Calculations in Marvel's Diversity

[Myetche]

If you don't want Marvel to change established character into minority, then support original 'minority' book (Silk, Spider-Gwen, etc etc).

Nothing original about those two, as both are derived from Spider-Man.

[Melab]

Writers just can't seem to freakin' write anymore. They have to ponder "Hey, what big issue should I tackle next?". I don't know, how about your inability to just do it.

[aja_christopher]

Please pardon my language. Sorry if this seem harsh.

What happened to new minority book that ain't a legacy? Cancelled. Unless s/he a "spin-off" or related to male superhero then they don't sell. Maybe if more fans would buy more book staring original minority lead then it could work. There are fans that like "Gender/race/sexual orientation didn't matter to me as long as they're interesting!" and yet only buy Batman, Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider-Man and other book featuring straight white male. Idk. It seem that people who want diversity is the one that support them. The rest? Too busy worshipping Batman maybe.

If you don't want Marvel to change established character into minority, then support original 'minority' book (Silk, Spider-Gwen, etc etc). I swear some of them are good book with high quality art and writing. Soon DC is gonna launch Midnighter, a solo book featuring gay male and a ton solo featuring female/POC lead. Most of them are original character that ain't a legacy or racebending. Support that book will you. Prove it to DC and Marvel that you like original minority.

There's a double standard at work in that kind of logic.

Cyclops, Gambit, Moon Knight, etc -- all relatively popular (white male) "original" characters who have problems supporting a solo.

As I like to keep pointing out -- it's not so much "race" (War Machine, Ghost Rider, Batwing) or "gender" (Elektra, She-Hulk, Katana) that is at issue here, it's really about both promotion and quality.

From what I understand, Elektra and She-Hulk were great books, but Ms. Marvel got the promotion and the right creative team and consequently it got the sales as well: quality promotion plus a quality creative team (Wilson and Alphona) led to the perfect storm.

Put Pichelli, Opena, or Immonen on a book and you've already won half the battle -- but if the writing/art is bad and/or people don't know the book exists, then the sales will reflect that fact... "minority" book or otherwise.

[SolarRadical]

Again -- you are not being objective: pointing out "Black Fury" while ignoring everything else I mentioned does not qualify as "for the most part".

With regards to storytelling -- are you actually reading the stories involving "minorities" that you are you are complaining about? Certainly you can't be doing so with Iceman because there has only been one issue so far -- and I seriously doubt that you are following all of the other "minority" books that you are complaining about (Ms. Marvel, Silk, Thor, Ultimate Spider Man, etc) so your complaints are really about not liking the "PC brigade" more than not liking the stories themselves.

The fact that I even have to tell you that Iceman hasn't been "replaced" by anything -- gimmick or otherwise -- speaks volumes about the relative futility of even having this dialogue with you. If you want to continue to read about "straight" Bobby Drake, or "white" Peter Parker, or "non-Muslim" Carol Danvers, no one is stopping you from doing so. Those books are still out there, ready and waiting for your perusal.

Why you find it problematic that some of us (many of us, judging from the success of books like Ms. Marvel and Silk) have and choose to enjoy other options is beyond me... unless this is more about you not wanting to see those "diverse" options being available than it is about you caring about "storytelling" as you claim.

At the end of the day, no one is forcing you to read these "diverse" books... but you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least keep an open mind about them. Most of the reviews have been pretty good thus far and the sales reflect this.

Your war on the "PC brigade" is hurting you more than it is anyone else, especially given the fact that things are only going to get even more "diverse" as time goes on...

I don't care how diverse marvel want to make there product I care about quality and it's been clear from this whole genre that 2 things everything returns to status quo or it disappears, and that's why it's a gimmick a quick boost in sales before it vanishes to be picked up once in a blue moon with the same repeating story, But I'm not surprised cape readers are used to such low standards. And you are incorrect I do not like the PC brigade when they puts any garbage on the pedestal that features a minority and I do believe it a disservices when the bear minimum of effort is being used. And I say that as a minority myself and these continuously bad first impressions make me less inclined to pick up their other stuff because I know they're going to mess it sooner or later for the next gimmick.

the Comic book industry needs more prominent genre before it so it can actually take a step forward on important content and not these silly men in tights.

