The Minority Report! Diversity In The MU.

[skyvolt2000]

Instead of posting judgmental comments and gifs you could actually refute points?

Black comic reading market might not be as profitable due to in part the lack of that particular demographics actually reading their books.

Do you have any idea how offensive this sounds? Lets NOT assume only blacks read black comics. That is like saying only raccoon read Rocket Raccoon or Predators read the Predator books.

Oh and let me explain to you about why a certain demographic might not have interest in said black lead books.

Show me where comic book stores are in black neighborhoods.
Show me the Barnes & Nobles and other book stores in the black community.

Oh that's right they don't exist in the black community.

Go OUTSIDE the black community? Yes lets do that and ask the same questions-

Show me the comic book store that actually carries black lead books
Show me the book store that carries the trades

OH that's right once the FEW copies that they order run out there is NO REORDERING. Or a store refuses to fell the title.

That is IF that book was there-I have only see two black trades at Barnes & Nobles in the ENTIRE state (Static & Miles's first trade both SOLD OUT).

Lets go to the schools where I work. We can't order black lead trades from our book distributors. Yet we can order various straight white male books that NO child/teen reads.

So if blacks aren't getting access to these books whose buying them then? That's right the other races who like them.

So if you have some solid reasoning behind this outside of the same tired lines that "marvel doesn't want/like/push/ect black characters" please chime in.

CHIME

Because there is always ALWAYS a complaint fess when someone tries to do anything with certain black male characters.

Every little detail about a black male character is ripped and trashed and belittled. It doesn't matter if he had three movies (Blade), successful tv show (Static), a run that actually sales (Miles, BP, John Stewart). folks active campaigning for the role (John Stewart/Miles Morales), get a mini series (Nick Fury Jr) or comes out as gay (Prodigy).

SOMEONE will complain and at times Marvel & DC panders to those complainers. Yet everyone else from Ms Marvel, Hawkeye, Groot, zombies, Squirrel Girl & Antman can get whatever they want and despite complaints still get to prove themselves.

And when a black male character gets success-eventually SOMEONE is going to do whatever it takes to ruin it. See Black Panther. See John Stewart. See Static.

Take Blade and his films-success but until BP 2018-no black male hero sniffed a film. We heard excuses like dumb luck or weak competition.

And when a black male fails-it's used against ALL black male characters. A failed Ms Marvel comic won't stop more female lead ones. A failed Miles book would have stopped Deathlok's solo.

Chime

Maybe when we start understanding why black male lead books struggle-maybe we can address it.But if we are going to blame blacks for everything-we are defeating the entire conversation.

[CSTowle]

The first big (and I'd say incorrect) assumption is that black male characters only appeal to black males. I grew up loving the Black Panther and I'm white as a ghost. I know many Luke Cage fans, I know no black fans of his. The only black comic fan I know IRL is my cousin and he likes Batman, Ghost Rider, the Punisher, and Conan. I couldn't get him to read Priest's Panther run.

Pixie took off because visually speaking she's a fairy and there are tons of people who go ape-s##t over fairies. It's an interesting look. Prodigy's powers aren't the sort of thing that appeal to most people (absorbing the skills and abilities of others). I thought it was cool, but I like characters like that. Forge, Taskmaster, etc. That, and he was the Cyclops, stick-up-his-butt no-nonsense type. They changed that up a bit when he teamed up with the Young Avengers squad, and that's helped him become more popular (as the change in Cyclops has helped his popularity).

[skyvolt2000]

That's not the tone I'm trying convey at all.

Why is that? Prodigy had solid characterization, he had interesting power set, he was very versatile and the list goes on. Could the reason in part be that the readers and the Black comic readers in particular did not rally behind this character when the opportunity was there? Could it be that our voices were not loud enough or was it do to there not being enough representation of that demographic?

Edit: I will aslo note that in saying all of the above marvel does seem to have shifted focus on it Black characters it does have to attempt to make them more popular. As opposed to working with "newer" characters that fans don't seem to be supporting. Black Panthers role in NA, Falcons current status, Storm leading multiple x-titles and staring in her own solo (even if does appear to be short lived ) and so on.

Okay what did Prodigy do in the X-book after New X-Men got axed? Versus what Pixie did? I saw Pixie not Prodigy in the X-Men free comic book day book. She got an active role and he became background fodder.

Once again black readers are not the only readers for black characters. Realize there is NOTHING as a black readers I can do to get Marvel to use black characters more.

