Calculations in Marvel's Diversity

[MsAngel]

I fail to see where you're getting this "entitlement" vibe from especially as the points that Marvell2100 brought up in his post are varifiably based on what's beeen published in the 616 MU to date.

The Marvel Universe has comprised of a wide range of characters of all backgrounds for as long as I can remember but for some unfathomable reason, Marvel have done a piss poor job of utilizing all of their properties across the board especially in relation to the allocation of solid creative teams and strong story arcs that open up all of the MU to as diverse a readership as possible without sacrificing overall quality and IP integrity.

To me there's no such thing as majority/minority characters.

Merely publishers unwilling to tell tales featuring strong characters regardless of ethinicity, gender or orientation.

^ This. Some of our favorites just happen to be minorities, but Marvel's tended to do horrible and offensive things to their female/ethnic minority/LGBT characters and are only just now pushing characters who have the fanbases to become A-list. Plus, I'll stop complaining about Marvel's fails at diversity when they stop saying it's a priority.

[Mr MajestiK]

^ This. Some of our favorites just happen to be minorities, but Marvel's tended to do horrible and offensive things to their female/ethnic minority/LGBT characters and are only just now pushing characters who have the fanbases to become A-list. Plus, I'll stop complaining about Marvel's fails at diversity when they stop saying it's a priority.

I love this post.

[Marvel_Is]

I fail to see where you're getting this "entitlement" vibe from especially as the points that Marvell2100 brought up in his post are varifiably based on what's beeen published in the 616 MU to date.

The Marvel Universe has comprised of a wide range of characters of all backgrounds for as long as I can remember but for some unfathomable reason, Marvel have done a piss poor job of utilizing all of their properties across the board especially in relation to the allocation of solid creative teams and strong story arcs that open up all of the MU to as diverse a readership as possible without sacrificing overall quality and IP integrity.

To me there's no such thing as majority/minority characters.

Merely publishers unwilling to tell tales featuring strong characters regardless of ethinicity, gender or orientation.

Yes, I know that minority-led series get axed from time to time, but so do non-minority titles. If it seems like it happens more frequently to minority-oriented titles it's because the support wasn't there from minorities themselves who talk of supporting each other.

A lot (if not most or all) of Marvel's staff members are fans of the characters. And just like the fans of the best-selling titles, which characters do you think are most loved overall? Marvel creators aren't just going to throw a hi-profile creative team on a minority-lead series just to appeal to minorities. Shocker, I know.

Marvel has stories to tell and the want to have fun doing them. The most fun characters tend to be the most popular (and that's no coincidence). Publishing plans also involve money and thusly returns. Just hyping a minority theme to get people to read is cheap and should be discouraged considering that minority-centric titles seem to falter because minority readers aren't as supportive as non-minority readers in general.

I understand why Minorities rally around Marvel since it's the biggest playground and all, but I don't think a lot of people understand how this medium and genre really works.

[classicgmer]

^ This. Some of our favorites just happen to be minorities, but Marvel's tended to do horrible and offensive things to their female/ethnic minority/LGBT characters and are only just now pushing characters who have the fanbases to become A-list. Plus, I'll stop complaining about Marvel's fails at diversity when they stop saying it's a priority.

Which characters that they're pushing would you say fall under this category & please don't say Ms. Marvel or Miles Morales because they're definitely not Z-list but at the same time they're not even close to becoming "A-list" at this point.

[Marvel_Is]

Personally, I don't know where I'm at with comics at the moment. I'm sick of wondering what hack job is going to happen to my favorite characters next. I can see it now, "The new Silver Surfer is a nightclub DJ!" I'm sick of knowing that even the most well-received book will start its numeration over again at #1 within the next year or two because its an easy cash grab. I'm sick of one "earth shattering" event after the other after the other after the other. And I'm sick of people trying to make me feel ashamed for preferring certain characters over others just because of gender/race/orientation. I'm sick of the double standards. You don't want Batgirl to look "out-of-character weak" on the cover of your favorite book? Fine. But then can I demand the same over this upcoming Daredevil cover? I know the answer is "no," so anyone feverishly typing up their "it's not the same!" response, you can relax. But, I find the reasons behind that answer are problematic at the moment.

I'm sorry that you feel this way and it's come to this. I know people need to take lengthy breaks from the genre from time to time, but I don't know if much will change.