[t hedge coke]

Writers just can't seem to freakin' write anymore. They have to ponder "Hey, what big issue should I tackle next?". I don't know, how about your inability to just do it.

Yes, because writers writing about issues that feel relevant to them is very new, and just to cover up their inability to write things wherein no issues are ever evoked or explored.

[Tiamatty]

At any given time in Marvel comics, each month there are several books that overlap with the same hero (Cap, Wolverine, Spidey, etc). So much so that it creates awful and annoying continuity problems. My thinking has always been that each character should regularly appear in no more than one monthly book. Bam. There's your room for new characters, and the characters that have survived for decades because people like them how they are can remain that way.

I mean really, how hard of a compromise was that? Even if we cut some of those down to no more than 2 monthly books, that frees up a ton of room. It's not that outside-the-box of a plan, and it would allow everyone a chance to get what they want. Maybe it's not a perfect idea, but, it's one born from trying to make the most people happy. Which is where I think the philosophy should be.

But, honestly, judging by some people's tone, I don't get the sense that they care at all about trying to make everyone happy. I think, as I said up front, they see this all as a good vs. evil battle. And if that's where your head is at, that somehow now we have to take turns being happy and someone's turn is justifiably over, then, there's not really going to be any reasoning with that. I hope I'm wrong, but, I'm not hearing it from some people and this certainly wouldn't be the first time. =\

There's a big problem with limiting the number of books a character appears in: The audience doesn't want that. Wolverine was always in so many books because readers wanted him in so many books. Same with the other characters who are in multiple titles. People don't want to read about Patriot, they want to read about Captain America. They don't want to read about Amadeus Cho, they want to read about Iron Man. They don't want to read about Miss America, they want to read about the Hulk. They don't want to read about Kate Bishop, they want to read about Clint Barton. They want all the characters they've been reading about for decades already.

So Marvel gives them what they want. They give them Captain America in multiple titles, because people read those titles.

As for "taking turns being happy," I would like to point out that straight white men still make up a significant majority of the characters used. If we can't be happy with that, then maybe there's something wrong with us and we should do some deep introspection on that.

[7thangel]

The problem is, diversity on its own is not really controversial these days. Yes, it's as emotionally charged as ever. But, in general, people are welcoming and eager to celebrate those who have different backgrounds than their own. People generally want others to not have to suffer in silence or be judged unfairly for who they are. People generally want others to be able to pick up a given work of media art and see themselves reflected back in some way if that's what it takes to get them to relate to that art. Because of this acceptance, diversity on its own is not going to create the kind of "excitement" that the one's selling want to generate from the one's buying. Sure, introducing new characters of diverse backgrounds would increase sales among the reflected groups, but it's not going to generate the loudest buzz possible in the 2000-teens.

this idea that most people are open to diversity and have no problems with it, is a fallacy.

[JoeWithoutFear]

this idea that most people are open to diversity and have no problems with it, is a fallacy.

OK, well, that's your life experience and I respect that, but, I'm afraid mine has been quite different. So, unless one of us has some statistics, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Cool -- I'm glad we can have a respectful dialogue on this and I appreciate you opening it up for discussion.

I genuinely try my best for that. I know I don't succeed every time, but, that is my aim. Thanks for reciprocating. As for Triage, I've just always loved healer characters. In a world where people are hitting each other so much, it just makes sense to have healers around, but there are so few.

... America is changing, in just 35 more years whites will be a minority, and already the changes are starting to be reflected within the media. So those that are upset now are in for a rude awakening in the future.

