject, we have to conclude that Xavier and Strange are both incompetent in areas where they ought to be the acknowledged experts....
    As to her memories of the marriage, Xavier would not have seen any such memories since Wanda and Victor's engagement hadn't even happened yet. She just sort of drops off the radar after HoM until we see Hawkeye and the Beast encountering an amnesiac Wanda in Transia.


    The marriage ceremony was going to take place in CC #4 but just a day or so before it was to take place, Magneto, the YA and Wolverine showed up in Latveria to stop it from taking place. We really don't know how long Wanda and Victor were engaged or how long she lived at Castle Doom. But it could have been as far back as NA #26 where Hawkeye found Wanda in Transia and then slept with her. There was even a joke in in CC about Hawkeye for sleeping with a Doombot. But again, this was a while after HoM.

    Doctor Strange, as others have mentioned, has been so inconsistently portrayed by writers, particularly Bendis, that it is... mystifying. First he has him claim there is no such thing as Chaos magic but then I think later Bendis backtracks on that. Then you have in HoM where Strange says she was always crazy or something but then way back when Wanda was pregnant, etc. Doctor Strange pretty much gave it his blessing and said all was OK.

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