I can buy all the black lead books, merchandise and so on and it will NEVER be enough in the eyes of those in charge.

[Trident]

Do you have any idea how offensive this sounds? Lets NOT assume only blacks read black comics. That is like saying only raccoon read Rocket Raccoon or Predators read the Predator books.

Oh and let me explain to you about why a certain demographic might not have interest in said black lead books.

Show me where comic book stores are in black neighborhoods.
Show me the Barnes & Nobles and other book stores in the black community.

Oh that's right they don't exist in the black community.

Go OUTSIDE the black community? Yes lets do that and ask the same questions-

Show me the comic book store that actually carries black lead books
Show me the book store that carries the trades

OH that's right once the FEW copies that they order run out there is NO REORDERING. Or a store refuses to fell the title.

That is IF that book was there-I have only see two black trades at Barnes & Nobles in the ENTIRE state (Static & Miles's first trade both SOLD OUT).

Lets go to the schools where I work. We can't order black lead trades from our book distributors. Yet we can order various straight white male books that NO child/teen reads.

So if blacks aren't getting access to these books whose buying them then? That's right the other races who like them.



CHIME

Because there is always ALWAYS a complaint fess when someone tries to do anything with certain black male characters.

Every little detail about a black male character is ripped and trashed and belittled. It doesn't matter if he had three movies (Blade), successful tv show (Static), a run that actually sales (Miles, BP, John Stewart). folks active campaigning for the role (John Stewart/Miles Morales), get a mini series (Nick Fury Jr) or comes out as gay (Prodigy).

SOMEONE will complain and at times Marvel & DC panders to those complainers. Yet everyone else from Ms Marvel, Hawkeye, Groot, zombies, Squirrel Girl & Antman can get whatever they want and despite complaints still get to prove themselves.

And when a black male character gets success-eventually SOMEONE is going to do whatever it takes to ruin it. See Black Panther. See John Stewart. See Static.

Take Blade and his films-success but until BP 2018-no black male hero sniffed a film. We heard excuses like dumb luck or weak competition.

And when a black male fails-it's used against ALL black male characters. A failed Ms Marvel comic won't stop more female lead ones. A failed Miles book would have stopped Deathlok's solo.

Chime

Maybe when we start understanding why black male lead books struggle-maybe we can address it.But if we are going to blame blacks for everything-we are defeating the entire conversation.

Most of what you said here is to broad to hit on and not really worth getting into for this discussion. You are also making several assumptions and contorting my points to make it as if I'm being negative or putting down a particular group.

The only real thing I will hit on is this:

Do you have any idea how offensive this sounds?

It's not meant to be offensive. It's a actual possibility and a decision that is made in certain business all the time. At the end of the day money will be the final deciding factor on any of the books on the stands. It's a large possibility that out of the 70 something years in marvel's publishing that certain demographics were not consuming their products at all and it's even more probable considering American history that other demographics outside of white males were very small. So at the end of the day what we get reflects that in some form.

Now don't mistake this as me saying other demographics should go without representation. All I'm saying is that for characters like Patriot, Bishop, Synch and so on to get more shine maybe the fan base in general and the ones they reflect should make more of an effort to demonstrate that we want more of them. Other characters that have been mentioned, Billy, Teddy, Kate, Cassie, Pixie and so forth aren't having the same problems as the three I listed and it seems that a key difference that those characters have over the black males characters was a vocal and active fan following.

[Trident]

Okay what did Prodigy do in the X-book after New X-Men got axed? Versus what Pixie did? I saw Pixie not Prodigy in the X-Men free comic book day book. She got an active role and he became background fodder.

Once again black readers are not the only readers for black characters. Realize there is NOTHING as a black readers I can do to get Marvel to use black characters more.

I can buy all the black lead books, merchandise and so on and it will NEVER be enough in the eyes of those in charge.

The bold is not what I'm saying or imply. I am simply noting that Pixie had gathered a fan base. A fan base that was largely female but still a following, Prodigy didn't until it was revealed that he was LGTB. Another minority group who is more and more active and visibly prevalent in the comic community.

I'm not even saying that my "position" is valid. I'm saying that it is merely possibility that seems like a likely case to the current conversation.

The first big (and I'd say incorrect) assumption is that black male characters only appeal to black males. I grew up loving the Black Panther and I'm white as a ghost.