You hear how this sounds, right? How this doesn't sound very much like you're interested in peaceful coexistence and unity but rather more interested in one side gaining some kind of upper hand.

What happened to new minority book that ain't a legacy? Cancelled. Unless s/he a "spin-off" or related to male superhero then they don't sell. Maybe if more fans would buy more book staring original minority lead then it could work. There are fans that like "Gender/race/sexual orientation didn't matter to me as long as they're interesting!" and yet only buy Batman, Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider-Man and other book featuring straight white male. Idk. It seem that people who want diversity is the one that support them. The rest? Too busy worshipping Batman maybe.

If you don't want Marvel to change established character into minority, then support original 'minority' book (Silk, Spider-Gwen, etc etc). I swear some of them are good book with high quality art and writing. Soon DC is gonna launch Midnighter, a solo book featuring gay male and a ton solo featuring female/POC lead. Most of them are original character that ain't a legacy or racebending. Support that book will you. Prove it to DC and Marvel that you like original minority.

There's a big problem with limiting the number of books a character appears in: The audience doesn't want that. Wolverine was always in so many books because readers wanted him in so many books. Same with the other characters who are in multiple titles. People don't want to read about Patriot, they want to read about Captain America. They don't want to read about Amadeus Cho, they want to read about Iron Man. They don't want to read about Miss America, they want to read about the Hulk. They don't want to read about Kate Bishop, they want to read about Clint Barton. They want all the characters they've been reading about for decades already.

So Marvel gives them what they want. They give them Captain America in multiple titles, because people read those titles.

See, I feel like this is an important point you both make. On the one hand, we're told that huge amounts of fans are desperate for female and minority characters, if only they were given the chance to buy them. But, then sometimes you hear things like this which betray that notion. Which is it? I honestly don't know.

Additionally, people talk about comics being a business and so it's OK for them to pander if it gets sales up. But, at the same time then, are we OK with comics sticking with what sells when it means less diversity? I don't think. But, again, I think there's room for both. Lots of media companies do what they call "prestige" projects. Projects that they know won't make a bunch of money, but, they foster good will among their audience and that spills over to profits in a general sense. To me, this seems reasonable: use your profits from all the large-appeal comics to fund books with more niche appeal. Again, win-win, right? I don't see the downside of this.

There's a double standard at work in that kind of logic.

Cyclops, Gambit, Moon Knight, etc -- all relatively popular (white male) "original" characters who have problems supporting a solo.

As I like to keep pointing out -- it's not so much "race" (War Machine, Ghost Rider, Batwing) or "gender" (Elektra, She-Hulk, Katana) that is at issue here, it's really about both promotion and quality.

From what I understand, Elektra and She-Hulk were great books, but Ms. Marvel got the promotion and the right creative team and consequently it got the sales as well: quality promotion plus a quality creative team (Wilson and Alphona) led to the perfect storm.

Put Pichelli, Opena, or Immonen on a book and you've already won half the battle -- but if the writing/art is bad and/or people don't know the book exists, then the sales will reflect that fact... "minority" book or otherwise.

Now, see, this makes a ton of sense to me. I would have zero issue with people requesting better writers/quality/promotion for female+minority-centric books. I mean, seems fair to me. But, again, I'm talking about existing or original characters, not the "___ swapped" kind that I started this whole thread over. Hopefully that's not a deal breaker.

And really, there are SO many factors into what makes a book succeed. For instance, Cyclops is my favorite comic hero, and yet, I had zero interest in the Cyclops solo because it starred Tyke, a character that I think has been used completely incorrectly. ("I need to bring young Scott to the present to see what he becomes! ... ok, you can run off into space cuz it might make for a sweet father/son story." LAME! =P )

As for "taking turns being happy," I would like to point out that straight white men still make up a significant majority of the characters used. If we can't be happy with that, then maybe there's something wrong with us and we should do some deep introspection on that.

