Calculations in Marvel's Diversity

[aja_christopher]

There's a better way to represent people then changing established characters.

Such as?

You know, I keep seeing this repeated as if it makes it true. And as I've pointed out repeatedly, I'd like for it to be true, but it just hasn't been as effective as introducing "legacy" characters that build on the myth of an already established character.

Yes, we can point out exceptions to the rule (such as Spawn) but Spawn is an exception -- having an artist like Todd MacFarlane behind it -- and not the rule. The rhetoric about "original" or "existing" vs "legacy" is all well and good, but at the end of the day it's all about business and profits for Marvel. I'm certain that as much as Marvel would love to have a "Spawn" in it's gallery, there's no reason they wouldn't be just as happy with "Ms. Marvel" generating similar profit and interest, not to mention winning awards.

For those of you who think otherwise, practice what you preach and create an "original" character and see if you can prove what you are saying is true -- and note: I say that as someone who is attempting to do exactly that with the comics you see in my links below.

Honestly, I give Marvel (Comics) credit for making the kinds of moves it has been making lately -- it now has three of the top grossing films in history with majority all-white male leads, yet they are STILL trying to promote characters like Kamala Khan, Miles Morales, Gwen Stacy, Squirrel Girl, Sam Wilson, "female" Thor, Black Widow, Elektra, She-Hulk, Storm, etc, etc in their comic books...

...rather than simply milking (white male) box-office cash cows like Cap, Iron Man, and Thor to the point of making Wolverine look like a Stan-Lee cameo player, which is what a lot of businesses would do in the same circumstances (Batman and Superman, for example).

Let's try to look at this from a realistic perspective -- legacy characters sell, many fans want more diversity, and white male characters are currently killing at the box-office, so Marvel is trying to find a happy medium between all of the above, which I personally respect. There's an old saying about trying to please all of the people all of the time, and I think that certainly applies here when discussing the issue of "diversity" in comic books.

They have promised us a Black Panther and Captain Marvel movie in the near future along with a Luke Cage and a Jessica Jones series, and given their dedication to widening diversity in their comic books, I personally feel that they will eventually deliver on both those films and possibly films and/or TV series starring characters such as Kamala and Miles and Gwen as well.

So let's not keep arguing and fighting over the same thing over and over again, when as many here have pointed out, many of the new "legacy" characters are doing well while the original "legacy" characters are still around and in many ways are more popular than ever worldwide.

There's plenty of room for ALL of these types of characters (Tony Starks and Carol Danvers and Kamala Khans) in the Marvel Universe and we are all more than welcome to buy the comics that we like and not to buy those comics that we don't. At the end of the day, the market will decide but at least we now have the option.

Anyway, time for me to get back to practicing what I preach, and working on my own original "minority-led" comics, books, and film concepts, and here's hoping that many of you out there will do the same.

[t hedge coke]

I don't have anything against Daken, but calling him Dark Wolverine was kind of silly as the original wasn't exactly sunshine and lollipops. Also, Daken comes across more to me like some punk kid than Logan's twisted mirror image.

Nobody actually called him that. The book was called that because that was the title of all those Osborn-supported "hero" books. Dark Wolverine. Dark Avengers. Dark Hawkeye. Dark Darkhawk Hawk.

[The Negative Zone]

Such as?

.

For starters adding more minority characters to the cartoons, movies, and games. 2nd add some minority characters to popular books. Give some more solo leads. It's not that hard, much smoother than replacing a character, or completely changing a character.

[aja_christopher]

For starters adding more minority characters to the cartoons, movies, and games. 2nd add some minority characters to popular books. Give some more solo leads.

Again -- they can do all of the above and they are doing so as we speak.



Why is that so hard to understand?

This is not the first time characters have been "replaced", nor will it be the last, so arguing that point is like asking the sun not to shine -- it's just not going to happen so long as comic books exist as a medium.

[The Negative Zone]

Again -- they can do all of the above and they are doing so as we speak.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Then there's no need to change established characters.

[Double 0]

Again -- they can do all of the above and they are doing so as we speak.

Why is that so hard to understand?

This is not the first time characters have been "replaced", nor will it be the last, so arguing that point is like asking the sun not to shine -- it's just not going to happen so long as comic books exists as a medium.

You forgot that people complain about all of those too. Or when they don't sell as well, they parrot the "see minorities don't buy comics" garbage.

[PiercedMonk]

Then there's no need to change established characters.

You're assuming that the changes are solely to push some sort of agenda.

Characters change and grow over time. That's a simple aspect of story telling. If the creators want to explore new story possibilities facilitated by a change to an existing character, than that contributes to the overall tapestry being put together by Marvel's creative minds.

Characters leave team, join teams, change their costumes, change their powers, pass on legacies, fight new villains, start new relationships...change is a necessity.

All this strum and drang over the recent changes is bizarre, because it seems to be typified by this notion that diversity is somehow a bad thing.

[aja_christopher]

You forgot that people complain about all of those too. Or when they don't sell as well, they parrot the "see minorities don't buy comics" garbage.

I didn't forget -- I just get tired of arguing the same things over and over again, even if it is for new eyes. We can fight about these things for days, but in the end Marvel is doing -- what I think -- is a good job of trying to give both old and new fans something to enjoy in their books.