This isn't a assumption I made or ever stated in my post. What I stated is that the lack of black male leads may be a reflection of the lack of support and/or representation in the black community. Sure white's, hispanics, and so on can love BP. But at the same time if I'm a big wig in a company that makes a large chunk of its money on wish fulfillment and I'm trying to maximize my bottom line what am I going to do with a large chunk of new characters I create? Probably, make the jump to wish fulfillment easier by having the characters reflect the people reading those titles. *shrug*

I know many Luke Cage fans, I know no black fans of his. The only black comic fan I know IRL is my cousin and he likes Batman, Ghost Rider, the Punisher, and Conan. I couldn't get him to read Priest's Panther run.

And this in some forms supports my reasoning. For whatever the reasons involved black characters may or may not be getting the support from it's audience and in particular the black audience that they may have been trying largely to reach. Marvel see's that scratches it's head and moves on to the next thing that will line it's pockets.

Pixie took off because visually speaking she's a fairy and there are tons of people who go ape-s##t over fairies. It's an interesting look. Prodigy's powers aren't the sort of thing that appeal to most people (absorbing the skills and abilities of others). I thought it was cool, but I like characters like that. Forge, Taskmaster, etc. That, and he was the Cyclops, stick-up-his-butt no-nonsense type. They changed that up a bit when he teamed up with the Young Avengers squad, and that's helped him become more popular (as the change in Cyclops has helped his popularity).

I really don't think this the case since DC is pretty much making most of it's cash on characters like Prodigy. I also disagree that the visual aspect of Pixie is what brought her to the forefront . There are several other characters that were in popular titles that have floated along the same lines as Pixie and they are no were to be found today.

[Jumpoff AKA JohnnyBlazed]

The first big (and I'd say incorrect) assumption is that black male characters only appeal to black males. I grew up loving the Black Panther and I'm white as a ghost. I know many Luke Cage fans, I know no black fans of his. The only black comic fan I know IRL is my cousin and he likes Batman, Ghost Rider, the Punisher, and Conan. I couldn't get him to read Priest's Panther run.

Pixie took off because visually speaking she's a fairy and there are tons of people who go ape-s##t over fairies. It's an interesting look. Prodigy's powers aren't the sort of thing that appeal to most people (absorbing the skills and abilities of others). I thought it was cool, but I like characters like that. Forge, Taskmaster, etc. That, and he was the Cyclops, stick-up-his-butt no-nonsense type. They changed that up a bit when he teamed up with the Young Avengers squad, and that's helped him become more popular (as the change in Cyclops has helped his popularity).

I'm black and growing up I hated black heroes , those mutha**ks were corny as hell to me. Every time I read a book with black panther he was getting his ass kicked, Cage was cool but at the time he was framed for killing Iron Fist. Never cared for the art on deathlok(picked up the book because ghost rider was on the cover and didn't even know M. Collins was black) Storm looked like a grandma and bishop talked wayyy to "proper" ( again this was the 90's I was into Gangsta rap ect, so I wanted heroes who spoke like me) Rage and night thrasher I did like but they weren't Heavy hitters . So I gravitated towards Ghost rider who is to this day my favorite hero and I still get pissed anytime some one replaces him see Robbie , Female one, hell I was pissed when for no reason they went back to blaze during the Hammer lane.

[Kieran_Frost]

Ah okay thank you for that explanation. The change with Sera brought back an old issue I had with a friend that identified as male and, unfortunately, he was the sort that felt that the change via Sera wouldn't have been official, I think that's how he used to phrase the idea of magic sex changes. Any way, I get where the post was coming from, so thank you for that. I was a bit confused on aspects of it.



Okay so it's the mental state rather then how she physically changed her form that you were talking about. Thanks for the explanation of the post. As I said above, prior issues with an old friend of mine had me thinking like him and well I was sort of confused by the post. Again thanks for clearing that up.

Welcomes

[ExcelsiorPrime]

Instead of posting judgmental comments and gifs you could actually refute points?

What I am saying is not only a logical possibility but it could be an actual possibility that would explain a lot. Especially if you consider just a few years ago comics in general were mostly a nerdiest hobby. There are entirely new demographics of people slowly going to comic shops and collecting online today that never have or would before.

In the late 1990's (98-99) to the present these are the "new" Black characters at Marvel :

Miles Morales-Spiderman
Darwin
Oya
Anarchist
Angel II-Angel Salvadore
Manifold
Flint
Bedlam
Blue Marvel
Blur
Tamara Devoux-Captain Universe
Debrii
Gauntlet
Heather Hudson -Sasquatch(Exiles)
Josiah X
Kasper Cole
Power Man-Victor Alvarez
Nick Fury Jr.
Nightmask
Patriot
Prodigy-David Alleyne
Sun Girl
Tempest
Venus Dee Milo
Triage


Out of those "new" characters the only one that anyone would call sustainable popularity is Miles Morales and it's fairly obvious that a large chunk of his popularity stems from the fact that he is a spin-off character of Peter Parker who happens to be a fairly conservative white male.