I was referring to one's ability to read and follow their favorite character. As I'm sure you are aware, (most) people don't read comics simply for the gender/race/sexual identity of the protagonist. So, it's not like us straight white dudes just go "oh, they killed off Peter Parker. No biggie! I'll get just as much out of reading Wolverine because he's exactly the same! A straight white male!" Just as I don't think Northstar is the panacea for all LGBT readers.

I mean, really, I'll try to say it in a different way because I must not be explaining it well... it's not the fact that these characters are no longer straight/white/male that is the issue. It would be just as off-putting if Marvel, I don't know, struck a deal with Walmart and suddenly Captain America was going to be wear Walmart colors and have a "W" on his shield. I dunno, this is a lame analogy but... it's late. Still, the point is not the social justice, it's the "social justice." It's the feeling of reading something that seems forced and disingenuous.

There's one more piece to that which I haven't even touched on yet, but, I'll save that for tomorrow.

Thanks for chatting, peeps. And thanks for keeping it mostly civil so far.

[HaveAtThee]

It's pretty simple. Shock value and controversy sell. The Big Two understand this and use it very well. I blame the readership 100% because they ultimately have a choice not to spend their money on something that displeases them. A lot of people were unhappy with many of these changes but I bet a good majority of them still bought the book out of some type of childish "fan loyalty" to the character. A bigger statement is made by choosing not to buy a book out of protest rather than whining about it incessantly on forums and blogs. It's like complaining about how putrid the food at Applebee's has become but still going to eat there.

Besides, Marvel and DC both know that writers wont be eager to create new characters for them because they automatically lose the rights to that character upon inception, so writers diversify their own income by focusing on creator-owned books. So the companies feel the next best thing is to take lesser known characters and rebranding them with the names of the A-list characters to achieve sales and perhaps entice new readership. I bet plenty of writers have tons of ideas on how to create, promote and enhance both existing characters and new ones, but are reluctant to introduce them under the Marvel or DC banner due to lack of creator ownership of the properties.

At the end of the day, though, millions of fans around the world are fans of Steve Rogers, Thor, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, etc. and will always identify them as defining their characters. Why is Captain America compelling? Because he is Steve Rogers. Same with Thor and all the other very famous characters. If nothing else, fans need to realize that nothing really ever changes in the superhero genre. Continuous storytelling and the evolution of characters died a long time ago so Steve Rogers and Thor are not going anywhere anytime soon. If you don't like other characters replacing them, no one's forcing you to read the books.

[yet another]

Let's start with an assumption that I see as a given: diversity in comics is not a zero-sum equation. You don't have to remove heterosexual, white, male heroes to increase the number or prominence of female and minority heroes.

I don't think this is a given.

There are probably several limits on how many characters can appear in the monthly comics from Marvel. Especially for the prominent characters.

[Marvell2100]

But, honestly, judging by some people's tone, I don't get the sense that they care at all about trying to make everyone happy. I think, as I said up front, they see this all as a good vs. evil battle. And if that's where your head is at, that somehow now we have to take turns being happy and someone's turn is justifiably over, then, there's not really going to be any reasoning with that. I hope I'm wrong, but, I'm not hearing it from some people and this certainly wouldn't be the first time. =\

What is the good and what is the evil in this though? Marvel is using an established superhero identity to give opportunities for minority representation. The original characters are still around. I can see where fans of the original characters can be upset sure. We went through a similar experience with Black Panther with a Black female(his sister) taking over his role. Many people where upset about this but we got a new interesting character in Shuri which expanded the Black Panther mythos.

[leo619]

You hear how this sounds, right? How this doesn't sound very much like you're interested in peaceful coexistence and unity but rather more interested in one side gaining some kind of upper hand.