[MsAngel]

Which characters that they're pushing would you say fall under this category & please don't say Ms. Marvel or Miles Morales because they're definitely not Z-list but at the same time they're not even close to becoming "A-list" at this point.

Captain Marvel (Carol), She-Hulk, and T'Challa have gotten pretty close, I'd say. Falcon could be soon due to his movie exposure. Black Widow is pretty much A-list now.

[aja_christopher]

It's not like this is the first time that Marvel has tried to push its minority characters, it's more of a periodic event that they have no qualms going back on if it doesn't benefit sales (and it practically never does). And when there's no real commitment besides pure commercialism behind this kind of strategy, the actual product tends to suffer, since the expectation doesn't go beyond readers opening up their wallets when they see a familiar face on the cover.

When done right it does.

Spider-Gwen, Silk, Thor, Princess Leia -- all top sellers.

Elektra, She-Hulk, Storm, Captain Marvel -- not so much. (Not a knock on these books/characters because most who read them say they were/are good titles.)

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...5/2015-03.html

It's not about "minorities" -- it's about original ideas, good promotion, and quality creative teams.

Conversely, it's not as if when Gambit, Moon Knight, and Venom don't sell (for the umpteenth time) people sit around saying "white male" books don't sell so let's drop the double standard.

[aja_christopher]

Yes, I know that minority-led series get axed from time to time, but so do non-minority titles. If it seems like it happens more frequently to minority-oriented titles it's because the support wasn't there from minorities themselves who talk of supporting each other.

So when Ms. Marvel goes to a seventh printing, or Silk and female Thor debut in the top 10, or Princess Leia and Spider-Gwen top Spider-Man and Batman do you just choose to selectively ignore it or are you just choosing to make this up as you go along?

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...5/2015-03.html

Likewise, we've got the all-female X-Book and Miles Morales outselling icons like the Hulk, the Punisher, and Cyclops.

Again, does this mean "white male" titles don't sell or is it about individual books and not "minority" status?

After all, the Hulk, the Punisher and Cyclops have all been featured in major -- often top-grossing -- motion pictures as well as numerous cartoon series, and have been around for decades, so how are they being outsold by characters who -- at most -- get advertised in a few trade magazines and the occasional 5-10 minute television interview session?

This is what I mean by "double-standard" -- you can't make the argument that "minority" characters don't sell and that they are over-promoted and then turn a blind eye when "non-minority" characters get even more promotion and still somehow sell less books.

[Marvel_Is]

So when Ms. Marvel goes to a seventh printing, or Silk, Spider-Gwen and female Thor debut in the top 10, or Princess Leia tops Spider-Man and Batman do you just choose to selectively ignore it or are you really just choosing to make this up as you go along?

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...5/2015-03.html

Cool. Minorities are having top-selling titles now. Why still the complaints? Like I've stated earlier, minorities tend to make arbitrary complaints.

I'm not sure why you directed this at me because I'm not the one who doesn't believe that minority-led comics all have a chance to make it with proper support. This post needs to be directed towards them.

[skyvolt2000]

Marvel is becoming more diverse because it sates individuals clamoring for such a thing. You think they do it because they just love minorities?

How about they are DOING it because they see PROFIT.

How about they figured out if WE don't do it..... SOMEONE ELSE WILL-like you want them to.

Understand something when you LET someone else do something-you end up playing catch up. You never EVER want to play catch up.

Lastly, this is a medium where historically it's been about characters who solve problems with their fists - which I like! But, a lot of the diversity die-hards are essentially ruining the medium by wanting their chosen minority to be treated with kids gloves. That weakens the product by allowing individuals who don't respect the genre to dictate what should or should not happen to these characters.

So what do you call it when fans got McDuffie removed from Justice League because the EDITORS had 4 blacks in the book?

Or the fans who scream "I can't enjoy (blank) because a minority is in a book that I am not READING."

Or the MULTIPLE thread complaining about Falcon as Captain America? Miles Morales? Sam Alexander? Lady Thor? Ms Marvel?

Or the TROLLING of Black Panther's Appreciation Thread?

Or the fans who IGNORE the failed solo run of a white character but will constantly bring it up with Static or Blade?

Or the hate Finn has gotten and all we have seen of him is in a Star Wars Trailer.