Again, looking at the list, thinking about who also stared alongside those characters at their time of creation and were they are now, and why they are where they are now you have to factor in the possibility that the Black comic reading market might not be as profitable due to in part the lack of that particular demographics actually reading their books.

The bold represents the characters who you can find in a comic if you walked into a comic book store today. Now you tell me which one of those characters have a decent sized fan support? The answer is still Miles Morales by the way.

A considerable number of the new LGTB and female characters have gained solid fanbases or at the very least interest to keep them in publication. We have a brand new Inhuman in Flint with excellent back story and a powers that is interesting with huge potential to be a powerhouse in the future. But hardly no one is talking about him while Medusa(a very obscure character) and Inferno(newer character) are building fan bases of there own. Then there's Ms. Marvel who pretty much speaks for herself. So if you have some solid reasoning behind this outside of the same tired lines that "marvel doesn't want/like/push/ect black characters" please chime in.

Marvel is a BUSINESS if they know they can make money off a character they are not going to shelf them to the extant that some of the characters on the list I provided have been shelved. Heck, we are getting an entire event "that will change the Marvel Universe Forever" almost for the sol purpose of getting Miles Morales into the 616. Which further confirms many of my points.

Fact of the matter is the only black characters at marvel that have had any time of reoccurrence or support that other non-black characters have gotten are Storm and Black Panther and only recently(late 90's-present) Luke Cage and Falcon. But if we are being honest with ourselves we know that all three black males (BP,Luke, and Falcon) has faltered to a point a of obscurity in and around the time frame list during the years.

So I say again please if you have something actually tangible to add please do otherwise don't bother.

Ahh the reason Minority books aren't selling is because not enough minorities are buying them logic.

First off--you are dead wrong.

Minorities can't make retailers buy bulk books--even when we buy in good numbers...if a major publisher has an event comic and a retailer has to decide between 20 issues of Minority Girl or 100 issues of Secret Wars to get an incentive book--Minority book will lose.


Tribe the Image comic sold 1 million copies. Why? The Image Brand--for one. And secondly the Publisher's mission statement was we are not conventional--any one of our books you may like. They promoted each Image book equally.
Compare that with the Majors. Do Minority lead/themed books get the same push their main titled characters get on average?


HELL to the IZZNO!


Was the Black Captain America story by KYLE BAKER announced in any media outlets? What about Falcon as Captain America? It doesn't strike you as interesting that the books that did receive some hype--->Miles Spiderman, Muslim Ms.Marvel, Black Superman--actually generated interest.


Watson and Holmes is a deftly written series "AWARD NOMINATED" and where is the traction? I've noticed on twitter writer's push and promote each other's work. Networking is important. Minorities can't go out drinking with creators to network..how can they get in--send them review copies and hope they will promote their book over a friend's?



There are so many factors that you and CSTowle are ignoring.


Race is a factor. And to blame minorities for a bulk of why a book isn't successful is bad logic. IF DC's Vixen doesn't sell well who would you blame--Women? or Minorities? or Minority Women? Its silly.

Elektra isnt selling well--is that white women's fault? Nick Fury Max didn't sell was that white guy's fault? See how ridiculous that logic reads.


I will say it is fascinating that legacy minority characters do better. And I do believe there is some psychological underpinning's that allow readers who wouldn't be interested in reading a minority/female lead comic to give it a chance if the character is cloned from an existing white character. In my thinking its a safe choice--readers know the shadow of the former white hero will fall on the minority character and there will be less chance of social stories reflecting what life is like for the minority character.

A new Minority/Female character has back-story that needs to be told. Minority and female back-stories. That means supporting cast--likely minority. Most minority/female legacy heroes don't have a significant minority supporting cast.

[Holt]

While I disagree with the assertion that there aren't a lot of black readers, there definitely is some merit to the idea that for whatever reason, a lot of black male characters don't have the fanbases that tend to make noise for those people.

Kevin Feige once mentioned that the two most requested new characters for the MCU he saw were Black Panther and Captain Marvel, and it would seem those efforts were successful. But by and large T'Challa seems to be an outlier because most other black dudes don't have that sort of push or support.