Peaceful coexistence with who? Let's be clear, the entire goal of diversity is diversity for all, that includes white characters. From a personal standpoint, I do not support any team that's monoethnic in comics, that includes all black, all white, all female, or what have you. That's just me personally so to those readers who are willing to accept changes to characters, have no qualms or issue with diversity, or even more so, understand the difficult plight that's associated with minority readers and minority characters, we can most definitely have peaceful coexistence. Whom I have absolutely no interest in "coexistence" with, are those that continue to shout out PC, pandering, quota, affirmative action, and any other bigoted jargon usually associated when it comes to minority characters. I can't wait for them to leave the comic book demographic, than we actually could make some serious progress when it comes to diversity and comics.

[aja_christopher]

this idea that most people are open to diversity and have no problems with it, is a fallacy.

Actually, that very statement is a fallacy: there is no proof that most people are not open to diversity. Quite the contrary, Ms. Marvel is a comic book that features a diverse cast, and it is one of Marvel's top sellers. Likewise, films like The Fast and the Furious and Transformers and The Hunger Games and Big Hero Six are diverse, and make billions of dollars at the box office.

(A fallacy is the use of poor, or invalid, reasoning for the construction of an argument. It is also used to refer to an argument which appears to be correct but is not.)

I would have zero issue with people requesting better writers/quality/promotion for female+minority-centric books. I mean, seems fair to me. But, again, I'm talking about existing or original characters, not the "___ swapped" kind that I started this whole thread over. Hopefully that's not a deal breaker.

I think a lot of people here would love that -- again, I'd love it they ran with a Karolina Dean or a Nico Minoru or a Miss America series but I doubt that it would sell as much as a Ms. Marvel/Thor/Captain America series simply because of name recognition.

If Miss America took up the mantle of Captain America however, or Karolina gained the power of the Phoenix, or Nico took over the title of Doctor Strange, then you might see a lot more interest in said characters.

Likewise, even though The Runaways was a very diverse series and NYX was a very diverse series and Generation X was a very diverse series -- all of which had a lot of talent on their initial creative teams (Brian K. Vaughan, Adrian Alphona, Joe Queseda, Joshua Middleton, Scott Lobdell, Chris Bachalo) and sold relatively well in their time, where are those characters now for the most part?

The only one that really "stuck" was X-23 -- a Wolverine clone -- though it could likewise be argued that characters like Synch, Nico, Monet (and Triage, Cipher, Monet, Frenzy, Bishop, Victor La Mancha, Karima Shapandar, etc) could be very successful, if they were given the right creative team and promotion and marketing, but given the fact that Marvel has given us titles like Storm, Black Widow, The Mighty Avengers, (all-female) X-Men and The All-New Ultimates recently, it's hard to argue that they aren't at least making the effort.

Ideals are great for the most part but Marvel has to deal with business realities. If Ms. Marvel puts up record numbers while Elektra flops (despite being a good title) then they have to go with what works, and I can't blame them for that.

I think we have a happy medium in books like Silk, Spider-Gwen, All-New Avengers, Princess Leia, Ultimate Spiderman, etc -- derivative of an original concept, but diverse in nature and different enough from their predecessors to explore new stories and ideas from an original perspective.

[t hedge coke]

The only people who seem shocked by Spider-Gwen or Ms Marvel or Iceman being outed are hardcore Marvel fans. I really doubt the announcement of Ms Marvel really caused distress or upset too many other places. Maybe some Fox News midday panel show.

And, Captain America being replaced... again? Yes, there's a percentage of the general population who can believe it's forever or never been done before, but when fans act like it's this new, evil thing... c'mon. Steve gets replaced as Cap or walks from being Cap at least once ever ten years. I don't know if it's worse if the same fans complaining now, complained when Bucky took over, or just this time, but either way, let's not pretend it's some new hipster commercial thing and not just Standard Cap Story #3, right up there with "killing" Steve or having him question if he's in step enough with "modern" America.

[Silvermoth]

I'm so disappointed that comic books have become increasingly diverse particularly in the last 15 years or so and people are still terrified of change.

There will never again be a time when only straight white guys love comics. It's time to get over it