Or the fans that CHEER when a minority is killed off?

So who is dictating what?

[aja_christopher]

Cool. Minorities are having top-selling titles now. Why still the complaints? Like I've stated earlier, minorities tend to make arbitrary complaints.

I'm a "minority" and I don't see where my complaints are "arbitrary".

In fact, they seem dead on, especially since I can back them up with facts.

Absolutely agree with him. I've been saying this for the longest. Publishers like Marvel only do the increased diversity thing because there are people who will spend their money on products featuring that alone. As a whole, they don't care about minority issues - it's not their job. Most of their success comes from characters who just happen to be White!

Minority properties just don't have the same supporters. Enthusiasm is nice, but it don't pay those bills.

That's your quote, correct?

I was simply showing you how those "minority properties" do pay those bills.

If you now understand what I'm saying, then I guess we've resolved said issue.

[Marvell2100]

Marvel is becoming more diverse because it sates individuals clamoring for such a thing. You think they do it because they just love minorities?

Do you think they publish straight white males comics because they're homophobic? Or maybe they have a thing for straight white males?

What Marvel loves is money and right now, diversity is the cash cow.

[Marvell2100]

I fail to see where you're getting this "entitlement" vibe from especially as the points that Marvell2100 brought up in his post are varifiably based on what's beeen published in the 616 MU to date.

The Marvel Universe has comprised of a wide range of characters of all backgrounds for as long as I can remember but for some unfathomable reason, Marvel have done a piss poor job of utilizing all of their properties across the board especially in relation to the allocation of solid creative teams and strong story arcs that open up all of the MU to as diverse a readership as possible without sacrificing overall quality and IP integrity.

To me there's no such thing as majority/minority characters.

Merely publishers unwilling to tell tales featuring strong characters regardless of ethinicity, gender or orientation.

BCB my dude.

[Marvel_Is]

How about they are DOING it because they see PROFIT.

How about they figured out if WE don't do it..... SOMEONE ELSE WILL-like you want them to.

Understand something when you LET someone else do something-you end up playing catch up. You never EVER want to play catch up.

You're putting way too much emphasis on the minority dollar. They're as fickle as anyone (as evidenced by this thread).

I'll believe it when I see Marvel's Icon's sidelined for minority characters who can routinely pull their numbers for generations without piggybacking off of these legacies. Can that be done, skyvolt2000?

So what do you call it when fans got McDuffie removed from Justice League because the EDITORS had 4 blacks in the book?

I call that a misfortune, but typical of how Big the Big Two companies are run. I'm not surprised and neither should any minority in particular.

Or the fans who scream "I can't enjoy (blank) because a minority is in a book that I am not READING."

Their money is just as good as yours, is it not?

Or the MULTIPLE thread complaining about Falcon as Captain America? Miles Morales? Sam Alexander? Lady Thor? Ms Marvel?

I feel their pain. Especially, when it's coming from a non-bigoted place. Bigotry isn't the only reason why people complain about these, believe it or not.

Or the TROLLING of Black Panther's Appreciation Thread?

That is going too far. Appreciation threads are supposed to be a haven away from most negativity. These "troll" are unequivocally WRONG.

Or the fans who IGNORE the failed solo run of a white character but will constantly bring it up with Static or Blade?

Honestly, minorities bring that upon themselves sometimes. We all know that White characters are going to return again and again, so there's no need to address that much. Minorities are the ones who label and establish these books as failing due to the characters being minorities. Those fans are just responding in kind.

Or the hate Finn has gotten and all we have seen of him is in a Star Wars Trailer.

Is this really all that surprising though?

Or the fans that CHEER when a minority is killed off?

I don't know why I laughed at this. But, I think it's because minority fans get so worked up about C and D-list (and lower) characters that are from a company whose main draw are White Icons and creators.

So who is dictating what?

Certainly not minorities. But, there are reasonable answers to this, but people keep banging their heads on the wrong doors IMO.

[Marvel_Is]

I'm a "minority" and I don't see where my complaints are "arbitrary".

In fact, they seem dead on, especially since I can back them up with facts.



That's your quote, correct?

I was simply showing you how those "minority properties" do pay those bills.

If you now understand what I'm saying, then I guess we've resolved said issue.

We are both seeing what we believe we are seeing and I believe you and I are done here. Peace.