Look at how crazy people have gone for Kamala Khan, Kate Bishop, and Ms. America. Spend any amount of time on the internet in fandom circles you're gonna see a crap load of cosplay and fan art of those three. You're gonna see a ton of art and fic for Hulkling and Wiccan. You're gonna see the massive influence of Captain Marvel's Carol Corps. Most black dudes don't have the fandoms that are loud and visible like that.

I mean just to use Patriot as an example, while I have seen cosplayers (some of them really good) it's a lot less than the other teen superheroes I mentioned, and as a whole he seems a lot less popular than the other Young Avengers. Hell there was a bigger push to bring back Speed than there was for Patriot. Even if you look at the Young Avengers threads on here or before they wiped everything, the Patriot discussions always seemed to consist of the same few people making the same points over and over.

I will say it is fascinating that legacy minority characters do better. And I do believe there is some psychological underpinning's that allow readers who wouldn't be interested in reading a minority/female lead comic to give it a chance if the character is cloned from an existing white character. In my thinking its a safe choice--readers know the shadow of the former white hero will fall on the minority character and there will be less chance of social stories reflecting what life is like for the minority character.

A new Minority/Female character has back-story that needs to be told. Minority and female back-stories. That means supporting cast--likely minority. Most minority/female legacy heroes don't have a significant minority supporting cast.

I don't think so at all. Ms. Marvel is a legacy book and it absolutely has a largely minority cast and deals with her Muslim faith and immigrant parents.

And both Blue Beetle and Firestorm also dealt with issues like that, to the extent that I think that might have been one of the things that initially turned off readers (particularly when Blue Beetle did a story about undocumented immigration).

The obvious benefit is that's the sort of thing that gets people interested. There were gay and lesbian heroes before Batwoman but nobody cared, so why did Batwoman get mainstream media coverage and a piece in the New York Times? Because Batman is a massive A-list franchise so having an LGBT hero there is the type of thing that draws headlines.

Same thing with having a black Spider-Man or Captain America or a Muslim Ms. Marvel. That gets people talking because those are existing brands or in the case of Kamala, a title named after the company itself. That's why there was the sudden surge of interest while the people who came before like Faiza Hussain or Night Thrasher did not get that sort of publicity or interest.

[Overhazard]

I'm black and growing up I hated black heroes , those mutha**ks were corny as hell to me. Every time I read a book with black panther he was getting his ass kicked, Cage was cool but at the time he was framed for killing Iron Fist. Never cared for the art on deathlok(picked up the book because ghost rider was on the cover and didn't even know M. Collins was black) Storm looked like a grandma and bishop talked wayyy to "proper" ( again this was the 90's I was into Gangsta rap ect, so I wanted heroes who spoke like me) Rage and night thrasher I did like but they weren't Heavy hitters . So I gravitated towards Ghost rider who is to this day my favorite hero and I still get pissed anytime some one replaces him see Robbie , Female one, hell I was pissed when for no reason they went back to blaze during the Hammer lane.

I didn't even know there were black superheroes when I was a kid. Well I knew about Storm and Blade but I didn't think of storm as black I watched the x men cartoon, and I don't think her ethnicity ever came up outside of being a mutant, and I didn't know blade was a comic book character, let alone a marvel one. The only real comic book I read then was Archie's Sonic the Hedgehog (my library had the singles), which I still read to this day.

I thought lex luthor was black because of the superman cartoon. His skin was darker that most of the other characters, he had big lips, and he was bald, it wasn't that far of a leap. When I look at him I still see a light skinned black man instead of a bald ginger.

Now as an adult, I have a harder time relating to characters that look like me, It's not that I hate Black Panther, Luke Cage, or Miles Morales, I just can't get into them very much, but I know they have their fans.

If I'm being honest, the superhero I can relate to the most is Barry Allen.

[Trident]

While I disagree with the assertion that there aren't a lot of black readers

I only said that it's possibility that they are a smaller amount in comparison to the whole. A point in which I'm not entirely sure of and not stating it as fact. Just think if it were the case it could play into it.

there definitely is some merit to the idea that for whatever reason, a lot of black male characters don't have the fanbases that tend to make noise for those people.

Kevin Feige once mentioned that the two most requested new characters for the MCU he saw were Black Panther and Captain Marvel, and it would seem those efforts were successful. But by and large T'Challa seems to be an outlier because most other black dudes don't have that sort of push or support.