The irony is that I agree with the people who are saying we need more "existing" (Black Widow, Elektra, Storm) and "non-legacy" (Runaways, NYX, Squirrel Girl) minority-led books, but I likewise don't have any problems with Marvel going with what seems to work best (Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Avengers movies and Ms. Marvel, Silk, and Spider-Gwen comics).

Which is why I ultimately said I think you should buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like, and create something new if that's what you want to see.

[aja_christopher]

Then there's no need to change established characters.

There was no need to change Thor into a frog, but it happened.

There was no need to break Batman's back, but it happened.

There was no need to "trap" Peter Parker in his own body, but it happened.

Etc, etc, etc.

If uselessly railing against a common theme in comic books is what excites you then have at it, but let's not pretend this is something new to the medium or that it will change any time soon based on your opinion.

[Marvell2100]

Then there's no need to change established characters.

Sure there is, it happens all the time. That's one of the many ways they create drama, new directions and infuse new blood into the comics.

Here's a list of character changes:

Batman -Azrael, Dick Grayson, Jim Gordon
Superman -Steel, Eradicator
Wonder Woman -Artemiz
Green Lantern -Kyle Raynor
Green Arrow -Connor Hawke
Flash -Wally West
Blue Beetle -Jaime Reyes
Firestorm -Jason Rousch
Captain America -John Walker, Bucky, Sam WIlson
Iron Man -James Rhodes
Thor -Red Norville, Eric Masterson, female Thor
Spider-Man -Clones, Otto, Miles Morales
Ghost Rider -Danny Ketch, Alejandra, Robbie Reyes
Deathlok -Michael Collins, Jack Truman, Larry Young
Nova -Sam Alexander
Ant-Man -Scott Lang, Eric O'Grady
Yellow Jacket -Rita Demara

Again, this is nothing new. It happens all the time. It's just in this instances, more minority characters are filling the roles.

I'd like to know how many readers who are opposed to the character changes are actually buying minority lead titles. The subject is always raised about minority readers supporting minority characters. I'm just curious about the number of non-minority readers who are supporting minority titles.

[Venomous Mask]

Nobody actually called him that. The book was called that because that was the title of all those Osborn-supported "hero" books. Dark Wolverine. Dark Avengers. Dark Hawkeye. Dark Darkhawk Hawk.

Ok, I forgot about that. There was also Sinister Spider-Man which was simply the Gargan Venom.

[Overhazard]

I didn't forget -- I just get tired of arguing the same things over and over again, even if it is for new eyes. We can fight about these things for days, but in the end Marvel is doing -- what I think -- is a good job of trying to give both old and new fans something to enjoy in their books.

The irony is that I agree with the people who are saying we need more "existing" (Black Widow, Elektra, Storm) and "non-legacy" (Runaways, NYX, Squirrel Girl) minority-led books, but I likewise don't have any problems with Marvel going with what seems to work best (Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Avengers movies and Ms. Marvel, Silk, and Spider-Gwen comics).

Which is why I ultimately said I think you should buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like, and create something new if that's what you want to see.

Do you think that some people buy books they don't like just so they can complain about them, or they're creatures of habit and want to collect every issue? I think some fans do. People hate-watch TV shows, so hate-reading comic books isn't that farfetched. I think a lot of people just want comics to be the way they were when they were kids. I get it, nostalgia is a cruel, seductive mistress, but things need to change.

[Kieran_Frost]

Though to be fair? It is in someway brand identity so you could totally have Daken be guy. His solo run was god-awful, it was him being constantly beat on and made to look stupid, but in Dark Avengers he was great, writing undid that guy. I was actually buying him for a while but the adventures were too poor.. However in light of everything else though they're doing though? It'd be in really bad taste, and obvious and panderific.

Ugh? Did you read those two comics? He did NOTHING in Dark Avengers. Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind because he had a solo series, but he really did nothing and contributed nothing. Have you read Dark Wolverine? He out manipulates Moonstone, plays the FF and the Dark Avengers against each other; while still making Johnny Storm adore him. He threw goddesses out of their temple as if they were nothing. "Made to look stupid"? Errr, no. You clearly didn't read Liu&Way's run; unless you count successfully tricking Mr Fantastic and Osborn (two incredibly smart people) as the work of an idiot.

Being honest here, teenage superheroes are better off with the Avengers than the X-Men,most X-Kids either become wallpaper or cannon fodder.

To my knowledge the last time we saw kids became cannon fodder was Avengers Arena

[Overhazard]

To my knowledge the last time we saw kids became cannon fodder was Avengers Arena

Yeah, but it's still more of a tradition with the X-Men, bunch of new mutants show up at the school, someone's getting killed, or put in a coma, or mind controlled, or squished by a sentinel, or completely forgotten about, if they're lucky.

[Myetche]

Yeah, but it's still more of a tradition with the X-Men, bunch of new mutants show up at the school, someone's getting killed, or put in a coma, or mind controlled, or squished by a sentinel, or completely forgotten about, if they're lucky.

Or thrown on the bus... seconds before it gets blown up in a missile strike.