Look at how crazy people have gone for Kamala Khan, Kate Bishop, and Ms. America. Spend any amount of time on the internet in fandom circles you're gonna see a crap load of cosplay and fan art of those three. You're gonna see a ton of art and fic for Hulkling and Wiccan. You're gonna see the massive influence of Captain Marvel's Carol Corps. Most black dudes don't have the fandoms that are loud and visible like that.

I mean just to use Patriot as an example, while I have seen cosplayers (some of them really good) it's a lot less than the other teen superheroes I mentioned, and as a whole he seems a lot less popular than the other Young Avengers. Hell there was a bigger push to bring back Speed than there was for Patriot. Even if you look at the Young Avengers threads on here or before they wiped everything, the Patriot discussions always seemed to consist of the same few people making the same points over and over.



I don't think so at all. Ms. Marvel is a legacy book and it absolutely has a largely minority cast and deals with her Muslim faith and immigrant parents.

And both Blue Beetle and Firestorm also dealt with issues like that, to the extent that I think that might have been one of the things that initially turned off readers (particularly when Blue Beetle did a story about undocumented immigration).

The obvious benefit is that's the sort of thing that gets people interested. There were gay and lesbian heroes before Batwoman but nobody cared, so why did Batwoman get mainstream media coverage and a piece in the New York Times? Because Batman is a massive A-list franchise so having an LGBT hero there is the type of thing that draws headlines.

Same thing with having a black Spider-Man or Captain America or a Muslim Ms. Marvel. That gets people talking because those are existing brands or in the case of Kamala, a title named after the company itself. That's why there was the sudden surge of interest while the people who came before like Faiza Hussain or Night Thrasher did not get that sort of publicity or interest.

The rest of you post I'm in full agreement with.

Now more than ever we are contacted to the products that we receive. The fact that certain characters have grabbed a large fan following that pushes them into stardom is only more proof of that. (Spider Gwen anyone?) Maybe by enlarge if we want guys like Patriot to stand a chance people should start backing him.

Just going to mention again Flint currently staring in Inhuman's could be the next Cassie, Billy, Ted or Kate. But it begins with us on some degree.

[Trident]

Ahh the reason Minority books aren't selling is because not enough minorities are buying them logic.

First off--you are dead wrong.

Minorities can't make retailers buy bulk books--even when we buy in good numbers...if a major publisher has an event comic and a retailer has to decide between 20 issues of Minority Girl or 100 issues of Secret Wars to get an incentive book--Minority book will lose.


Tribe the Image comic sold 1 million copies. Why? The Image Brand--for one. And secondly the Publisher's mission statement was we are not conventional--any one of our books you may like. They promoted each Image book equally.
Compare that with the Majors. Do Minority lead/themed books get the same push their main titled characters get on average?


HELL to the IZZNO!


Was the Black Captain America story by KYLE BAKER announced in any media outlets? What about Falcon as Captain America? It doesn't strike you as interesting that the books that did receive some hype--->Miles Spiderman, Muslim Ms.Marvel, Black Superman--actually generated interest.


Watson and Holmes is a deftly written series "AWARD NOMINATED" and where is the traction? I've noticed on twitter writer's push and promote each other's work. Networking is important. Minorities can't go out drinking with creators to network..how can they get in--send them review copies and hope they will promote their book over a friend's?



There are so many factors that you and CSTowle are ignoring.


Race is a factor. And to blame minorities for a bulk of why a book isn't successful is bad logic. IF DC's Vixen doesn't sell well who would you blame--Women? or Minorities? or Minority Women? Its silly.

Elektra isnt selling well--is that white women's fault? Nick Fury Max didn't sell was that white guy's fault? See how ridiculous that logic reads.


I will say it is fascinating that legacy minority characters do better. And I do believe there is some psychological underpinning's that allow readers who wouldn't be interested in reading a minority/female lead comic to give it a chance if the character is cloned from an existing white character. In my thinking its a safe choice--readers know the shadow of the former white hero will fall on the minority character and there will be less chance of social stories reflecting what life is like for the minority character.

A new Minority/Female character has back-story that needs to be told. Minority and female back-stories. That means supporting cast--likely minority. Most minority/female legacy heroes don't have a significant minority supporting cast.

Only thing worth commenting on in this post is the bold. Race may be a factor but it is the only thing. Thinking as such is only limiting yourself.

I'm also not blaming anyone on anything. There isn't always defined right and wrongs. Sometimes things just are.

[Jumpoff AKA JohnnyBlazed]

I didn't even know there were black superheroes when I was a kid. Well I knew about Storm and Blade but I didn't think of storm as black I watched the x men cartoon, and I don't think her ethnicity ever came up outside of being a mutant, and I didn't know blade was a comic book character, let alone a marvel one. The only real comic book I read then was Archie's Sonic the Hedgehog (my library had the singles), which I still read to this day.

I thought lex luthor was black because of the superman cartoon. His skin was darker that most of the other characters, he had big lips, and he was bald, it wasn't that far of a leap. When I look at him I still see a light skinned black man instead of a bald ginger.

Now as an adult, I have a harder time relating to characters that look like me, It's not that I hate Black Panther, Luke Cage, or Miles Morales, I just can't get into them very much, but I know they have their fans.

If I'm being honest, the superhero I can relate to the most is Barry Allen.

The only real reason I knew there were black heroes is that I lived with in walking distance of a comic shop(it was built when I was going to 6th grade and it was the greatest thing ever) but what really pissed me off is that I used to go there all the time when I was little , going back in my early 20's dudes acted like they never seen a black guy in a comic shop before. Cat really thought I was about to rob him or steal some damn comic books , ain't been back since.

[Smoov-E]

While I disagree with the assertion that there aren't a lot of black readers, there definitely is some merit to the idea that for whatever reason, a lot of black male characters don't have the fanbases that tend to make noise for those people.

They tend to get hit with the hate stick first and foremost as soon as the waters start to get rough, a book gets canceled then it's the black characters fault or the ever popular "they're shoving so and so down our throats" and that one doesn't even have to go to black characters as if you hang out in a Sam Alexander thread for two minutes you'll see that used in a minute followed by how much Rider is better/more well known. The fact that the unfounded hate gets a pass is just as alarming as the usual "well there's just not enough black readers"

Kevin Feige once mentioned that the two most requested new characters for the MCU he saw were Black Panther and Captain Marvel, and it would seem those efforts were successful. But by and large T'Challa seems to be an outlier because most other black dudes don't have that sort of push or support.

I'd say it depends on the black dude as Luke Cage has one and Ewing mentioned how after he started using Blade then suddenly other writers wanted to use him so he gave him up and suddenly those same writers vanished with Ewing and Blade fans going wtf

Look at how crazy people have gone for Kamala Khan, Kate Bishop, and Ms. America.

I don't recall much fandom for Ms. America until she was connected to Wiccan and Kate got hate until the internet fandom darling Gillen came aboard( despite Fraction doing more with the character ). For some fans it just takes their fav writer to make them like a character and there's no bigger example of this then both Ms. America and Prodigy who's name was basically dirt until Gillien came on and connected him to Wiccan and then suddenly the folks questioning why was he added jumped on the Prodigy bandwagon( there's a conspiracy theory that he wanted to do that with Patriot and someone told him no but Prodigy was available and so we basically got two swap outs for Patriot in Prodigy and MS. America )

Spend any amount of time on the internet in fandom circles you're gonna see a crap load of cosplay and fan art of those three. You're gonna see a ton of art and fic for Hulkling and Wiccan. You're gonna see the massive influence of Captain Marvel's Carol Corps. Most black dudes don't have the fandoms that are loud and visible like that.

Again they do it's just folks want to ignore them or beat them down and that can been seen with Miles, Static and Sam fans, if you come to a place and mention your fav characters and you catch hell for it then you're not going to stick around and then the prevalent idea becomes "well there just isn't a fanbase for them cause they're not around"

I mean just to use Patriot as an example, while I have seen cosplayers (some of them really good) it's a lot less than the other teen superheroes I mentioned, and as a whole he seems a lot less popular than the other Young Avengers.

Because of one plot that people choice to take as a example of how he's such a terrible character and he became "toxic", they way people act when he's name is brought up you would think he's Scarlet Witch

Hell there was a bigger push to bring back Speed than there was for Patriot.

Speed is connected to Wiccan who if you go by this forum is the only reason to read YA

Even if you look at the Young Avengers threads on here or before they wiped everything, the Patriot discussions always seemed to consist of the same few people making the same points over and over.

Combined with the same people using the same point over and over as to why he's a terrible character( yet letting other character's screw ups slide cause you know reasons )

I don't think so at all. Ms. Marvel is a legacy book and it absolutely has a largely minority cast and deals with her Muslim faith and immigrant parents.

Which detractors use to say how Marvel is shoving diversity in their face or the ever popular "I can't relate to them because I'm white"

And both Blue Beetle and Firestorm also dealt with issues like that, to the extent that I think that might have been one of the things that initially turned off readers (particularly when Blue Beetle did a story about undocumented immigration).

Yeah it's problematic when characters of color have to deal with something that is uniquely to what a person of color has to deal with in real life, the quote unquote white experience is ok but you touch on a minority topic and suddenly it's "I can't relate"

The obvious benefit is that's the sort of thing that gets people interested. There were gay and lesbian heroes before Batwoman but nobody cared, so why did Batwoman get mainstream media coverage and a piece in the New York Times? Because Batman is a massive A-list franchise so having an LGBT hero there is the type of thing that draws headlines.

Meanwhile for Miles/Kamala/Jamie/Sam it was a bad thing cause Marvel/DC are being politically correct social justice warriors or in Kamala's case she took away from Carol being still Ms. Marvel cause she's not Captain Marvel and her lightning bolt costume was so much better then what she has now

Same thing with having a black Spider-Man or Captain America or a Muslim Ms. Marvel. That gets people talking because those are existing brands or in the case of Kamala, a title named after the company itself. That's why there was the sudden surge of interest while the people who came before like Faiza Hussain or Night Thrasher did not get that sort of publicity or interest.

It depends as I liked Night Trasher when he was away from New Warriors but like Luke Cage( where's Iron Fist? ) you have some fans who just say that he shouldn't be allowed to go beyond their lane and can't branch out which in turn has gotten some writers to feel these characters( using Night Trasher again ) are tied to a nostalgic team

As a kid I related to Static cause he went through stuff I was going through both as a kid and a black kid as well and I see that exact same thing going on with characters like Miles/Jamie/Sam/Kamala now granted not as deep as they went with Static

[Marvell2100]

While I disagree with the assertion that there aren't a lot of black readers, there definitely is some merit to the idea that for whatever reason, a lot of black male characters don't have the fanbases that tend to make noise for those people.

Kevin Feige once mentioned that the two most requested new characters for the MCU he saw were Black Panther and Captain Marvel, and it would seem those efforts were successful. But by and large T'Challa seems to be an outlier because most other black dudes don't have that sort of push or support.

Look at how crazy people have gone for Kamala Khan, Kate Bishop, and Ms. America. Spend any amount of time on the internet in fandom circles you're gonna see a crap load of cosplay and fan art of those three. You're gonna see a ton of art and fic for Hulkling and Wiccan. You're gonna see the massive influence of Captain Marvel's Carol Corps. Most black dudes don't have the fandoms that are loud and visible like that.

I mean just to use Patriot as an example, while I have seen cosplayers (some of them really good) it's a lot less than the other teen superheroes I mentioned, and as a whole he seems a lot less popular than the other Young Avengers. Hell there was a bigger push to bring back Speed than there was for Patriot. Even if you look at the Young Avengers threads on here or before they wiped everything, the Patriot discussions always seemed to consist of the same few people making the same points over and over.



I don't think so at all. Ms. Marvel is a legacy book and it absolutely has a largely minority cast and deals with her Muslim faith and immigrant parents.

And both Blue Beetle and Firestorm also dealt with issues like that, to the extent that I think that might have been one of the things that initially turned off readers (particularly when Blue Beetle did a story about undocumented immigration).

The obvious benefit is that's the sort of thing that gets people interested. There were gay and lesbian heroes before Batwoman but nobody cared, so why did Batwoman get mainstream media coverage and a piece in the New York Times? Because Batman is a massive A-list franchise so having an LGBT hero there is the type of thing that draws headlines.

Same thing with having a black Spider-Man or Captain America or a Muslim Ms. Marvel. That gets people talking because those are existing brands or in the case of Kamala, a title named after the company itself. That's why there was the sudden surge of interest while the people who came before like Faiza Hussain or Night Thrasher did not get that sort of publicity or interest.

Part of the reason for the lack of appeal of some black characters are the characters themselves. They don't get the great storyline, or the cool powers. They are often not the leader of the team or the most powerful. They are quite often labelled "street heroes" and are usually confined to a specific role. And way too many are written as angry.

The problem isn't the black comicbook reader. The problem is certain writers who have a have time creating and writing an interesting, fully developed character who just happens to be black. Most times they create Black characters in the name of diversity without having a clue what to due with them. I give Bendis his due with his Ultimate Spider-Man. Miles Morales is a fantastic character who just happens to be black.